Cold Setting
08-25-20, 05:50 PM
#26
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Agreed. I would never cold set anything outside of a pannier rack. I would never buy a frame that has been tweaked by some guy with 2X4's on his garage floor.
Unfortunately there is a downside- you are increasing the dishing, which is bad. The only solution is to use an off-centered rear rim.
But I re-iterate- there is nothing wrong with that 126mm spacing. Just use a 7 speed HG/UG hub (600-6400, 105-1055, RSX or RX100), 7 speed cassette and RSX, Sora, or Tourney brifters (or Micronew or Microshift). I should know because at this moment I have 4 bikes with 126mm spacing- and 2 of them I have had to re-convert to 126mm hubs because the previous owners (in the case of the Lemond Tourmalet- possibly the factory) stuffed a 130mm hub'ed wheel in there, making it extremely difficult to take the wheel in and out.
Unfortunately there is a downside- you are increasing the dishing, which is bad. The only solution is to use an off-centered rear rim.
But I re-iterate- there is nothing wrong with that 126mm spacing. Just use a 7 speed HG/UG hub (600-6400, 105-1055, RSX or RX100), 7 speed cassette and RSX, Sora, or Tourney brifters (or Micronew or Microshift). I should know because at this moment I have 4 bikes with 126mm spacing- and 2 of them I have had to re-convert to 126mm hubs because the previous owners (in the case of the Lemond Tourmalet- possibly the factory) stuffed a 130mm hub'ed wheel in there, making it extremely difficult to take the wheel in and out.
. Already had picked up a Shimano tri color groupset, then a Suntour sprint with NOS hubs. Figured then, that I wanted brifters and went and picked up a Campy Veloce groupset with wheels. So here I am. Trying to figure out if its safe to cold set or to get the wheel dished after removing the 2mm spacer.
Last edited by Rizaa; 08-25-20 at 06:05 PM.
08-25-20, 05:52 PM
#27
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Our local framebuilder uses his Marchetti frame table, cold sets come out perfect. People think custom frames always come out of brazing perfectly, not so, and if minor corrections are needed they are cold set with proper tooling, not 2x4s. How much difference in the two approaches make is unclear but I choose to believe the custom frames will produce sweeter rides.
08-25-20, 05:53 PM
#28
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for the update on this. I think my delimma came about after I realized that I could only take out 2mm and the wheel slid in easily. So trying to figure out if I should go with cold setting despite removing the 2mm spacer and dishing.
08-25-20, 05:57 PM
#29
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Hey Rizaa I do know that the dropout are perfectly aligned (I set them with my Park dropout alignment tools) so if you just put a slightly wider hub in there, and do the trigonometry, the out of parallel angle should be very small (I used to be able to do that math, but I am just too lazy now a days!)
I would put that 2 mm spacer back in, and just spread the rear with your thumbs, and Bob's your uncle!
I would put that 2 mm spacer back in, and just spread the rear with your thumbs, and Bob's your uncle!
. Thanks for the heads up. Based on my observation, it does look very nicely aligned.
Last edited by Rizaa; 08-25-20 at 06:06 PM.
08-25-20, 06:03 PM
#30
Senior Member
Thread Starter
If it slides in easily with a 2 mm spacer removed, it should slide in with a bit of effort without the spacer removed. That's an option. In theory, you should redish if you remove the spacer. I'm not sure you'd notice a difference. Your wheel will be 1 mm off-center. Personally, I'd prefer cold setting over redishing the wheel.
Last edited by Rizaa; 08-25-20 at 06:18 PM.
08-25-20, 06:11 PM
#31
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Would like to thank everyone for their point of view/feedback. This is what I was looking for to hear everyones experience and knowledge to help me come to a conclusion on how to move forward. I will probably be reaching out to a few more bike shops around the area to see who has the most experience in cold setting with the right tool to make sure everything goes smoothly. Currently there's a wait time of at least two weeks for two of the shops I've talked to. I'll be monitoring for any other feedbacks in the interim.
08-25-20, 06:16 PM
#32
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Good to hear of your experience. I guess both ways could be a hack since requires modification in each case. Thanks for the feedback.
08-25-20, 06:57 PM
#33
Senior Member
It's not a hack to cold set. It's a hack to cold set badly without checking and correcting frame, dropout and hanger alignment. It's a hack to ride the wrong size wheel without cold setting.
Going from 126 to 130 is not a big deal. If you could go back to the late 70s to early 80s, many if not most of the bikes on the starting line of a bike race would have been reset to 126 from 120.
Going from 126 to 130 is not a big deal. If you could go back to the late 70s to early 80s, many if not most of the bikes on the starting line of a bike race would have been reset to 126 from 120.
Last edited by Salamandrine; 08-25-20 at 07:02 PM.
08-25-20, 08:23 PM
#34
Senior Member
Thread Starter
It's not a hack to cold set. It's a hack to cold set badly without checking and correcting frame, dropout and hanger alignment. It's a hack to ride the wrong size wheel without cold setting.
Going from 126 to 130 is not a big deal. If you could go back to the late 70s to early 80s, many if not most of the bikes on the starting line of a bike race would have been reset to 126 from 120.
Going from 126 to 130 is not a big deal. If you could go back to the late 70s to early 80s, many if not most of the bikes on the starting line of a bike race would have been reset to 126 from 120.
Thanks for the info about cold settings from 120-126mm. Seems a standard procedure from back in the day. My knowledge in cold setting is limited and not being able to identify a bad vs good cold setting is what am concerned about. I've read Sheldons guidance on how to measure which is what I'll probably use afterwards for confirmation. I've called two places so far to confirm if they cold set. One uses his hands to cold set and check measurements with tools while other is not using anything for measurement. That latter is out of picture. I'll be calling a few more places to see who has the the most knowledge and experience to make sure the frame does not get damaged due to a bad adjustment.
08-25-20, 08:45 PM
#35
Senior Member
A Park frame straightening tool (AKA Zombie tool) would be used to pull out the rear triangle one side at a time. I guess it could be done with hands, but if you pull the two sides apart at the same time, often one side will bend out more than the other. That's why the next tool is used, a Park frame alignment tool. You could use string, but a bike shop would not have. If you do, use fishing line or thread. That twine on Sheldon's page is not going to be very accurate. When the sides are both moved out the desired amount, 2mm each in your case, and checked with a ruler and frame alignment tool, then the dropouts are realigned, using ... dropout alignment tools. Lastly the derailleur hanger is realigned with a hanger tool. Everything is double checked, and the bike is ready for new wheels.
I realize you don't plan on doing this yourself, but it does give you a list of tools to ask about.
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08-25-20, 10:16 PM
#36
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Maybe I didn’t write clearly the first time- Shimano made/ makes 7 speed brifters. You can absolutely run that 7 speed tri-color groupset with RSX or Sora 7 speed brifters.
08-26-20, 05:27 AM
#37
framebuilder
Rizaa, let me give you a bit more information on steel frame alignment and cold setting. I'm a framebuilder and painter that has aligned hundreds of frames in my long career. I would be surprised if your frame is perfectly aligned. My experience has shown that the majority of steel frame leave the factory or shop somewhat out of true. The exceptions would be some Japanese frames and expensive custom frames. And if a frame is well used something in its history makes it worse. The heat involved in brazing or tig welding pulls the tubes in the direction of wherever the heat is applied. It is the skill of the builder that everything ends up in plane and the dropouts equidistant from that plane. Usually this involves many little cold sets during the build. Because it requires extra time and effort to get it spot on, most frames are usually not. It is a myth that cold setting hurts a frame. For example forks are bent a lot to get its curve.
Properly aligning a frame is not a simple task and requires special tools. Professional builders will have some kind of big accurate surface plate as a foundation to check alignment. This piece of equipment would be very rare in an ordinary bicycle shop. The process starts by taping and facing the bottom bracket shell. Then the frame is attached to the surface plate and each tube is checked to see that it is parallel to the table. It is especially important that the seat tube be 90º to the threads in the BB shell because if it is not, that can put can twist the flats of your pedals putting a strain on your knees. Next the dropouts are checked and adjusted so their inside surface is equidistant from the center of the frame. There are a variety of tools that can check that. Then dropout alignment tools are used to bend the faces parallel to each other and a rear derailleur hanger tool makes sure the derailleur hanger is square with a wheel. After all that adjustment the entire frame should be checked to make sure everything is still right. I don't know any of my colleagues that charge as little as $30 to do a full alignment.
As others have already mentioned, I commonly spread 120 5 speed spacing to 126 6 speed spacing back in the early 80's. When 130 became the standard for 8 speeds (and more) than I was often asked to spread 126 to 130. You would have to look very close to notice any tiny amount of bend in the stays.
Properly aligning a frame is not a simple task and requires special tools. Professional builders will have some kind of big accurate surface plate as a foundation to check alignment. This piece of equipment would be very rare in an ordinary bicycle shop. The process starts by taping and facing the bottom bracket shell. Then the frame is attached to the surface plate and each tube is checked to see that it is parallel to the table. It is especially important that the seat tube be 90º to the threads in the BB shell because if it is not, that can put can twist the flats of your pedals putting a strain on your knees. Next the dropouts are checked and adjusted so their inside surface is equidistant from the center of the frame. There are a variety of tools that can check that. Then dropout alignment tools are used to bend the faces parallel to each other and a rear derailleur hanger tool makes sure the derailleur hanger is square with a wheel. After all that adjustment the entire frame should be checked to make sure everything is still right. I don't know any of my colleagues that charge as little as $30 to do a full alignment.
As others have already mentioned, I commonly spread 120 5 speed spacing to 126 6 speed spacing back in the early 80's. When 130 became the standard for 8 speeds (and more) than I was often asked to spread 126 to 130. You would have to look very close to notice any tiny amount of bend in the stays.
08-26-20, 07:57 AM
#38
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I would probably cold-set, if the guy is going to guarantee he sets alignment correctly. If it really isn't hard to get the 130 wheel in, I would get or make a dropout alignment tool and at least get the drops parallel.
08-26-20, 09:42 AM
#39
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My apologies for overlooking the information that you had provided. You are correct. I just checked and there is a 7 speed brifter option using RX and RSX 100 series. This throws another wrench in my situation now..lol. I now have two options to go with since have two complete group sets. one Shimano Tri-color 7 speed and the other with Campy Veloce 8 speed after a cold set.
08-26-20, 09:44 AM
#40
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Yeah, very common and very standard in bike shops BITD. I did it all the time. To do it professionally, normally a shop would do something like the following:
A Park frame straightening tool (AKA Zombie tool) would be used to pull out the rear triangle one side at a time. I guess it could be done with hands, but if you pull the two sides apart at the same time, often one side will bend out more than the other. That's why the next tool is used, a Park frame alignment tool. You could use string, but a bike shop would not have. If you do, use fishing line or thread. That twine on Sheldon's page is not going to be very accurate. When the sides are both moved out the desired amount, 2mm each in your case, and checked with a ruler and frame alignment tool, then the dropouts are realigned, using ... dropout alignment tools. Lastly the derailleur hanger is realigned with a hanger tool. Everything is double checked, and the bike is ready for new wheels.
I realize you don't plan on doing this yourself, but it does give you a list of tools to ask about.
A Park frame straightening tool (AKA Zombie tool) would be used to pull out the rear triangle one side at a time. I guess it could be done with hands, but if you pull the two sides apart at the same time, often one side will bend out more than the other. That's why the next tool is used, a Park frame alignment tool. You could use string, but a bike shop would not have. If you do, use fishing line or thread. That twine on Sheldon's page is not going to be very accurate. When the sides are both moved out the desired amount, 2mm each in your case, and checked with a ruler and frame alignment tool, then the dropouts are realigned, using ... dropout alignment tools. Lastly the derailleur hanger is realigned with a hanger tool. Everything is double checked, and the bike is ready for new wheels.
I realize you don't plan on doing this yourself, but it does give you a list of tools to ask about.
08-26-20, 11:23 AM
#41
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Agree! On one hand you need to find an expert in cold-setting and related alignment. On the other hand you need to find en expert on chainline, dishing wheels, and resolvint any related truiing issues.
08-26-20, 01:26 PM
#42
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You don't need an "expert" to center a rim. You don't even need a rim-centering gauge. Chainline is an issue no matter what option you choose, since you're employing more cogs than what the bike had originally.
08-26-20, 01:29 PM
#43
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Rizaa, let me give you a bit more information on steel frame alignment and cold setting. I'm a framebuilder and painter that has aligned hundreds of frames in my long career. I would be surprised if your frame is perfectly aligned. My experience has shown that the majority of steel frame leave the factory or shop somewhat out of true. The exceptions would be some Japanese frames and expensive custom frames. And if a frame is well used something in its history makes it worse. The heat involved in brazing or tig welding pulls the tubes in the direction of wherever the heat is applied. It is the skill of the builder that everything ends up in plane and the dropouts equidistant from that plane. Usually this involves many little cold sets during the build. Because it requires extra time and effort to get it spot on, most frames are usually not. It is a myth that cold setting hurts a frame. For example forks are bent a lot to get its curve.
Properly aligning a frame is not a simple task and requires special tools. Professional builders will have some kind of big accurate surface plate as a foundation to check alignment. This piece of equipment would be very rare in an ordinary bicycle shop. The process starts by taping and facing the bottom bracket shell. Then the frame is attached to the surface plate and each tube is checked to see that it is parallel to the table. It is especially important that the seat tube be 90º to the threads in the BB shell because if it is not, that can put can twist the flats of your pedals putting a strain on your knees. Next the dropouts are checked and adjusted so their inside surface is equidistant from the center of the frame. There are a variety of tools that can check that. Then dropout alignment tools are used to bend the faces parallel to each other and a rear derailleur hanger tool makes sure the derailleur hanger is square with a wheel. After all that adjustment the entire frame should be checked to make sure everything is still right. I don't know any of my colleagues that charge as little as $30 to do a full alignment.
As others have already mentioned, I commonly spread 120 5 speed spacing to 126 6 speed spacing back in the early 80's. When 130 became the standard for 8 speeds (and more) than I was often asked to spread 126 to 130. You would have to look very close to notice any tiny amount of bend in the stays.
Properly aligning a frame is not a simple task and requires special tools. Professional builders will have some kind of big accurate surface plate as a foundation to check alignment. This piece of equipment would be very rare in an ordinary bicycle shop. The process starts by taping and facing the bottom bracket shell. Then the frame is attached to the surface plate and each tube is checked to see that it is parallel to the table. It is especially important that the seat tube be 90º to the threads in the BB shell because if it is not, that can put can twist the flats of your pedals putting a strain on your knees. Next the dropouts are checked and adjusted so their inside surface is equidistant from the center of the frame. There are a variety of tools that can check that. Then dropout alignment tools are used to bend the faces parallel to each other and a rear derailleur hanger tool makes sure the derailleur hanger is square with a wheel. After all that adjustment the entire frame should be checked to make sure everything is still right. I don't know any of my colleagues that charge as little as $30 to do a full alignment.
As others have already mentioned, I commonly spread 120 5 speed spacing to 126 6 speed spacing back in the early 80's. When 130 became the standard for 8 speeds (and more) than I was often asked to spread 126 to 130. You would have to look very close to notice any tiny amount of bend in the stays.
08-26-20, 01:30 PM
#44
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Thats what it seems like and thanks for you guys pointing that out. It seems they're willing to dish but not go down the road of cold setting except for the first two shops I called.
08-26-20, 01:32 PM
#45
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08-26-20, 02:06 PM
#46
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How about 120mm to 135mm? 
Has that been done successfully?
Has that been done successfully?
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08-26-20, 02:30 PM
#47
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Yes I just did it on my 1971 Raleigh Super Course. It's not all that drastic.
I've used a wider wheel than the frame was made for but the problem with doing that is that the dropouts won't be parallel, so it's better to cold set it even if the difference is small.
And doing it yourself isn't very hard. Use the string measuring method. Bend with a long 2x4. It helps to have a second pair of hands with you.
I've used a wider wheel than the frame was made for but the problem with doing that is that the dropouts won't be parallel, so it's better to cold set it even if the difference is small.
And doing it yourself isn't very hard. Use the string measuring method. Bend with a long 2x4. It helps to have a second pair of hands with you.
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08-26-20, 03:57 PM
#48
Senior Member
I always considered cold setting a hack, I would not do it or want a frame it was done to. Too much room for imperfection, and I'd rather not have bent seat and chain stays anyway.
There's no downside to giving the remove spacer / re-center the rim method a whirl though.
There's no downside to giving the remove spacer / re-center the rim method a whirl though.
08-26-20, 04:23 PM
#49
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Yes I just did it on my 1971 Raleigh Super Course. It's not all that drastic.
I've used a wider wheel than the frame was made for but the problem with doing that is that the dropouts won't be parallel, so it's better to cold set it even if the difference is small.
And doing it yourself isn't very hard. Use the string measuring method. Bend with a long 2x4. It helps to have a second pair of hands with you.
I've used a wider wheel than the frame was made for but the problem with doing that is that the dropouts won't be parallel, so it's better to cold set it even if the difference is small.
And doing it yourself isn't very hard. Use the string measuring method. Bend with a long 2x4. It helps to have a second pair of hands with you.
One of the 4 bikes I am embarking on, all concurrent, is a 1974 Falcon, seems like a nice frame. My daydream is outfit it with nice period components, but an Alfine hub (hence 135mm).
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08-26-20, 04:27 PM
#50
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@tiger1964, you can make dropout alignment tools with common materials. I haven't done it, but you can find someone to tell you how. The same is true of a derailleur hanger alignment tool. I just bought the Park tools, and I don't regret it.
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