Crack near bottom bracket shell - don't buy?
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Crack near bottom bracket shell - don't buy?
I have the opportunity to buy an Alan Carbonio frame. It has a tiny crack here:
How worrying is that? Deal-breaker? Leg-breaker?
Guidance appreciated!
How worrying is that? Deal-breaker? Leg-breaker?
Guidance appreciated!
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 14,101
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4494 Post(s)
Liked 6,300 Times
in
3,633 Posts
Likes For merziac:
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,600
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18320 Post(s)
Liked 4,489 Times
in
3,338 Posts
You're sure it is a crack and not a scratch?
For a display bike/frame... sure.
If you're planning on riding the bike more than around the block at a show... don't do it.
For a display bike/frame... sure.
If you're planning on riding the bike more than around the block at a show... don't do it.
#4
WGB
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 5,655
Bikes: Panasonic PT-4500
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1783 Post(s)
Liked 2,305 Times
in
1,365 Posts
@Funktopus - Call around and try to find someone who can repair one of these frames. I had a similar opportunity on one with the crack at the top. I couldn't find anyone who would/could replace one (ALAN with "screw and glue" lugs??). I was told I could mail it to Italy and there might have been someone in the USA who could do it. Either way, if you find that person and get a quote, add it to the price of the frame and see if it's worth it. I walked from the one I saw at $50 Canadian.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,600
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18320 Post(s)
Liked 4,489 Times
in
3,338 Posts
I think there were companies specializing in Alan or Vitus Aluminum repairs. But, start with say a $100 frame... invest a few hundred bucks in the repair, and you have an expensive frame. Might as well start with the one you want.
The only way I'd personally touch that one is if I had FREE access to a 4 or 5 axis CNC, or perhaps wanted to try lost wax casting.
Student Project?
But, then again, who knows.
The only way I'd personally touch that one is if I had FREE access to a 4 or 5 axis CNC, or perhaps wanted to try lost wax casting.
Student Project?
But, then again, who knows.
#6
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,691
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 510 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7287 Post(s)
Liked 2,365 Times
in
1,382 Posts
She's dead, Jim.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Likes For noglider:
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Medford MA
Posts: 2,092
Bikes: Ron Cooper touring, 1959 Jack Taylor 650b ladyback touring tandem, Vitus 979, Joe Bell painted Claud Butler Dalesman, Colin Laing curved tube tandem, heavily-Dilberted 1982 Trek 6xx, René Herse tandem
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 964 Post(s)
Liked 1,450 Times
in
723 Posts
It's likely irreparable and will likely grow. That said, if it were $free, I'd probably put some components on it and ride it a few times just for kicks (with routine inspection at every traffic light; electric blue sharpie on the cracked area to reveal any growth).
Likely irreparable: the lugs are cast aluminum, which (depending on the alloy) ranges from "can't be welded; falls apart in crumbly mess when you try" to "likely weldable but only by an expert". Regardless, you'd have to get the other tubes out for a repair, because the epoxy bonding can't take the heat that welding would bring, even if you were to use an extensive heat sink or submerge the rest of the frame underwater (which no sane welder would agree to do).
Likely will grow: just my intuition. It is a crack in a casting that is under tension due to the tapered threads on the chainstay ends which are screwed into that lug and likely force that crack open. That's why I think Vitus frames are better designed. They put the castings under compression and the tubes under tension at the joints.
Likely irreparable: the lugs are cast aluminum, which (depending on the alloy) ranges from "can't be welded; falls apart in crumbly mess when you try" to "likely weldable but only by an expert". Regardless, you'd have to get the other tubes out for a repair, because the epoxy bonding can't take the heat that welding would bring, even if you were to use an extensive heat sink or submerge the rest of the frame underwater (which no sane welder would agree to do).
Likely will grow: just my intuition. It is a crack in a casting that is under tension due to the tapered threads on the chainstay ends which are screwed into that lug and likely force that crack open. That's why I think Vitus frames are better designed. They put the castings under compression and the tubes under tension at the joints.
__________________
Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 14,101
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4494 Post(s)
Liked 6,300 Times
in
3,633 Posts
It's likely irreparable and will likely grow. That said, if it were $free, I'd probably put some components on it and ride it a few times just for kicks (with routine inspection at every traffic light; electric blue sharpie on the cracked area to reveal any growth).
Likely irreparable: the lugs are cast aluminum, which (depending on the alloy) ranges from "can't be welded; falls apart in crumbly mess when you try" to "likely weldable but only by an expert". Regardless, you'd have to get the other tubes out for a repair, because the epoxy bonding can't take the heat that welding would bring, even if you were to use an extensive heat sink or submerge the rest of the frame underwater (which no sane welder would agree to do).
Likely will grow: just my intuition. It is a crack in a casting that is under tension due to the tapered threads on the chainstay ends which are screwed into that lug and likely force that crack open. That's why I think Vitus frames are better designed. They put the castings under compression and the tubes under tension at the joints.
Likely irreparable: the lugs are cast aluminum, which (depending on the alloy) ranges from "can't be welded; falls apart in crumbly mess when you try" to "likely weldable but only by an expert". Regardless, you'd have to get the other tubes out for a repair, because the epoxy bonding can't take the heat that welding would bring, even if you were to use an extensive heat sink or submerge the rest of the frame underwater (which no sane welder would agree to do).
Likely will grow: just my intuition. It is a crack in a casting that is under tension due to the tapered threads on the chainstay ends which are screwed into that lug and likely force that crack open. That's why I think Vitus frames are better designed. They put the castings under compression and the tubes under tension at the joints.
Likes For merziac:
#9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
As usual, thanks for the excellent advice from all of you guys. Not what I was hoping to hear, but definitely what I needed to hear!
Including postage this frame is going for £80, and the Carbonio ticks a lot of boxes for me. I love my Vitus 787 and want more like it, I've been looking for an early example of a carbon frame for a while, and I've been meaning to try a slightly larger frame with a longer top tube. But it was all too good to be true. There's another sweet deal out there waiting to be found.
Including postage this frame is going for £80, and the Carbonio ticks a lot of boxes for me. I love my Vitus 787 and want more like it, I've been looking for an early example of a carbon frame for a while, and I've been meaning to try a slightly larger frame with a longer top tube. But it was all too good to be true. There's another sweet deal out there waiting to be found.
#10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
@Funktopus - Call around and try to find someone who can repair one of these frames. I had a similar opportunity on one with the crack at the top. I couldn't find anyone who would/could replace one (ALAN with "screw and glue" lugs??). I was told I could mail it to Italy and there might have been someone in the USA who could do it. Either way, if you find that person and get a quote, add it to the price of the frame and see if it's worth it. I walked from the one I saw at $50 Canadian.
Would also love to take the frame to Italy for a repair, but even from the UK that's a trek. France is only a few hours from where I live though, if this were a Vitus it might have all been a different story!
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,600
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18320 Post(s)
Liked 4,489 Times
in
3,338 Posts
I believe Alan has transitioned to all welded frames. I doubt taking it to the factory would help. Just speciality restoration shops.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada - burrrrr!
Posts: 11,672
Bikes: 1958 Rabeneick 120D, 1968 Legnano Gran Premio, 196? Torpado Professional, 2000 Marinoni Piuma
Mentioned: 210 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1370 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,743 Times
in
934 Posts
That is a crack and not all that uncommon on glued frame sets. Even the glued and screwed ones lean towards failure. That frame is toast and should not be trusted, particularly in the bottom bracket area.
__________________
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".