johngwheeler

I'm looking at some new bike options and deciding whether to go with Shimano 105 or Ultegra. I'm trying to work out what a reasonable premium is to pay for the Ultegra.

Generally the entire groupset with rim brakes seems to be about AU$200 more for Ultegra (maybe US$150?), but the models I'm looking at have disk brakes, which seems to really increase the price; The RS685 brakes alone can cost AU$1000! RS505 for 105 cost AU$650 - Yikes! This is more than the cost of the entire groupset with caliper brakes.

So what would be a reasonable upgrade price to pay on a new bike with Ultegra 6800 cassette, chain, derailleurs, chainrings, cranks & RS685 hydro disk brakes & brifters, compared to 105 with the RS505 brakes?

The AU$350 increase between the two disk brakes systems is quite signifiant. Would an AU$500 differential be reasonable? Is there really that much difference in performance between the two systems? (105 + RS505 vs Ultegra + RS685)

The bike I'm looking at is the Focus Paralane. List price is AU$3800 for 105 and AU$4800 for Ultegra. The more expensive bike also has DT Swiss R23 wheels instead of Fulcrum CEX 7 (which I understand to be similar to Fulcrum Racing 5). There is maybe an AU$200 uptick in wheel set price.

If these are the only changes, then it doesn't look like it's worth paying AU$1000 for Ultegra and slightly better wheels.

Unless I'm failing to understand something....


Thanks!

Dyskolos

My opinion is that 105 yields the best cost/benefit analysis for a club rider. If you are a sponsored racer then my opinion would be different and you likely wouldn't be asking anyway. Ultegra is slightly lighter, and arguably slightly less robust, and I prefer making improvements in the engine, and reductions in rider weight if needed, rather than marginal reductions in equipment weight.

europa

All else being equal, 105 are a very good groupset, Ultregra a bit better.
If all you can afford is 105, you'll be very happy. If you can afford (and can justify) Ultegra, go for it.

Boondocksaints

Not worth $1,000 more. 105 is just slightly heavier.

demoncyclist

The US website lists the difference between the two models as $500. For that price difference, I would go with the Ultegra gruppo and the better wheels every time.

europa

It's always dangerous to read Australian prices and think US prices. It's not just the difference in the Aussie peso compared to the US greenback, it's also the pathetic state of the Australian bike industry which has been trying frantically to become irrelevant for over a decade... and is so inefficient, it still can't manage it. For example, I was in a Merida shop last month (June) and was informed that no CX bikes would be available until November - I'm not sure that'd be accepted in the US.

Anyway, I'm just ranting. If he can afford and justify the extra cost, I agree with you, go for Ultegra.

bradtx

Unless you are a very serious cyclist, the 105 equipped bike will be fine. You can upgrade the wheels at a later time and keep the OEM ones for training rides.

I generally build my bikes with Ultegra, some have been 105 and others D-A. I've also had OEM equipped bikes with lower tier Shimano groups and they performed well, but from experience, the 105 is the value leader of the three upper tier Shimano offerings.

Brad

hhnngg1

Agree - 105 is the best value; performs pretty much the equal of DA/ultegra and only weighs a tiny bit more, but costs $500 lest.

The current-gen Tiagra is probably equal in design and performance to 105, but its 10, not 11 speed so you can't upgrade it by swapping parts with 105/DA/ultegra. I think they keep it around for guys like me that still have good functional 10speed parts that I don't want to just give up, so it's worth using the Tiagra 10sp parts rather than going full 11-spd upgrade.

noglider 

The performance difference is insignificant, and the wholesale cost is, too, so it's all profit. I wouldn't pay the premium.

The one exception I might make is in the hubs. I like really good hubs, but I don't know the difference in the construction of the two models. If the better hubs have harder cones and races, I might get them. But I've found that low model Shimano hubs are very good, so I might not.

johngwheeler

I don't think the real world difference is as much as US$500. Here are some prices from one UK vendor that offered the exact groupsets (same brakes) as the Focus Paralane options:

105 Disk Brake Groupset: https://www.merlincycles.com/shimano...set-89849.html

AU$744 (RRP$850)

Ultegra Disk Brake Gropuset: https://www.merlincycles.com/shimano...set-83417.html
AU$1,041 (RRP AU$1558)

There's a big difference if you pay full retail (about US$545), but less comparing these smaller discounted prices, (which seem pretty widespread) - only about US$229 in this case.

The wheels are Fulcrum CEX 7.0 vs DT Swiss R23. I can't find much information about these Fulcrum wheels (some OEM version), but read they are similar Fulcrum Racing 5s (which I have on another bike). The DT Swiss wheels are about $AU200 more expensive for the wheel set (from Wiggle)

So it would it appear to be about an AU$500 difference in total.

Does not seem worth the AU$1000 increase in retail price to me! As far as I can tell from the spec sheet, these are the only differences between the bikes. In fact, I don't know how Fulcrum can justify it!

I'm curious whether other bikes have this large a markup on Ultegra over 105. I know there are always other differences (wheels being a large proportion), but in this case it just looks like a bad deal.

Only problem is I don't like the colour of the 105-model bike!

johngwheeler

Good to know. The seems to be a significant profit for Shimano then, but an even bigger one for the bike manufacturer (Focus in this case) who appear to be charging AU$800 for the privilege of Ultegra (the better wheels cost about AU$200 more).

I can't justify Ultegra at this price, but I would happily pay the difference in wholesale price - which I doubt is very significant.

BKE

So all along you've known the answer to your question.

johngwheeler

LOL! I don't know if dislike it enough to spend $1000 though....I don't look at the bike when I'm riding it :-)

kkm

One thing worth mentioning is integrated shifters for hydro brakes are different, and personally I find Ultegra ones much more comfortable. The ones that come with 105 have some hydraulic units on the inside of the handle, like there are dice under the rubber hoods that press on my palm. Ultegra handles do not have them. May be an issue with my hand position that may not affect you at all.This is the piece that I would upgrade on my bike with the 105 set, if the price on these was not so steep. Pay attention to this feature before you buy. Otherwise, both groupsets are very comparable. Also, as far as I know, all components in the two sets mix and match.

johngwheeler

Thanks for the warning; I wasn't aware of this difference. I guess I'll need to try both 105 and Ultegra and pay attention to this factor.

Dirt Farmer

Did you just recently buy a new bike? What happened to that one?

johngwheeler

I bought a CX bike in March, but I'm looking at endurance road bikes for my N+1. Still very much in the "exploration stage" trying to work out what I like in terms of geometry and bike features. I'm going to take my time, try as many bikes as I can, and make a more studied decision that my previous impulse purchases!

The Shimano 105 vs Ultegra decision (or Shimano vs SRAM for that matter) is one of the factors I'm studying.

longbeachgary

The extra cost for Ultegra is insignificant over the life of the bike.

johngwheeler

If it were to cost $150-300, I'd probably agree with you, assuming a $2000 bike. But at $500-700, I wouldn't call it insignificant.

I've pretty much decided for the bike I was looking at (Focus Paralane) that the Ultegra option represent poor value. I would pay AU$500 more for Ultegra and upgraded wheels (and I'm talking a $150 wheel upgrade), but not AU$1000.

Maybe I can find a deal - because I would expect that many other potential buyers will be doing the same calculation and not buying the Ultegra version of this bike at full retail price, and discounts will be possible.

hhnngg1

The cost of nearly anything, even eTAP at $1200+, can be arguably 'insignificant' over the cost of a 20 year old bike.

The cost difference of nearly $500 for ultegra vs 105 is significant to most.

BKE

You make a good point, my reply was mostly to throw in some humor but to some the color thing would be a major factor.

Either while out on a ride Sat. or while watching the Tour afterwards (not sure which) this popped into my mind and I was asking myself if I would ride an ugly bike that was a great deal (price/fit/quality components) and I said "yes".

jsdavis

Dunno about the cups and cones, but Ultegra hubs and higher hubs use aluminum axle while 105 and lower use steel axles.

noglider 

I have heard that about aluminum axles. Doesn't sound like a good idea, but maybe it works fine. Aluminum cups and cones would be insane, though. So if they are durable, I guess that's a reason to prefer Ultegra, but if not, I'd prefer steel axles.

longbeachgary

Listen, if the addional cost is not worth it to you then it's not worth it. To me, the extra money for Dura-Ace and upgraded wheels over Ultegra or 105 is worth it and my kids and grandkids are not starving because of it.

johngwheeler

Just to re-iterate, my question is not whether a 105 to Ultegra upgrade is inherently "worth it", but rather how much would you expect to pay for the upgrade from a bike manufacturer.

Presumably the manufacturers can get the components from Shimano at wholesale cost, and the larger brands may well have some kind of deal with Shimano to get good bulk prices.

Even paying as a consumer, it's possible to narrow down the price differential for an entire hydro-disk brake groupset to about US$250. I wouldn't expect to pay more than than that for the same bike that has an upgrade from 105 to Ultegra.

What I think I'm seeing is significantly larger price differentials from many manufacturers. Of course, there are nearly always other upgrades when you go to the more expensive bike, in particularly better wheel sets.

My concern is that when you go through the component list and add up the cost differences that there is a tendency for manufacturers to charge more than the component cost. This would certainly appear to be the case with Focus.

As a consumer the attraction of buying the upgrade "up front", is that you will pay less for it than upgrading yourself (and maybe selling on the original parts). If it's more expensive to do this - they why would you bother?

You can see that I'm trying to convince myself that the up-grade is worth it - but I'm not going to do this on emotional feel - I want the numbers!