Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Just clear coat?

Old 12-07-19, 04:11 PM
  #1  
delbiker1 
Mother Nature's Son
Thread Starter
 
delbiker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sussex County, Delaware
Posts: 3,111

Bikes: 2014 Orbea Avant MD30, 2004 Airborne Zeppelin TI, 2003 Lemond Poprad, 2001 Lemond Tourmalet, 2014? Soma Smoothie

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 838 Post(s)
Liked 1,414 Times in 801 Posts
Just clear coat?

I have some pix attached. I disassembled a 2001 Lemond tourmalet to the frame and fork, and then stripped them to bare metal. I was planning on having them powder coated. However, today I was wet sanding, 800 grit, and I like the looks with the bare metal. There are some obvious dents and scratches/imperfections that will not be fixed or hidden with just the clear coat, but I think they will just show the many miles and hard use the bike has endured, and preserve some character. The components the bike came with; mix of Tiagra, Sora and Ultegra, can be cleaned and polished to look better, but are still going to have the well used look. My plans for the bike are to ride it a lot and have it as a traveling bike. So, I am looking for any thoughts, comments or ideas you all would like to throw out here. You can see the dent on the seat tube above the braze ons, and also one on the drive side seat stay. A couple other small ones elsewhere along with minor scratches.






delbiker1 is offline  
Old 12-07-19, 05:23 PM
  #2  
dsaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 2,258
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 712 Post(s)
Liked 793 Times in 471 Posts
It will rust under the clear. It's been tried many times and it may last a few years before the rust starts, but there will eventually be rust spidering under the clear. It's one of the more common requests that people make of framebuilders. I built a frame for a close friend that wanted to clear coat it. I was able to talk him out of the clear coat and coated the bare frame with a light coat of Frame Saver. He doesn't take it out in the rain and it still looks very nice 5 years later. He told me that it occasionally gets a spot of rust and he just cleans it with scotch brite and applies more wax.

If you decide to go with powder coating, The guy I use for my frames is experienced with bike frames and his prices are reasonable. It's not too far from you in South Jersey..

Last edited by dsaul; 12-07-19 at 05:31 PM.
dsaul is offline  
Old 12-07-19, 07:35 PM
  #3  
livedarklions
Tragically Ignorant
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,094 Times in 5,053 Posts
Originally Posted by dsaul
It will rust under the clear. It's been tried many times and it may last a few years before the rust starts, but there will eventually be rust spidering under the clear. It's one of the more common requests that people make of framebuilders. I built a frame for a close friend that wanted to clear coat it. I was able to talk him out of the clear coat and coated the bare frame with a light coat of Frame Saver. He doesn't take it out in the rain and it still looks very nice 5 years later. He told me that it occasionally gets a spot of rust and he just cleans it with scotch brite and applies more wax.

If you decide to go with powder coating, The guy I use for my frames is experienced with bike frames and his prices are reasonable. It's not too far from you in South Jersey..
Just out of curiosity, does it rust more with clear coat than it does with colored paint, or is it just that the rust shows under the clear coat and doesn't under color?
livedarklions is offline  
Old 12-07-19, 07:37 PM
  #4  
Fred123141
Junior Member
 
Fred123141's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Clean

Nice
Fred123141 is offline  
Old 12-07-19, 07:46 PM
  #5  
Unca_Sam
The dropped
 
Unca_Sam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,406

Bikes: Pake C'Mute Touring/Commuter Build, 1989 Kona Cinder Cone, 1995 Trek 5200, 1973 Raleigh Super Course FG, 1960/61 Montgomery Ward Hawthorne "thrift" 3 speed, by Hercules (sold) : 1966 Schwinn Deluxe Racer (sold)

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1739 Post(s)
Liked 1,014 Times in 696 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions
Just out of curiosity, does it rust more with clear coat than it does with colored paint, or is it just that the rust shows under the clear coat and doesn't under color?
It's a matter of bonding. Steel wants to rust, all it needs is oxygen. Applying a clear coat without primer actually traps air under the paint, right against the steel. The supply is limited, so it's a slow process. Once the clear is breached by the rust, it can spread through the paths of least resistance under.

Powdercoat and paint get around this with primer, which is unfortunately opaque. The primer contains a chemical that etches or stabilizes the steel. It works because it forms a film over the steel and removes or converts the microscopic rust molecules.
I'd imagine that there's a method to apply a clear durable rust preventive coating, but it's likely not clear coat as we'd know it.
Unca_Sam is offline  
Likes For Unca_Sam:
Old 12-07-19, 07:55 PM
  #6  
dsaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 2,258
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 712 Post(s)
Liked 793 Times in 471 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions
Just out of curiosity, does it rust more with clear coat than it does with colored paint, or is it just that the rust shows under the clear coat and doesn't under color?
My understanding is that it will rust the same under colored powder coat, if no primer is used. The rust is not enough to cause damage to the metal, but is unattractive under the clear. If a color coat is being applied, various rust preventative coatings can be applied under the color.
dsaul is offline  
Likes For dsaul:
Old 12-07-19, 09:53 PM
  #7  
delbiker1 
Mother Nature's Son
Thread Starter
 
delbiker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sussex County, Delaware
Posts: 3,111

Bikes: 2014 Orbea Avant MD30, 2004 Airborne Zeppelin TI, 2003 Lemond Poprad, 2001 Lemond Tourmalet, 2014? Soma Smoothie

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 838 Post(s)
Liked 1,414 Times in 801 Posts
Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
It's a matter of bonding. Steel wants to rust, all it needs is oxygen. Applying a clear coat without primer actually traps air under the paint, right against the steel. The supply is limited, so it's a slow process. Once the clear is breached by the rust, it can spread through the paths of least resistance under.

Powdercoat and paint get around this with primer, which is unfortunately opaque. The primer contains a chemical that etches or stabilizes the steel. It works because it forms a film over the steel and removes or converts the microscopic rust molecules.
I'd imagine that there's a method to apply a clear durable rust preventive coating, but it's likely not clear coat as we'd know it.
Unca Sam, thanks for that explanation, it does make sense. I was wondering why the steel would rust under the clear coat. My thoughts were that if oxygen and moisture are not getting to the steel, it would not rust. I did not think of oxygen being trapped by the clear coat, or the chemical reaction of primer with the steel to prevent that. I am going to come up with a different plan. Early this year I had a frame/fork powder coated by a local guy. He did a great job. Now I am thinking a single stage powder with a color similar to the bare steel. No hurry, I have time to ponder that.
delbiker1 is offline  
Old 12-08-19, 08:35 AM
  #8  
skidder
Pennylane Splitter
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 1,873

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1751 Post(s)
Liked 1,422 Times in 973 Posts
I believe there's a 'clear coat' powdercoat available now, ask at your local powdercoating shop. It goes on white, but comes out of the oven as a 'clear' finish (slightly opaque). There are also some metallic finishes that look like bare steel/aluminum, also some that look like the frame has been anodized.
skidder is offline  
Old 12-08-19, 10:26 AM
  #9  
Speedway2
Senior Member
 
Speedway2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Thornhill, Canada
Posts: 748

Bikes: United Motocross BMX, Specialized Langster, Giant OCR, Marin Muirwoods, Globe Roll2, VROD:)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 236 Post(s)
Liked 401 Times in 243 Posts
This pic of my Langster doesn't clearly show the "raw look" of the frame but whatever Specialized did....it looks good!
Op....if it can be done....do it!
Speedway2 is offline  
Old 12-08-19, 10:36 AM
  #10  
indyfabz
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,063
Mentioned: 210 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18321 Post(s)
Liked 15,302 Times in 7,232 Posts
Might want to check out what Cerakote has to offer. I know they make several clear coatings, but I don’t know if they are for use in steel.

My ti frame has a colored Cerakote finish.
indyfabz is offline  
Old 12-08-19, 10:50 AM
  #11  
_ForceD_
Sr Member on Sr bikes
 
_ForceD_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Rhode Island (sometimes in SE Florida)
Posts: 2,307

Bikes: Several...from old junk to new all-carbon.

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1012 Post(s)
Liked 762 Times in 409 Posts
As mentioned above...there is the possibility of clear powder coating. Link: https://www.fullblowncoatings.com/wh...owder-coating/

Dan
_ForceD_ is online now  
Old 12-08-19, 08:39 PM
  #12  
greatscott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Indiana
Posts: 592

Bikes: 1984 Fuji Club, Suntour ARX; 2013 Lynskey Peloton, mostly 105 with Ultegra rear derailleur, Enve 2.0 fork; 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c, full Deore with TRP dual piston mech disk brakes

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 324 Post(s)
Liked 81 Times in 71 Posts
Originally Posted by dsaul
It will rust under the clear. It's been tried many times and it may last a few years before the rust starts, but there will eventually be rust spidering under the clear. It's one of the more common requests that people make of framebuilders. I built a frame for a close friend that wanted to clear coat it. I was able to talk him out of the clear coat and coated the bare frame with a light coat of Frame Saver. He doesn't take it out in the rain and it still looks very nice 5 years later. He told me that it occasionally gets a spot of rust and he just cleans it with scotch brite and applies more wax.

If you decide to go with powder coating, The guy use for my frames is experienced with bike frames and his prices are reasonable. It's not too far from you in South Jersey..
how do you use JP Weigle Frame Saver on the outside of the frame on the metal exposed surfaces? that stuff is a sticky oil type of substance, not unlike linseed oil, and all matter of dirt and bugs will become attached to the frame as you ride, so please explain how you coated the external frame and had it stay without being tacky.
greatscott is offline  
Old 12-09-19, 04:20 AM
  #13  
dsaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 2,258
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 712 Post(s)
Liked 793 Times in 471 Posts
Originally Posted by greatscott
how do you use JP Weigle Frame Saver on the outside of the frame on the metal exposed surfaces? that stuff is a sticky oil type of substance, not unlike linseed oil, and all matter of dirt and bugs will become attached to the frame as you ride, so please explain how you coated the external frame and had it stay without being tacky.
You spray it on a rag and wipe the frame with it. It just leaves a thin layer of wax behind that can be buffed with a dry cloth after it dries.
dsaul is offline  
Old 12-09-19, 04:45 AM
  #14  
wolfchild
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,721

Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4227 Post(s)
Liked 2,488 Times in 1,286 Posts
Originally Posted by greatscott
how do you use JP Weigle Frame Saver on the outside of the frame on the metal exposed surfaces? that stuff is a sticky oil type of substance, not unlike linseed oil, and all matter of dirt and bugs will become attached to the frame as you ride, so please explain how you coated the external frame and had it stay without being tacky.
The outside of the frame is already protected by primer and paint and chemical pre-treatment which is used before painting...Rust starts on the inside and then it spreads outside. The best way to rustproof a frame is to spray some rustproofing oil on the inside of the frame. If you notice most frames and forks have very small vent holes. You can spray rustproofing oil into those vent holes and also remove the seatpost and spray some oil inside there... You don't even have to rustproof your frame, as most frames will outlast you and it takes extremely long time for a frame to completely rust out and become unusable.
wolfchild is offline  
Old 12-09-19, 10:01 AM
  #15  
dsaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 2,258
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 712 Post(s)
Liked 793 Times in 471 Posts
Originally Posted by wolfchild
The outside of the frame is already protected by primer and paint and chemical pre-treatment which is used before painting...Rust starts on the inside and then it spreads outside. The best way to rustproof a frame is to spray some rustproofing oil on the inside of the frame. If you notice most frames and forks have very small vent holes. You can spray rustproofing oil into those vent holes and also remove the seatpost and spray some oil inside there... You don't even have to rustproof your frame, as most frames will outlast you and it takes extremely long time for a frame to completely rust out and become unusable.
Did you even read the thread or the question he was asking me? It has nothing to do with a painted frame.
dsaul is offline  
Old 12-09-19, 10:28 AM
  #16  
livedarklions
Tragically Ignorant
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,094 Times in 5,053 Posts
Semi-related question: Has there ever been a production bicycle with a stainless steel frame?
Why are stainless steel frames pretty much just a novelty?
livedarklions is offline  
Old 12-09-19, 12:34 PM
  #17  
Unca_Sam
The dropped
 
Unca_Sam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,406

Bikes: Pake C'Mute Touring/Commuter Build, 1989 Kona Cinder Cone, 1995 Trek 5200, 1973 Raleigh Super Course FG, 1960/61 Montgomery Ward Hawthorne "thrift" 3 speed, by Hercules (sold) : 1966 Schwinn Deluxe Racer (sold)

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1739 Post(s)
Liked 1,014 Times in 696 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions
Semi-related question: Has there ever been a production bicycle with a stainless steel frame?
Why are stainless steel frames pretty much just a novelty?
Can't answer the first question, though I suspect no, because of the answer to the second question. Stainless frames cost a good bit. Though modern alloys (Reynolds 953, Columbus OCX, KVA MS3) supposedly surpass the lightness and strength of titanium and aluminum, a frame built with stainless costs around as much as a titanium frame. Metallurgy is an ever-evolving technical field, and I wouldn't be surprised that relatively lightweight high tensile stainless alloys are relatively recent, compared to aluminum and titanium. (Don't forget to say thanks to the Military-Industrial complex for your titanium and aluminum frames!)
Unca_Sam is offline  
Old 12-09-19, 12:42 PM
  #18  
Unca_Sam
The dropped
 
Unca_Sam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,406

Bikes: Pake C'Mute Touring/Commuter Build, 1989 Kona Cinder Cone, 1995 Trek 5200, 1973 Raleigh Super Course FG, 1960/61 Montgomery Ward Hawthorne "thrift" 3 speed, by Hercules (sold) : 1966 Schwinn Deluxe Racer (sold)

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1739 Post(s)
Liked 1,014 Times in 696 Posts
Originally Posted by wolfchild
The outside of the frame is already protected by primer and paint and chemical pre-treatment which is used before painting...Rust starts on the inside and then it spreads outside. The best way to rustproof a frame is to spray some rustproofing oil on the inside of the frame. If you notice most frames and forks have very small vent holes. You can spray rustproofing oil into those vent holes and also remove the seatpost and spray some oil inside there... You don't even have to rustproof your frame, as most frames will outlast you and it takes extremely long time for a frame to completely rust out and become unusable.
I'm pretty sure the grain structure of steel is dense enough to prevent oxygen saturation beyond the surface layer. Rust spreads and pits and perforates because Fe2O3 changes the microcrystalline structure, exposing more Iron atoms to oxidation. Aluminum doesn't do this because the aluminum oxide layer doesn't affect the structure.
Unca_Sam is offline  
Old 12-10-19, 03:47 PM
  #19  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,453

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7628 Post(s)
Liked 3,453 Times in 1,823 Posts
I actually tried this, after doing a bunch of research---all of which said it wouldn't work, because it was impossible, in anything but a vacuum, to get all the oxygen out of the equation.

Unfortunately, they skeptics were right.

That clear powder coat is probably your best bet. it won't leave the look of raw steel, but you won't have ugly (but harmless) rust blooms under your clear coat.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 12-12-19, 01:41 AM
  #20  
DropBarFan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,150

Bikes: 2013 Surly Disc Trucker, 2004 Novara Randonee , old fixie , etc

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 49 Times in 43 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions
Semi-related question: Has there ever been a production bicycle with a stainless steel frame?
Why are stainless steel frames pretty much just a novelty?
Crescent (Swedish) used to sell production stainless-steel frame bikes in the 70's. IIRC the price was not super-high but they weren't lighter than 531 or Columbus frames so the brand didn't get popular in the US. Nowadays not much point in a production stainless-steel bike...aluminum frames can be cheap & quite light; carbon is lighter than stainless.
DropBarFan is offline  
Old 12-12-19, 06:46 AM
  #21  
livedarklions
Tragically Ignorant
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,094 Times in 5,053 Posts
Originally Posted by DropBarFan
Crescent (Swedish) used to sell production stainless-steel frame bikes in the 70's. IIRC the price was not super-high but they weren't lighter than 531 or Columbus frames so the brand didn't get popular in the US. Nowadays not much point in a production stainless-steel bike...aluminum frames can be cheap & quite light; carbon is lighter than stainless.
Stainless would not have to be painted and would look cool. Obviously, those attributes haven't been enough to popularize titanium, but do you get those benefits cheaper with stainless?

Last edited by livedarklions; 12-12-19 at 06:50 AM.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 12-12-19, 05:01 PM
  #22  
dsaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 2,258
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 712 Post(s)
Liked 793 Times in 471 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions
Stainless would not have to be painted and would look cool. Obviously, those attributes haven't been enough to popularize titanium, but do you get those benefits cheaper with stainless?
One of the local Professional Framebuilders was working on coming up with a full stainless TIG welded frame and decided to go with Titanium instead. Basically the stainless required similar welding procedures to Ti, such as additional weld prep and back purging, with no real benefit over Ti. I did a quick price check and found that Columbus XCR stainless tubes are more expensive than similar sized Dedacciai Titanium tubes.
dsaul is offline  
Likes For dsaul:
Old 12-12-19, 07:16 PM
  #23  
wolfchild
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,721

Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4227 Post(s)
Liked 2,488 Times in 1,286 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions
Stainless would not have to be painted and would look cool. Obviously, those attributes haven't been enough to popularize titanium, but do you get those benefits cheaper with stainless?
You could also get that bare metal look with brushed aluminum which has been clear coated with powder...
wolfchild is offline  
Likes For wolfchild:
Old 12-12-19, 09:46 PM
  #24  
DropBarFan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,150

Bikes: 2013 Surly Disc Trucker, 2004 Novara Randonee , old fixie , etc

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 49 Times in 43 Posts
Originally Posted by dsaul
One of the local Professional Framebuilders was working on coming up with a full stainless TIG welded frame and decided to go with Titanium instead. Basically the stainless required similar welding procedures to Ti, such as additional weld prep and back purging, with no real benefit over Ti. I did a quick price check and found that Columbus XCR stainless tubes are more expensive than similar sized Dedacciai Titanium tubes.
I'm surprised there's even more than one manufacturer of the primo stainless tubes since stainless steel frames seem like a boutique item. Genesis (UK) makes ~production Reynolds 931 stainless frames for $2,300--931 is a bit cheaper than 953 but supposedly easier to construct. Interestingly, those frames come with carbon forks.

Personally I think 'bare' metal frames look a bit plain but taste varies of course.
DropBarFan is offline  
Old 12-13-19, 03:12 AM
  #25  
guy153
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 950
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked 261 Times in 212 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions
Semi-related question: Has there ever been a production bicycle with a stainless steel frame?
Why are stainless steel frames pretty much just a novelty?
Genesis for one will sell you a Reynolds 931 frame (complete with no paint) off the peg and Cinelli sell Columbus XCr frames, which I'm pretty sure are also available as complete bikes. 931 is about the same strength as 853 and only a little bit more expensive so the main reason for picking it would be for the actual stainlessness. They're all pretty high end though and this is why they aren't more widespread.
guy153 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.