sdime

While trying to find a budget bikes made in the good 'ol US of A by skilled American craftsmen, I see nothing but Taiwanese and Mainland Chinese bikes on the market. I am a firm believer in supporting American labor; therefore, Wallymart and places as such are not my favorite places to shop. Besides, workers in Asia are treated like slaves, and buying more slave-made product would just encourage more slave-like working conditions. Are bike workers in Asia subjected to similar slave-like conditions as their comrades in other industries? If so, I'd really hate to contribute a couple hundred bux to the slave drivers, but I can't afford a thousand dollar bike made in Wisconsin either. What a dilema!

sniks

help stop slave labor.
get rich.

moki

you ignant

TheBrick

Troll

wnatw

"slave labor" in the Far East is a myth based on false relativism, i.e. no one in America can live on $2 a day--> therefore they must be slaves? when rent, food, and other necessities of living are cheaper in a given region, you get paid less. you pay $2 for a coffee, they pay $2 for three square meals and then some. otherwise they wouldn't be moving out of the rural areas into the cities.

much to the chagrin of social activists, no one is forcing them to work in these jobs. to the contrary, they're making more in these factories than they can make anywhere else.

as for Taiwan, they're one of the most westernized of the Asian Tigers, and they do in fact have anti-exploitative labor laws.

I don't have a problem with supporting American labor, but I wouldn't take that to the extreme of characterizing our competition as slaveholders.

localtalent

Want US made and can't afford a thousand bucks? Buy used, I bet you can pick up a Chicago Schwinn for a lot less than a grand.

Or buy something made in France, they aren't doing slave labor

soyboy

slavelabor or not they're still underpaid and it's exploitative

SamHouston

Things in Taiwan are pretty sweet, if you're worried about such things I'd recommend using the Secret Power of the Internet (codename:words) to help you with what might be obvious to many others.

SamHouston

Damn I'm in a bad mood today, better go back to work or something

Nouia

Ha, when I lived there, everyone was doing 35 hour weeks and taking the entire month of August off...whenever they tried to push back the retirement age, there were huge strikes. In '03 or '04 I remember all public transport in Paris being down for like 3 weeks because of a strike.

And yeah, in China it really is exploitative. It isn't like most of these laborers are getting the weekends off or living in anything but a single room in a high rise dorm.

barba

Look up Taiwan for god's sake.

wnatw

labor markets establish wages according to what people are willing to work for. "underpaid and exploitative" is a pretty loaded term, guy... underpaid according to whom? i think i'm underpaid. my coworkers all think they're underpaid. nevertheless we stay in our jobs because of a simple economic calculation. as for "exploitative", put down the protest pamphlets and pick up the Krugman, Friedman, or Sacks (all left-of-center, by the way).

are the labor laws modern and centered around workers' welfare? hell no. but it would be naive to expect an economy like China's to skip the 100-odd years of development out of a labor-intensive economy to a high-tech semi-welfare oriented economy like those of the western world.

if you're so concerned about the plight of the unskilled worker in the East, then buy more of their bikes, develop their economy, and tell the American worker to find something that he actually has a comparative advantage in.

scott77

if i can get paid 2.00 USD/hr in a country whos currency is equivalent to 32 times ours, sign me the f*ck up brother.

Retem

there is always some big dummy posting stupid rubbish like this why oh why doesn't 165"the troll killa" do something

DerekRI

He's not a troll, unless he sat on the account since july just to start trolling 6 months later.

Landgolier

Big hairy troll.

But yeah, especially if you want steel, buy used. More quality lugged steel frames have been made already in the history of the world than will ever be ridden.

Taiwan probably has better labor laws and enforcement than we do in the US. I'd rather build bikes in Taiwan than work on a roofing job or in a meat packing plant here.

China is a different story, but anyone who has never been there or doesn't know anything about the situation there they didn't learn from some one-sided propaganda here should pretty much STFU on the subject.

Retem

well then this thread belongs in the politics forum

by the way have you been to taiwan my friend have you seen that place seriously we talk all this hubbub about how they are cheap labor but taiwan is pretty friggin rich most of that island is in better shape than dare I say macau or even in some ways hong kong

Nullius

Just read Marx, you'll realize that we're all slaves.

wnatw

sure bro

food

What's funny is that if you took these people out of the factories and placed them back into the subsistence models, the very same people would raise hell about low index scores and the disparities between urban and rural cleavages.

Now what?

localtalent

My friend's dad was French (living in the US) and I have many fond memories of hanging out at his house and listening to his dad in the next room swearing at the TV and cursing all the lazy workers in France. Hilarious.

I can't speak to Taiwan, but some of China is pretty bleak. It's a damn thorny issue, though - yes, corporations in parts of the world where labor is expensive relative to the company's sales will exploit the fact that labor in some other countries is cheaper. As to whether or not they're exploiting the workers, I honestly can't say. For some of the people I met/saw there who are living outside the major cities, even a factory job is better than no job.

Now, we can talk about all the hutong being bulldozed and the citizens forcibly relocated to co-op city style high-rise suburbs, but that's for another forum

ShuaMarc

This thread is super confusing/frustrating because people keep interchanging Mainland China with Taiwan.

I want to respond to a few posts, but it's all mucked up.

Shiznaz

Labour and economic discussions aside, you're never going to build an NJS bike from American parts. Its just not in the cards.

sdime

I ain't no Troll. I am a consumer that gives a dam about the world and wants to make the world a better place by my purchasing power. I ain't no racist either; I own a Japanese car and a Japanese bike because the Japanese treat their workers like human beings--probably even better than US workers are treated.

edit: Replaced the J word that some people find offensive.

The slave like condition in other Asian countries is no joke. It has been well documented, especially in the garment industry. There are inadequate wages. They make so little that they have to live in cramped dormitories. There are unreasonably high productive targets. They are worked compulsory overtime until they're exhausted. There are verbal abuse. They get yelled at if they don't work fast enough. There are lack of medical care for on the job accidents. They are completely screwed if they hurt their backs or get their hand chopped off by a machine. There are violations of labor laws by the employers. They get fired if they complain to the authorities. There are discrimination and physical violence against employees who try to establish labor union. Expect to have a few thugs waiting for you at the dormitory tonight, if you are thinking about labor union.

Despite US demands to create and enforce labor rights, these employers find ways to violate them, such as (1) training workers to lie about their working conditions, (2) keeping two payrolls: one for US to see and one for real, (3) faking time records, (4) cleaning up the factory before inspection by US representative, among other things.

Actually, US companies are complicit in a way. It is the tough demands of US companies that drive the ill treatment of workers over there. US companies want low prices, short delivery times, and requiring manufacturers to pay fines if the product isn't produced in time. We cannot simply lay the blame on a wealthy factory owners anymore.

Shiznaz

lol!