Snicklefritz

I decided to enlist the help of a personal trainer to help get me back in shape and lose some winter pudge. Normally I do this by moderate intensity, moderate duration cycling, but I moved to an area where the local roads aren't conducive to cycling. Not enough shoulder and cars aren't used to seeing a lot of bikes out. Until it stays lighter for longer at night, I'm limited to the weekends to get serious cycling in. For now it looks like the gym is the best option.

My problem is that working out with a PT leaves me feeling very sore the next day. Not hurting, but very stiff. Stretching helps, but it takes about 2 days before it goes away. So if I do a workout on a saturday, by tuesday I could repeat the same workout, or have recovered enough to do any of the other activities I'm involved with (horse riding for example).

This is the 2nd time in the last year or two when I've tried to use a personal trainer, and I get a lot for the hour they spend with me, but honestly I feel like they are working me as if I have nothing else to do. That would be fine if I were just going to go to the gym 3 days per week and do nothing else. But when I have horses to ride and keep in shape, I can't be so sore that I'm ineffective when I try to ride and train them.

Have other folks been in a similar situation? If so, how did you handle the balance between activities? Dial down the gym workouts until you got in better shape? Suck it up and try to do everything? Or drop everything but the gym until you were in better shape?

My cardio recovery is excellent, it's just that my muscles are quite sore and stiff.

ThermionicScott 

Stretch afterwards, do light activity with those muscles the next day, and yes, suck it up.

GeorgeBMac

Three questions:
1) What kind of routines (gyms do a lot more than just dumbbells these days).
2) How long have you been doing these routines (Soreness the first couple weeks is common)
3) Have you discussed this issue with your Personal Trainer?

And, what are you goals?
... Maintain "fitness"
... Increase strength
... Lose weight
... Etc...

Ok... I guess that's four questions...

Snicklefritz

To answer your questions:
It's a mix of core work and plyometric exercises. Lunges with weights, repeat while standing on squishy pods, kettle bell, mountain climbers.
It feels a bit like Cross-fit except with less emphasis on weights and more on core. High intensity short duration exercises. Some are cardio type
things and others are sit ups, planks, etc.

I just started the routines, yesterday was my first session.
My goals are to lose weight (20-25 lb in 3 months) but also improve core strength. I haven't talked with my personal trainer about this yet.
I compete in equestrian events, very seriously in fact, but if I'm this sore, I can't do the high level stuff I need to on my horse. I can still ride, it's just that the high level stuff is not as effective when I feel so sore as to be like a wet noodle.

wolfchild

A little bit of pain and soreness is normal after an intense workout, especially after doing a new or different routine, it happens to me all the time... If your workout routine is too intense and it starts to affect your daily activities and makes daily tasks difficult instead of easier then you need to modify your routine.
I enjoy working out hard but never so hard that I am useless the next day and need 3 days of recovery before getting back to normal...

Machka 

Look up DOMS.

jsk

In that case soreness is to be expected, especially from the lunges. Stick with the program and it will get better.

Snicklefritz

Thanks everyone for the responses thus far.
@jsk: yeah, I totally think it's the lunges. Any motion up and down makes my thighs burn!

jsk

Eccentric muscle contractions tend to contribute to DOMS much more than concentric, so lunges tend to cause more soreness than something like a leg press would.

Snicklefritz

Here is an update:
saturday: workout with the PT
sunday: stiff as a board, and sore. Massage and some stretching helps, but still sore.
monday: still stiff but not as bad as monday. Did some light stretching, pilates type exercises. Felt better afterwards but knees and legs still sore
Tuesday: Feel better and could go on the bike or treadmill, but still too sore to try the same type of workout again. Feel stiff only when I'm moving my knees up and down, like getting up out of a chair, etc.


This sounds like the normal time period for DOMS (ie about 3 days), but I feel like it would take another day or two before I'd want to do anything other than light exercise.

rumrunn6

last gym was trying to cell services so had an open invite for a session with a trainer and I went to a couple. about 20 of us showed up and we went outside and did all kinds of things. one of the trainers that participated said she was sore the day after, but I was not. no one knows your body better than you. 48 hr recovery is customary. so 2 full days of rest between workouts should be OK. new ppl may need more time - even a couple weeks to recover from an injury. if soreness compounds itself you will know that you have over trained and simply can not proceed without pain. if that happens or have to back track. maybe you should take a week off and then get back to it.

LGHT

I started cycling 6 months ago and prior to that did little to no exercise. I really needed to get into shape so I would push hard each and every ride. As a result I would often get sore for several days at a time and since I only had 1 - 2 days a week to ride riding less distance and more often wasn't an option. I basically ended up with a great pre-post workout routine that allowed me to push without getting "too" sore. After about 3 months I eventually hit a plateau and now I only get slightly sore when I do 4k of incline or more at 50 miles or more.

Snicklefritz

What was your pre and post workout routine?

I'm wondering if there is something different I should be doing before or after my workouts to help speed up the recovery process. The Cardio aspect is not a problem, but the muscle related soreness is.

On Tuesday I went riding and had to take quite a few breaks because my legs were still feeling sore and weak. With the type of riding I do, core strength is key and so is the ability to use my calf and inner thigh on the horse. I thought I was ok, but in my lesson today I completely fell apart. It's pretty obvious that there is no way I can ride and train horses at a high level if I'm doing the type of workout that the personal trainer had me doing. As I'm typing this, my knees hurt and my thighs burn even though this was not happening before I did the workout with the personal trainer.

My main interest is in just trying to lose weight, say 20-25 lbs over the next 3 months. I don't necessarily need to do high intensity intervals. If I've got 1-1.5 hours per day to workout, what would be the best bang for the buck in terms of weight loss, without taxing my thighs and knees?

Carbonfiberboy 

It takes time to get used to higher levels of training and it's best to ramp up to them slowly, as you see. My wife rides dressage and can lift heavy the day before. Used to be she couldn't even do anything aerobic, but with training now she can. The owner of the barn trains 10 dressage horses/day, every day, so it's a matter of getting used to it.

How many days/week do you ride horses and for how long? I understand you are lifting 3 days/week?

I'm 69 and have always recovered more slowly than most. My rule is that I don't lift if my legs are sore, but I can cycle with sore legs if I keep the effort down. Obviously you can't keep the effort down on a horse.

My belief is that it's very hard to lose weight by exercising. Calorie burn is simply not that great and if one burns a lot, it's very difficult not to eat it back. The only way I've found to lose weight is to eat less. I know, that's easy to say, hard to do. I've done it by reducing portion sizes about by half, and then adding in a small meal in mid-afternoon and a glass of 15-25g whey/casein protein at bedtime. I cut the portion sizes down slowly over a period of a month or so. Another little rule I practice is that I stop eating before I feel like I should, then wait 1/2 hour before deciding I didn't get enough. Usually after that 1/2 hour I feel just fine.

Another thing I do to lose weight and recover more quickly is to have 15g flavored whey protein in water about 15' before every meal. This works amazingly well. It's then easier to eat less and I do recover more quickly.

Back to your last question, the best bang for the buck is HIIT training on the bike. However if you have that much time, at this point I'd put it into moderate intensity time on the bike, outdoors if possible. Keep your effort down to where you are breathing deeply, but not fast. You should be able to just recite the alphabet out loud in one breath with no strain. That's the level to hold. If you do that for ~1 hr./day for 2 weeks, you'll notice the difference on the horse, big time. If you train like that for a month or so, I think you could go back to lifting maybe 2 days/week even if you cycle on those days. Don't lift the same day your ride your horse.

My experience is that lifting 1 day/week I stay even. 2 days/week I make progress. 3 days/week I can't do much of anything else.

LGHT

I want to first say some don’t take supplements or don’t believe in them, but I found they are a huge help and I can really tell the difference when I skip them on long hard rides. I have intentionally not taken them to see how I feel and perform and it’s a big difference for me. Also I came up with the list based on continued soreness week after week. (see this post https://www.bikeforums.net/training-n...re-normal.html ) My suggestions are just my opinion on what has helped me and what I have learned by reading a lot online. I’ll also include references to sites that indicate what supplements they suggest and why. Just to be clear my doctor is aware of the supplements I’m taking and has given me the green light and actually help me understand what supplements “may help” and which ones he supports.

My local loop has about 2500’ of incline over 32 miles but 80% of the incline happens in the first 14 miles. What has helped open up the legs and release lactate acid after a climb was spinning with a cadence at 100-120 for a minute or so. I also spin with a high cadence for the last half mile of the ride. I can now do this loop twice a week without getting sore and my goal is to do 2 loops per ride twice a week for a total 128 miles and 10,000’ of incline each week. Because I’m focused on climbing more than miles my leg soreness always seemed to be an issue from day 1.

A few hours before the ride I load up on carbs in the form of maltodextrin. Then just before a ride I take a small amount of creatine, whey protein isolate, Beta alanine, and branch chain amino acids. If I plan on doing a longer ride or a ride with more than 4000’ I also ride with a bottle of maltodextrin and Dextrose in addition to my normal water. Once the ride is over I immediately make a recover shake that contains casin protein, creatine and Glutamine and maltodextrin. I also usually eat a good solid meal with a good amount of carbs about an hour after the ride and after hydrating. Then before bed I take Magnesium and fish oils which help muscle fatigue, soreness, and are anti-inflamatory. The next day I take more whey protein isolate and a small amount of creatine. I also already take a multi-vitamin daily, but if you’re not you should take one the day after the ride.

Immediately after my recovery shake I use a small wooden hand roller and message out my legs where they usually get sore. I also spend about 5 minutes of stretching. Not too much, but enough to release any built up acid. If I really push myself hard I also add in a hot / cold hydrotherapy that night. It’s easier for me to jump in the Jacuzzi and soak for 10 minutes and then immediately go from the Jacuzzi to the cold pool for 5 minutes. However you can do this in the shower by just letting the hot water run over your legs and turn off the hot so you get really cold water after 5 minutes. I do this 3-4 times. If I’m really sore I do this again the next day and also use my hand roller to message my legs and stretch several times throughout the day. I also take more creatine and protein as needed, but usually I can recover in 2-3 days when in the past it would be a week or more. On day 2 after the long ride even if I’m still sore I try and spin at a high cadence with little to no incline for at least 10 miles which is known as “active recovery”.

As far as the weight loss I've dropped about 25-30 lbs in that time, but to be honest I don't think a lot was a result of riding, but more of just eating cleaner, not as much, and not eating after 7:00pm nightly.

sources:

https://www.cptips.com/recvry.htm
https://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/art...lements-34616/
https://breakingmuscle.com/mobility-r...-and-hot-water
https://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/art...d-rides-23620/
https://roadbikeaction.com/features/r...aster-recovery
https://www.bikeforums.net/training-nutrition/451789-maltodextrin.html

Carbonfiberboy 

^+1
I was thinking about what's helped my wife the most at the gym. As you say, a strong core is key. For most of her exercises, she started with 3 sets of 12 and gradually worked down to 3 sets of 4 over several months. I suppose horizontal rows, lat pull-downs, the back machine, and the Roman chair have been key. The back machine she started with 1 set of 30 and gradually moved to 3 sets of 12. Roman chair she does with bent legs and just one set to exhaustion. She also benefited from the usual dumbbell work: curls, bench presses, incline presses, bent rows, shrugs, and seated presses. I think you could do such upper body work without affecting your horse work so much.

Lower body, she does barbell squats, one-legged leg presses, and standing one-legged calf raises on a Smith machine using a toe block. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPWXdq7idrI in case you don't know what that is.

Snicklefritz

That's very cool that your wife rides dressage!! That's exactly what I'm doing! I didn't say dressage previously because most guys I know don't know about that from adam.
To answer your question, I train 5-6 days a week depending on how many days my horse needs off. If we are heavily into the show season, then he will get at least one full day off and sometimes a light trail ride or hack on the second day. I usually ride for around an hour give or take when I'm training. If I'm just having fun say on a weekend trail ride, then I might be gone for a few hours.

The issue of personal fitness came up when I talked to my trainer about moving up to 2nd level. I schooled 2nd over the winter and am now working on solidifying some of the lateral work like renvers and travers, in addition to simple changes. I feel like I'm a place where the body balance and core strength will improve my ability to move up more quickly. It is just a struggle to balance the gym with the horses. Right now I'm not doing any lifting. I just started with the personal trainer last saturday, intending to work with them 1x/week and then do at least 2 workouts in the gym during the week. The problem is I'm still sore almost a week after the fact, so I haven't been back in the gym.

My horse is very sensitive so any instability in my body either makes him confused or tells him to do something else. For example, I think I'm asking for a travers, but then he goes into a halfpass. Or I think I'm straight and he is starting to move into a travers.


I haven't talked to the personal trainer again yet, but I did talk to my trainer (dressage) today and said I think I've reached the limit of what I can do physically and am struggling to balance the horses and the gym workouts. Looks like I'm not going to be getting out of the gym workouts damnit!!! She suggested that I tell the personal trainer to tone it down and not try to do that level of intensity.

I hear you on the diet vs exercise thing for losing weight. If I do too high of intensity then I just feel like eating more. Right now I am doing a detox diet and have significantly reduced bad stuff I was eating (sugary things, carbs, etc.). I will try your idea to do the whey protein before eating. Sometimes I do eat more than I should just because the food is there and tastes good.

My first show this season is memorial day so I think I have a few weeks to build up and not fall apart at the end of May.

Carbonfiberboy 

^ That all sounds good. My wife says concentrate on the core work. My wife has a book Rider's Fitness Program which has a lot of balance work in it. She used that for a while, but found more benefit from the usual weights work. Worth getting it, though. She thinks halfpass is more 3rd level.

Just don't put it on your plate. We serve ourselves in the kitchen when it's just us.

There's a theory that building muscle in the gym will help you lose weight, the theory being that when you have more muscle mass it burns more calories whenever you simply move around. I think it has merit.

My wife rides at Cedar Meadows Farm. We ride our tandem a lot.

Snicklefritz

So I bit of an update here. I stuck with the program with the personal trainer even though the first few were F'ing hard. In mid June I bumped up to 2x/week with the personal trainer and was also in the gym at least 3x/week for lifting using the book that Carbonfiberboy recommended. Outside of the personal training, I do at least 2 more cardio days, with one day being speed work and one being endurance.

Through the first two months I lost a total of 6" off my waist. the first month I lost 3" off my waist, 4 lbs and 1% bodyfat. The second month I also lost 3" off my waist and 1% bodyfat, but just 1 lb. First week of august is when I do my 3rd month check with my nutritionist. They are tracking the changes 1x/month so I have an independent person making sure the measurements

Fitness has improved a lot because when I do my speedwork, I'm running at a 7.5 min/mile pace for my intervals, which is pretty good for me considering how out of shape I was a few months ago. Last week I had to jog some horses, where you are basically sprinting, then resting for a short period then sprinting again and it wasn't hard.

My new routine is typically:
Almost always on a set schedule:
M/W/F: lift using the book that CFB recommended
T/F: workout with the personal trainer

Flexible, according to recovery:
W: speed work for 30-40 min. in the gym on either the treadmill, spinbike, or elliptical
Thursday: If recovery from T/W was good then do 30 min. of speedwork or 60 min. of aerobic work depending on how I feel.
Saturday: If I worked out on Thursday then take a rest day. If I didn't workout on thursday, then do 30/60 minutes of speedwork or aerobic stuff.

Sunday: rest day

I can ride and workout the same day as long as the workout is in the morning and the riding is in the evening. The caveat is that the riding I do has to include a lot of breaks or just simply be a trail ride. If I want to do serious training, I need to have 24-48 hours between the riding day and a workout with the personal trainer if I want to have an effective riding session with minimal breaks.

The scale isn't moving as quickly as I thought it would, although my clothes are looser and people are noticing big differences from week to week. I suppose that means I'm building muscle as I lose fat? The one thing that's consistent is t 1% bodyfat reduction each month.

I wanted to quit so f'ing badly the first month, but am glad I stuck with it. So thanks everybody for the suggestions and encouragement to not quit.

Carbonfiberboy 

That's really impressive. Good job! Positive reinforcement is always hard to get because one has to do the right thing long enough to get the positive feedback. That seems to apply to everything in life.