patentcad

The attitudes here are a bit puzzling in one sense: do you REALLY think that society is going to pass laws to enhance the safety of road cyclists? Are you high? Do you have any concept of what a bunch of wierdos cyclists are generally perceived as? How small a minority we are?

Is that wrong? Perhaps. Is that worthy of your outrage? I suppose it depends on how much energy you have to invest in this. If you really think that your bike weenie anger will change the world, by all means, rage against that particular machine. But it won't. And the world doesn't care. It REALLY REALLY doesn't care. Perhaps you'll understand that some day, but some people here don't seem to. And I completely agree that sucks. But I don't get bent over this for several reasons.

Here's a newsflash: that's part of the 99.9% of the stuff in the world you are powerless to change. Focus on what you CAN change. Like how safe YOU are on the road. The rest isn't exactly in your hands. Is it? Let me know if you figure out how to get a handle on the spaced out soccer moms who are a threat to my life, because I'd love to know what to do.

God, I can only imagine how much THAT pisses off half the people reading this. And I can't change that either. I'm out there more than most of you, so nobody's more exposed than me. But that IS the deal. And I have accepted that.

geneman

Our local cycling community held an improptu memorial ride yesterday to the site of the accident. Around 70-80 guys participated and Jon's mother, father, and wife came to send us off. At the site of the accident, a few of Jon's closer friends eulogized him with some great words to both mourn and celebrate Jon's life. During the ride out and back from the site, there was plenty of conversation about what could be done to help Jon's family and how as a community we should feel about this event. It's important to note that there were very few people who I spoke with who expressed anger over the event. Somehow it was understood that Jon would have asked us all to forgive this woman. His fantasitic spirit had clearly permeated the entire group and it's a testament to it that most of the discussion was about peace and forgiveness.

Mark

Blaireau

Oh, ok. Nobdy is more exposed more than you are...Is it because of the size of your head?

Thank you for showing is the light oh, Grand Master...
And by the way, with people so accepting of the Status Quo we'd still be living under absolute monarchies...
Glad that kind of subservient mindset went in remission around the end of the 18th century... Too bad its so fashionable these days....

SteveE

For starters, we could quit letting them off because they weren't paying attention to what they were supposed to be doing. How about making people responsible for their actions.


BTW, I'm out there a lot. I ride about 5-6 days a week.

Doid23

How many times do you think that this lady has "been so inattentive that (she's) hit someone"? It only takes one. I'm glad it hasn't happened to you (or to me), I would not wish that on my worst enemy. I'm pretty comfortable that while she may not be "outraged" with herself, if she's like anyone else who has been in a similar situation, she will live with the guilt and horror of what she's done for the rest of her life, and not a day will go by that she doesn't think about it.

patentcad

And cyclists would STILL get hit and killed on occasion.

It seems to me that throwing soccer moms in the slammer for accidents wouldn't prevent those accidents at all. It would however compound one tragedy with another.

This seems much more about the unwillingness of some of the members here to accept their own responsibility - to acknowledge the real risks of their hobby/passion - than anything else.

Society does hold those accountable - but there has to be a proveable aggravating circumstance. Because accidents do happen. All the time. You're just all upset that cyclists are getting killed. Because it IS upsetting. Drawing the line between a 'true' accident and one caused by some degree of negligence that everyone here wants criminalized - that's a rather sticky wicket. Railing at the motorists involved on this forum is far easier than coming up with an ethical - and legally acceptable - solution.

95% of which seems like a waste of calories and bandwidth. Static. But that does fit in with much of the hooey here. So it's consistent.

Let's have another 'I keep falling over in these clipless pedals' thread instead.

SteveE

Well, I certainly hope so! I just think we turn a blind eye and say "Well, ***** happens." And life goes on. We seem to be so auto-centric in our society that we devalue the lives of people who are killed by cars by just call them accidents. To me, that is shameful. "I wasn't paying attention to what I was supposed to be doing and just killed someone. Sorry, I didn't mean to." "Officer, the sun was in my eyes and I couldn't see. (But I decided to turn anyway.) I'm really sorry the someone died."

Am I bitter? Sure. Because in the last year, some lady wasn't paying attention and hits my car. I'm not injured, it's only a fender-bender. However, not only was she not paying attention, she lied to the officer about what happened (made a U-turn where the sign specifically said "No U-Turn), where it happened, and that it was my fault. (Needless to say, she was found to be at fault but she was not cited.) Then some guy makes a right-hand turn into a parking lot, knocking me off the bike, knocking my teeth back and chipping two of them. Upper jaw is fractured, hands busted up, and my dentist says I could wind up losing up to four teeth. Finally, some total jackass scumbag is driving drunk and murders one of our club members and goes to court for a hearing and says "Whatever it was, I didn't do it."

jfmckenna

^^ Yup it's the typical, "My Bad" excuse. Relinquish all responsibilities because oops it was your bad

Again to my cleaning the loaded gun analogy. Bang gun goes off and kills a kid, "oops my bad."

patentcad

The flaws in this analogy are profound. EVERYBODY drives cars daily. VERY few people clean guns, and only a drunken lunatic would clean a loaded gun (that's preposterous). If you hit somebody while driving in a drunken lunatic state you WILL face criminal charges.

jfmckenna

Patent we will just have to agree to disagree

My analogy may be off based but so is yours that only a drunken lunatic cleans a loaded gun. It happens every year to sober law abiding but momentarily negligent gun owners.

Anyway I am going to bow out now enough has been said. I really just hope the best for everyone including the woman who hit this poor guy.

patentcad

OK, then I stand corrected. I suppose it's a fair presumption that you'd have to be crazy to clean a loaded gun. Lesson: never overestimate the intelligence of firearms fantatics.

WCroadie

Good, I hope she feels so bad she can hardly function. This poor guy was riding his bike when he was killed. I feel horrible for him and his loved ones. His kids will grow up without a father because some a$$hole wasn't paying attention.

patentcad

Case in point below. Motorcycle fatality, but the parallels are obvious. Alcohol is involved. Criminal charges were filed:

https://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/147286

So there ARE laws for this sort of thing. But you'll never see them throw people in jail without some aggravating factor. And in many cases that may be unjust. If any of you can figure out how to resolve that dilemma we'll put you on Middle East Peace for your next project.

Somebody call Judge Judy.

Hhowdy

Howdy,
I've been knocked down 3 times this year, 1 was a guy that just did not see me and turned in front of me, 1 was a gal that that thought she had the right to the lane and moved over on me, running me the curb, 1 was two teenage kids that sprayed something in my face as they went by then swerved over and hit me purposely. In all three cases the most reaction I got from the police was a case number over the phone in no case did the police even show up to the seen.
The laws in Salt Lake City just don't support cyclists when involved in an accident.
There was a high profile case here where a lady killed Josie (I forget here last name) in big cottonwood canyon. She was eventually convicted of negligence and because of her age and some medical conditions her drivers license was revoked permanently.

M.R.

jorantes

I think that the law should def be that if an at-fault cager kills or seriously injures a cyclist on the road then they should PERMANENTLY lose their drivers license. Driving is a privilege, NOT a right. Hitting a cyclist and causing them to die is horrible. The victim cyclists doesnt get their life back, so why should you keep your license...? A HEFTY $500+ citation and/or 50+ hrs community service picking up trash on the side of a main road where the cyclist was hit should be warranted for EVERYONE at fault hitting a cyclist and causing minor injuries. A slap on the wrist is just an invitation to do it again.

geneman

Update --
From the Rochester Democrat & Chronicle

September 22, 2006 8:32 am — The driver of a car that hit and killed a bicyclist in Lima, Livingston County, last week is now facing charges.

Sharon Cameron, 61, of Lima yesterday was charged with moving from a lane unsafely, after a weeklong investigation of the fatal accident, according to Livingston County Sheriff's deputies.
On Sept. 13, her vehicle was westbound on Routes 5 and 20, reportedly crossed the white line and hit Jonathan Dechau, 33, of Lima, from behind as he rode along the shoulder of the road.

Dechau, a professional cyclist, was pronounced dead at the scene.

Cameron is expected to appear in Lima Town Court next month, deputies said.




Mark

merlinextraligh

And this is what you would typically expect of a case of simple negligence without aggravating circumstances. And while she won't go to jail on criminal charges, she doesn't escape responsibility. If convicted she'll have to pay a fine. Her insurance rates will go up. She will get points on her license. She will face civil liablity. And depending on the adequacy of her insurance, the extent of her personal assets, and how hard the rider's estate chooses to push it, her personal assets can be in jeopardy ( this is the reason you should always have an umbrella policy with at least $1,000,000 coverage). And most of all she will have to live with the fact that she's been adjudicated at fault for an accident that killed a person.

It won't bring the Rider back, but of course throwing Grandma in jail wouldn't either.

patentcad

There seems to be a notion here that there is NO responsibility for ANY risk of sharing the road that lies with cyclists themselves. The only difference between hitting a cyclist and a car is that the likelihood that you'll seriously injure or kill somebody is much greater. But that doesn't necessarily mean the person @ fault acted in a criminal manner.

Cooler heads will prevail of course. And cyclists, motorcyclists, motorists and pedestrians will die on the road. We won't be incarcerating the planet over this either. I don't think our prisons have the vacancy. And I don't particularly think it would save lives either. **** happens weenies. Sometimes it's very bad ****. If you want a place with zero risk of death by automobile go mountain biking on Mars.

SteveE

I know I assume risk every time I go out on a bike!

I just don't understand how people aren't in control of their cars. I've have been driving for forty years. I had a one incident while in college (side-swiped another case at night and, yes, I was under the influence), but have not caused an accident since 1970 and have been involved on only a single fender-bender since 1972. But, I do not buy the argument that it only takes a split second of inattention in broad daylight to run into someone.

Frankly, you've got to be pretty spaced out to run into something while driving. Drifting when there's nothing in front of you is a lot different than drifting into a cyclist, pedestrian, or other large object.

Blaireau

+ 1

patentcad

And you've got to be pretty spaced out to RIDE YOUR BICYCLE INTO A DITCH and fall so badly they medivac you to a hospital. But that's exactly what a local elite amateur racer did down the road from me six months ago. Oh, there you go: cyclists do stupid things too. But they tend to only hurt their weenie selves (I know, I've done it). Again, **** happens. And people do stupid things. Spaced out things. By ACCIDENT.

So what's the bike weenie solution proposed here? To criminalize all accidents? The stupidty on this thread is staggering. I think I'll go out and get hit by a car. Then I won't have to read this stuff anymore.

geneman

For what it's worth, the shoulder on the road where he was killed is no less than 10 feet of perfect pavement. I rode my bike by the site of the accident ... friends and family have left tons of flowers, his racing jersey, and a wheel. Sad.

Mark

Bobby Lex

Do the math. At 60 mph you are travelling at 88 feet per second! You glance in the rear view mirror, you adjust your seat, you change the radio station, you reach for a drink, you put your sunglasses on, you hand something to your child in the back seat, you nod off for a second because you stayed up too late......

C'mon. We're all human. We all have made errors in judgement. We spill a drink. We forget to unclip and fall over on our bikes. We trip over our own feet and fall. We bang our thumb with a hammer. I challenge one person on this board to tell me that they have never committed a negligent act in their life.

It's just that when we're operating a 3,000 pound steel machine at 60 mph that the consequences of those human errors in judgement can be very serious. But that doesn't make those acts criminal.

Last year 2,699,000 people were injured in car accidents according to the National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration.

We can reasonably assume that a certain number of those injuries might have been deliberate actions.

Probably a certain number of those injuries were alcohol-related.

A certain number of those injuries probably resulted from "gross" negligence (legally defined as where someone's actions are such that although they didn't intend that this specific result occur, their actions were so reckless so as to indicate a complete and utter disregard for the consequences of their acts.) That would include street-racing and the like.

But most likely, the vast majority of the over 2.6 MILLION auto-related injuries were related to misjudgement, lack of attention, poor driving skills, momentary distractions and so forth. We've all heard, and sometimes ourselves have said: "I didn't see them.....I didn't realize they were coming so fast....I thought I could make it.....I was momentarily blinded by the sun....I didn't see that patch of ice....etc. etc.

Our society defines "accident" differently than "crime". And for good reason. Because the two are different. The standard is not "Could the accident have been avoided?". The standard is "What was going through the at-fault person's mind when they commited the act?". Intentional acts (or a lack of concern for the consequences of one's acts) are generally criminal. Unintentional acts are generally civil.

And, as has been pointed out above by other posters, acts of civil negligence do have consequences, just not criminal consequences. Society does not have the resources (not enough jails and prisons), nor does society have the desire (for good, well-thought-out reasons), to incarcerate every person who commits a negligent act.

I understand the need to hold people accountable for their actions. That's why I'm an opponent of most "No-Fault" systems (whether it be auto no-fault, or medical malpractice no-fault, or whatever). But someone can be at fault for causing an accident, without being a criminal.

A lot of the comments I'm seeing here are "mob-mentality", emotional, responses. And they show a fundamental lack of understanding of how a society should deal with its members.

Bob

patentcad

And let me stress that I fell VERY sad for anybody who gets clipped by a car and their families. I could be next. But I can't change text-messaging 17 year olds and distracted soccer moms. You can't either. Throwing a few in the slammer can't either.

I wish.

Blaireau

-1 for this post. And minus many cyclist lives with that kind of sheep-like mentality on our side of the issue.
It is dizzying the amount of human behavior that has been modified by laws and prison sentences and fines (drunk driving for one). Nothing says that the laws that work to keep our society the way it is, can't be reasonably modified to better protect our lives when we are riding a bike.