Ataylor

As I mentioned several times before in this thread, I don't know. I'm not an expert. I'm just trying to figure this out. But again, regardless of what caused this rise in obesity (that some refer to as an epidemic), you would agree that something went completely and utterly haywire in the last 50 or so years, wouldn't you?

mobilemail

I just signed on with my Virta through my work insurance to see if I can get off diabetes meds long before the need for insulin. I'm sure it will be an interesting journey as a cyclist.

Ataylor

And by the way, I knew this thread could possibly be derailed, but I was hoping that wouldn't be the case. The reason I created this thread was not to promote the diet or even to debate things I know little to nothing about. I'm here simply because I'm interested in hearing about the experiences of people on this diet and what they consumed for carbs. That's all. If anyone wants to share, please do.

RH Clark

I don't think just one thing caused the obesity problem, but the increase in sugar consumption and processed foods certainly contributed to it, and it's not nearly as simple as eating too much and exercising too little. Those foods can also cause significant harm over the long term regardless of ones perceived fitness levels or fat percentages. The science shows at least that much from too many credible sources to be discredited.

I don't know that carnivore is the best answer. IMHO it's best use is short term to help isolate and identify food allergies that can cause inflammation. It often takes 72 hours for food allergies to show symptoms, so it is beneficial to have 2 weeks of strict carnivore and introduce one food item back into the diet. I learned that nightshade vegetables cause my arthritis to flare up. many people do poorly on grains or dairy. Jordon Peterson and his daughter eat carnivore to control autoimmune disease.

Some of the best information we have on proper long-term diets come from what are termed the blue zones. These are the populations on earth that live the longest and have the highest quality of life at older ages. About the only thing the same about all these diets is that they all contain very little processed foods and refined sugars. Some of them are high protein and relative low carb, and some are nearly all starches and carbs with very little protein from meat, but they are all mostly whole foods as organic as possible..

PeteHski

Well I’m pretty sure the obesity epidemic was not caused by following a balanced diet and taking regular exercise. I just find it odd that you appear to think that an extreme carnivore diet might be a solution. Living entirely off beef, salt and water according to Jordan Peterson. Of course I find that ridiculous! The guy is insane.

Ataylor

I don’t think so either. I said in an earlier post, “the topic is probably incredibly complex and there may be way more variables at play that simply just the food itself.”

That said, I agree with you. I would assume sugar and processed foods play a roll to some degree. I’m not denying that. The only point I keep trying to make is that if you’re healthy, your doctor says you’re healthy, you feel good, your symptoms are gone, etc, etc, I don’t understand why someone would choose not to be on it unless they cared more about the freedom to eat whatever they wanted to eat than they did about their health or how they felt.

Treating it as an “introductory diet” where you slowly integrate different foods into your meals to see how you react to them is a great way to approach this diet. I actually plan to do that myself.

Interesting. I’ll look into that. Thanks for sharing.

Ataylor

Assertions and insults won’t prove your point. Everyone is “insane” until the sciences jump on board, then it becomes normal. But it would have been normal when people were calling it “ridiculous.”

Anyway, you’ve misunderstood me more than once now and have claimed that I’ve said things that I did not say, so I would suggest you read the thread if you truly want to understand the points I’m trying to make.

Other than that, I think we should agree to disagree and just call it a day. Take care.

Jughed

Without getting into the underlying reasons - that would be a discussion for P&R, some bullet points on our chaos.
-Food pyramid in the US is upside down.
-Fat was said to be bad, heavy grains and pasta were said to be good.
-Bread good, eggs bad
-Wheat good, butter bad
-Eat more bread than veggies
-And if you happen to get fat or sick, lookie heere, we have a pill for you to take - forever!!

Sarcasm aside - the reality is, we've been taught to eat wrong from grade school. The food pyramid was developed around the same time our obesity epidemic started.

Some people got really sick... and once sick, you have a few options. Medicated the crap out of yourself for life, do nothing, or try and heal your body. Some of us have been able to heal our body using fairly extreme diets and moderate exercise. Changing the trajectory of our future health without the need for lifelong meds... and lifelong disease progression.

PeteHski

I just follow guidance from modern nutritional science, which does not actually support any of your bullet points above (even if the uninformed might believe it). From what I've read:-

Fat - can be very good, bad or neutral depending on many factors.
Eggs - very good in moderation
Bread - white bad, wholemeal and/or fermented not so bad
Wheat - depends on processing, allergies etc.
Ultra-processed foods - bad
Whole foods - good
meat - good, but moderation strongly advised with red meat
Fish - good
Fruit & Veg - good, especially if whole
Dairy - fermented very good, rest good if tolerant
Sugar - very bad in excessive quantity when sedentary


Maybe the US is different to the UK, but a lot of the nutritional science I read today originates in the US.
I'm currently following this ZOE program in the UK and I find their podcast interviews with nutritional science experts very informative. They cover a lot of the common misconceptions around the very bullet points you raised.

https://zoe.com/

ZOE doesn't advocate any specific diet, but encourages a balanced diet with diverse sources of protein, carbs, fats and nutrients - tailored to your personal responses to sugars and fats.

I fully understand that some people get really sick and need specific dietary advice above and beyond the norm. But I would be extremely wary of any extreme diet based strictly on a single food source. This Carnivore diet (as presented by Jordan Peterson) is about as extreme as it gets. It's not like an ordinary low carb diet. Anecdotally I know of only 1 person who lived entirely on meat (simply because they hated vegetables) and he died of bowel cancer in his late 30s.

I just find the OP's scepticism of modern nutritional science, while trusting the likes of Peterson (who AFAIK has no qualifications in nutritional science) a bit odd. But I'm curious to know how it turns out for him.

PeteHski

Well I certainly can't relate to your sources of information, but best of luck on your journey. I am curious.

RH Clark

I agree with your list except that I don't see any benefit in consuming bread in any form, and there are many possible negatives. According to many studies sugars can also have a negative impact regardless of exercise level.

john m flores 

Every single diet fad of the last 50 years - low fat, sugar free, low cholesterol, etc... - has proven just one thing - that fad diets don't stand up to long-term scientific scrutiny. I'm have no confidence that any of the current food fabs will do any better.

At the end of the day, I'm in the Michael Pollan school of eating real food in reasonable portions and with reasonable proportions of carbs/protein/etc... It's hard for many though, as factory food is typically cheaper and more accessible.

About the obesity epidemic - it's been driven primarily by factory foods, cheap calories, and our increasingly sedentary lives. You don't see a lot of obesity in New York City, for example, despite it being a foodie paradise. I think it's because people have to walk daily.

PeteHski

One of those Blue Zones you mentioned earlier is noted for it’s traditional daily consumption of sourdough bread. It tastes good too, so there is that!

The good thing about following a diverse diet is that you don’t tend to over-expose yourself to any one food in large quantities.

Jughed

It depends on where you are in the city I guess, probably a socioeconomic thing...
Overweight data for NYC | Environment & Health Data Portal

Some areas are in the 30% range, some areas are much better...

Most of our fattest cities are in the South - sweet tea, fried chicken and BBQ are staple foods down there.


I'm going out on a limb here and saying that the way I eat isn't a fad - it's the way my ancestors ate for 1000's of years. Just with some modern convenience and variety in the mix.

I don't eat the pure carnivore diet like the OP indicated - just meat and salt... I don't know if that is a sustainable way of eating, for some it just may be - but I couldn't do it.

Sugar and carbs are poison to my system - so I eat a diet of meat and veggies, a ton of veggies, nuts, cheeses, eggs, tomato, avocado, yogurt (with no added sugar) - eat 2x per day and avoid processed foods 95% of the time. I don't call it "keto", as I don't pile extra helpings of fat on top of the meal - and it just flat works.

I do believe that many of our common illnesses and ailments that are treated by a bevy of medicines can be minimized or even eliminated by simply limiting processed foods and the extra carbs/sugars we consume. Our foods help make us fat/ill, and there is a pill or shot ready and waiting to "fix" us - but we are not fixed, we are simply strung out for a lifetime of meds.

RH Clark

I agree that a diverse diet is the best approach. My issue with wheat-grains is not in the plant material itself so much as the treatment of it. Producers kill wheat with Round Up so it dries while standing in order to have larger harvests. Wheat isn't even the same plant as it was 200 years ago due to genetic engineering.

john m flores 

I agree that factory farming and the move towards cheap calories (carbs, sugars, and trans/saturated fats) has a lot to do with. But I think that our car-centric and sedentary lifestyle goes hand in hand with it. Calories in/Calories out should always spoken of as an intertwined pair

And it's good to hear that moving away from those things has improved your health, but I've always found the ancestor explanation to be a nice and romantic framing but also somewhat dubious because we modern humans don't expend calories quite the same way they did. We don't toil in the fields or hunt or forage from sun up to sun down. Someone pairing a meat heavy "ancestor" diet with modern levels of inactivity aren't likely to fare well. Plus, do we want to mimic ancestral dietary habits when our ancestors' life expectancies were 50-60 years old?

All of that said, I do think you're on to something - "modernizing" your ancestral diet with things that modern nutrition science has found to be beneficial - veggies, nuts, avocados (I don't think Viking ate guacamole lol) - while avoiding processed foods and participating in cycling sounds healthy.

PeteHski

A lot of the fruit and veg we eat today has been genetically engineered over many decades. Apples are a good example. Not that it’s a bad thing. Who wants to eat wild crab apples? They are barely edible for humans.

I think we are a bit better off in Europe in regard to pesticides and herbicides. I think US regulations are less strict. But I try to eat as much certified organic produce as possible, which is readily available here.

Hermes

Moderation note: We have a zero tolerance for P&R content in the open forum. And we have issued enough warnings in threads as well as infractions such that bans are now being issued. Do not post content that may initiate P&R discussion or post P&R content. Stick to cycling related training and nutrition. Thanks in advance for your compliance.

terrymorse 

Some breads are better than others. Whole grains are much healthier than refined flour. My every day bread is made from 21 whole grains and seeds. Macronutrients:

• 1.5 g fat (zero saturated)
• 22 g carbohydrates (including 5 g fiber)
• 5 g protein

Whole grains and seeds are major ingredients of a healthy, plant-based diet.

Training & Nutrition content: My post-ride meal is usually a PB&J sandwich with the above bread, and "jelly" made from fresh fruit that was turned to mush in a blender. I don't like store-bought jelly--way too much sugar.

ThermionicScott 

Try it and report back.

fredlord

What is P&R content?

terrymorse 

Politics and Religion. Topics you don't mention at a dinner party, for good reason.

PeteHski

I wonder how the OP is getting on with this diet?

Carbonfiberboy 

One of the rather wonderful things about human beings is how omnivorous we are. Given the appropriate ecology, we can survive and thrive on the same diet as modern chimpanzees: lots of leaves, berries and nuts, and very occasional raw meat. There are modern studies of ancient bones which show that was the case with some of our Paleolithic ancestors. And like Eskimos, we can also eat mostly meat, either raw or cooked. Some fascinating material here:
https://shell.cas.usf.edu/~rtykot/178...0chemistry.pdf
and here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9460423/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic

All that said, riding above zone 2, i.e. deep and somewhat rapid breathing, requires carbohydrates or you'll bonk. One can train to ride at a moderate pace without carbs but it's easy to go over that limit on a long ride and get the bonk.

Black wallnut 

Absolute ********! how many acres do you farm and where? Growers do not kill wheat. They let it go through the natural cycle. I spent 5 years in the Ag fertilizer/chemical business where the majority of our customers were dry land wheat farmers. Roundup was used mainly pre tillage. Sometime with high weed pressure it was used on a wiper to kill wild rye or kochia.