Lack of endurance energy on low carb plan...
11-14-19, 10:24 AM
#76
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1. Your performance would take a nose-dive
2. You'd burn muscle for energy
3. You'd likely be at a real risk of dying if you bonked as you'd have nothing to fall back on
But, in general, even elite endurance athletes, who are obviously quite skinny, have enough excess fat on them to ride for hundreds of miles.
11-14-19, 10:29 AM
#77
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Well, essentially everyone has spare fat to burn. But, if somehow, some person did reduce their fat to a critically low level (like a pro bodybuilder who's got a contest in the very near future) a few things would happen.
1. Your performance would take a nose-dive
2. You'd burn muscle for energy
3. You'd likely be at a real risk of dying if you bonked as you'd have nothing to fall back on
But, in general, even elite endurance athletes, who are obviously quite skinny, have enough excess fat on them to ride for hundreds of miles.
1. Your performance would take a nose-dive
2. You'd burn muscle for energy
3. You'd likely be at a real risk of dying if you bonked as you'd have nothing to fall back on
But, in general, even elite endurance athletes, who are obviously quite skinny, have enough excess fat on them to ride for hundreds of miles.
11-14-19, 11:09 AM
#78
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hmm yeah,, those guys are impressive, I couldn't do that.
But honeslty I don't really follow the "ultra endurace" scenes, and the only reason why I look it up is because in almost every discussion about diet, nutrition, and athletic performance,.. there is ALWAYS someone(s) from the keto world chiming in about how being fat-adapted (whatever that means) and ketosis would do very well in ultra endurance events,.. it's as if their claim to athletic legitimacy is ultra endurance.. and in the process they muddle the parameters of "athletic performance", talk about moving the athletic performance goal post. But ok, when I look up the ultra scenes, I find that in fact most of the fastest people there are in fact either on a high carb diet, some mix diet, or completely vegans,.. and those who are on the keto diet.. would need a relatively huge injection of carbohydrates during their competitive run. Yeah, keto this, keto that,.. then carbs for competitive runs. So why even bother with keto when vegans and non-keto people have run the Appalachian Trail and others similar feats at impressive times equating or surpassing most guys on keto diet? Why bother with keto and lose the high intensity performance part of life? not to mention following a very restrictive diet?
The bottomline is very simple, humans have evolved with 2 very sophisticated ways of metabolizing fuels (ie, fat and carbohydrate metabolism pathways), if you take away any of those fuel sources, then performance is bound to be affected. This is all over the literature: no carbs, no performance. No human population has been shown to be in ketosis, not the Eskimos, not the Maasai, no one. But apparently in the Western Hemisphere, there is an enclave of ketosis from mostly rich well-to-do white'ish middle-ish class? (with research sponsored by the meat and dairy associations). For the rest of the world, carbohydrates are still the preferred choice of food (for many reasons, one of which is economic).
I personally don't like to use the ultra events in my discussions of athletic performance though. Reason is when using such events, I would have to look at the breadth of competition, and to be honest, competitions in these events are almost nonexisting, and anyone, you and I, all know that when competition is lacking, then so is the quality of performance we see from it. It sounds like i'm diminishing the achievements of participants in these events, which I'm not. Don't like to be accused of moving the athletic performance goal post!
But honeslty I don't really follow the "ultra endurace" scenes, and the only reason why I look it up is because in almost every discussion about diet, nutrition, and athletic performance,.. there is ALWAYS someone(s) from the keto world chiming in about how being fat-adapted (whatever that means) and ketosis would do very well in ultra endurance events,.. it's as if their claim to athletic legitimacy is ultra endurance.. and in the process they muddle the parameters of "athletic performance", talk about moving the athletic performance goal post. But ok, when I look up the ultra scenes, I find that in fact most of the fastest people there are in fact either on a high carb diet, some mix diet, or completely vegans,.. and those who are on the keto diet.. would need a relatively huge injection of carbohydrates during their competitive run. Yeah, keto this, keto that,.. then carbs for competitive runs. So why even bother with keto when vegans and non-keto people have run the Appalachian Trail and others similar feats at impressive times equating or surpassing most guys on keto diet? Why bother with keto and lose the high intensity performance part of life? not to mention following a very restrictive diet?
The bottomline is very simple, humans have evolved with 2 very sophisticated ways of metabolizing fuels (ie, fat and carbohydrate metabolism pathways), if you take away any of those fuel sources, then performance is bound to be affected. This is all over the literature: no carbs, no performance. No human population has been shown to be in ketosis, not the Eskimos, not the Maasai, no one. But apparently in the Western Hemisphere, there is an enclave of ketosis from mostly rich well-to-do white'ish middle-ish class? (with research sponsored by the meat and dairy associations). For the rest of the world, carbohydrates are still the preferred choice of food (for many reasons, one of which is economic).
I personally don't like to use the ultra events in my discussions of athletic performance though. Reason is when using such events, I would have to look at the breadth of competition, and to be honest, competitions in these events are almost nonexisting, and anyone, you and I, all know that when competition is lacking, then so is the quality of performance we see from it. It sounds like i'm diminishing the achievements of participants in these events, which I'm not. Don't like to be accused of moving the athletic performance goal post!
11-14-19, 11:11 AM
#79
☢
Well, essentially everyone has spare fat to burn. But, if somehow, some person did reduce their fat to a critically low level (like a pro bodybuilder who's got a contest in the very near future) a few things would happen.
1. Your performance would take a nose-dive
2. You'd burn muscle for energy
3. You'd likely be at a real risk of dying if you bonked as you'd have nothing to fall back on
But, in general, even elite endurance athletes, who are obviously quite skinny, have enough excess fat on them to ride for hundreds of miles.
1. Your performance would take a nose-dive
2. You'd burn muscle for energy
3. You'd likely be at a real risk of dying if you bonked as you'd have nothing to fall back on
But, in general, even elite endurance athletes, who are obviously quite skinny, have enough excess fat on them to ride for hundreds of miles.
11-14-19, 01:48 PM
#80
Senior Member
Go back and read the article you linked more carefully and see if it matches up with your summary, or better yet read the actual article its referencing https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.c....1113/JP273230
right, I read the article above, and it matches exactly with what I've been saying. Perhaps I was not clear enough in my explanations? Like I said I'm not an exercise physiologist and don't claim expertise in this field, just here for a casual internet discussion.
So here are the key points from the article above:
Key points
- Three weeks of intensified training and mild energy deficit in elite race walkers increases peak aerobic capacity independent of dietary support.
- Adaptation to a ketogenic low carbohydrate, high fat (LCHF) diet markedly increases rates of whole‐body fat oxidation during exercise in race walkers over a range of exercise intensities.
- The increased rates of fat oxidation result in reduced economy (increased oxygen demand for a given speed) at velocities that translate to real‐life race performance in elite race walkers.
- In contrast to training with diets providing chronic or periodised high carbohydrate availability, adaptation to an LCHF diet impairs performance in elite endurance athletes despite a significant improvement in peak aerobic capacity.
People on a high fat will use more fat as fuel substrate, and their body has up-regulated the fat metabolism machinery (eg, enzymes, transports, etc). Of course their rate of fat metabolism will be high.
It's just like people on a high carb (HC) diet will up-regulate the carbohydrate machinery, and of course their rate of carb metabolism will be high.
But the question when it comes to athletic "performance" is, which is more efficient, or economical, when it comes to utilizing oxygen? The ability to burn more grams of fat per minute (rate of fat utilization) does not equate to exercise economy (which is important for performance). And the above article (and many other articles in this field) states that carbs are require to be more economical at using oxygen, especially when the exercise effort starts to go over 70%+ of Vo2max.
A person on a LCHF diet will be predominately be forced to rely on fats as fuel, but fat oxidation is a slow process, and when exercise intensity changes, he will still can only rely on fat as his primary source of fuel, and this hurts his economy at higher Vo2max efforts. A person on a HC diet is more flexible fuel source, he still can use fat as fuel as the lower exercise efforts (40-60% vo2max) and then switch to more reliance on carbohydrate as fuel as exercise intensity increases, and this makes the HC more efficient at using the available oxygen. Yes, the HC person will use less fat as fuel when compared to a LCHF person at a certain vo2max% effort; the HC person is using a mixture of fat and carbs, but the HC person is actually more economical at using the available oxygen.
Bottomline is that the person who uses both fats and carbs as fuel sources are the best at optimizing his available oxygen, ESPECIALLY at intensity above 70% vo2max.
Just about the only claim to fame that the LCHF group has left is the "ultra events", saying that their fat-adaptation allows them to run ultra marathons with boundless energy. And as I have shown just by googling, there are in fact MANY record holders in ultra marathon events who are eating/living the HC diet life. At this point, can you give me a good reason why anyone interested in performance, from 1 hr bike ride, to 4 hr, to ultra events, should be going keto at all? All evidence show that a HC diet is more flexible, allows high intensity performance, all the way up to ultra events. (And I have not mentioned about the restrictive nature of staying on a keto diet yet).
Last edited by aclinjury; 11-14-19 at 02:08 PM.
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11-14-19, 09:56 PM
#82
Senior Member
The dominant guy has been Christopher Strasser, winning 6 of the last 9 years, and the last 3 recent consecutive years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_Across_America
His nutrition for the entire race? A boatload of.... carbs!
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My nutrition plan for RAAM is very easy: It contains liquids only, the carbohydrate/electrolyte drink "Hi End Energizer" from GS Food Sporternährung and the fully bilanced nutrition "Ensure Plus" from Abb.ott.
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And his training regimen? He does high intensity training in addition to endurance training. So even in an ultra endurance event, high intensity training is important for performance. And you can only do quality high intensity training if you use carbs.
https://www.pezcyclingnews.com/inter...toph-strasser/
So yeah, carb the f* up!
Last edited by aclinjury; 11-14-19 at 10:08 PM.
