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School me on Suntour

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School me on Suntour

Old 12-10-19, 06:36 PM
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School me on Suntour

In the last few months I've been thinking of a way to experience the oft-claimed performance gulf between Campy's traditional parallelogram derailleurs and the slant-parallelogram versions from Japan. The idea of turning one of my bikes into a kind of rotating test-bed appealed to me the more I thought about it. Because it has the cheapest and most-easily-replicated finish, I chose the Casati as the base for this and all future iterations.

After running across a lovely set of Superbe calipers, I decided to search out some Suntour items to try out on the Casati. So far I've picked up a pair of second-generation Cyclone derailleurs I will be mounting during the winter break; I've already mounted the brakes. Well, kinda. See, the Campy housing will fit (yay - I like to re-use wherever possible), but I have to omit the ferrules at the adjuster to make it so. I looked around on the forum and so far have not seen a single photo of a Superbe caliper using a ferrule at the caliper's adjuster. Is this Suntour's intended setup, or simply what works?

I'm fastidious about preparation of my machines. If a part is intended to be used, I use it. Ferrules are a big deal to me when it comes to braking and gear systems because they allow me to fine tune both systems - and I'm the kind of guy who sets his brake blocks 2mm from the brake tracks.

Until I can locate a pair of Superbe levers in super shape, I will use a Campy pair. There will be a ferrule at the lever end, of course. I have located a ferrule that fits at the rear derailleur, too. I was happy to learn a Campy brake housing ferrule was just the right size. Are there any setting-up secrets I need to know about Cyclone derailleurs?

I'll have some pics up on the shift over in a few days. I have a spiffy new camera on the way

DD
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Old 12-10-19, 06:47 PM
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Skip the Cyclone and go straight to mid 80's to early 90's Superbe/Superbe Pro.
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Old 12-10-19, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by nesteel View Post
Skip the Cyclone and go straight to mid 80's to early 90's Superbe/Superbe Pro.
Well, I have to use what I have now, first. My mom always told me to finish what was on my plate before I could have dessert

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Old 12-10-19, 06:56 PM
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With you 100% on this.

It is a detail that is forsaken all too often.

I will spend a afternoon making it happen and did just that recently. It was a PITA as it took me awhile to figure out the barrel adjusters were two different size's where the housing went in but looked the same. Found a ferrule for the rear, nice fit, done. The front was smaller, finally found a smaller ferrule, wouldn't fit over the housing on the end, it was plastic/nylon something so I tried to stretch it with some tapered implements to no avail. Finally trimmed off the outer casing so it would fit, still a bit sloppy so I will revisit.

The ferrule junctions can be problematic, they should never be allowed to eat themselves up at all IMO.
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Old 12-10-19, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac View Post
With you 100% on this.

It is a detail that is forsaken all too often. The ferrule junctions can be problematic, they should never be allowed to eat themselves up at all IMO.
Exactly. Campy uses bevel-ended ferrules and the sockets at the adjuster and top of the lever bodies are beveled to match; this attention to detail means if installed as intended one will end up with a solid, responsive feel. Going outside these parameters - perhaps by omitting ferrules altogether - will result in sloppiness and degrade performance.

The socket appears to also be beveled - or at least rounded - at the bottom on the Superbe adjuster. Since it is alloy vice Campy's more forgiving chromed steel, I don't want to set this up incorrectly. If there's a certain housing and ferrule combination I should be using for best performance, I hope someone here can clue me in on it. I'm going to visit my LBS tomorrow with one of the adjusters and see if they can come up with anything.

DD
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Old 12-10-19, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
Exactly. Campy uses bevel-ended ferrules and the sockets at the adjuster and top of the lever bodies are beveled to match; this attention to detail means if installed as intended one will end up with a solid, responsive feel. Going outside these parameters - perhaps by omitting ferrules altogether - will result in sloppiness and degrade performance.

The socket appears to also be beveled - or at least rounded - at the bottom on the Superbe adjuster. Since it is alloy vice Campy's more forgiving chromed steel, I don't want to set this up incorrectly. If there's a certain housing and ferrule combination I should be using for best performance, I hope someone here can clue me in on it. I'm going to visit my LBS tomorrow with one of the adjusters and see if they can come up with anything.

DD
This is where Andy got into trouble, his fix for some things was so abstract that he ended up with the engorged headtube debacle and others.

I have been a mechanic/technician all my life and often end up reinventing the wheel in situations like this, some you know are not right with something missing but if you don't know or can't figure out what it is, you have to wing it and apply logic that may be misguided. Try doing that at the dragstrip when the next round is in 15 minutes. I have solved a lot of problems in many arenas, on the fly with minimal time and resources and in a full service shop with complete resources, tools and time, either one can result in a good outcome if you apply yourself and get lucky much of the time or total failure despite your best efforts and intentions. I have been lucky more often than not which as we say in drag racing "way rather be lucky than good" but you also make your own luck by being prepared, applying yourself and being cognizant of the possible failures.

I'm probably no real expert on the cable thing but I know what will not function well in the long run and I how to mitigate it.
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Old 12-10-19, 08:00 PM
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DD, look for a 4mm cable housing and ferrule set up, it should fit quite nicely, but won't have the nylon liner in the cable housing. As a precaution on those housings I always shoot a light grease into the housing with a Dualco gun. You can pre-load the cable with lubricant to make it work as easy as the nylon lined cable housings. It should be easy to find the 4mm ferrules for this housing. HTH, MH
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Old 12-10-19, 08:05 PM
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Tons of brake levers, calipers, frame housing stop braze-ons, and derailleurs were designed to be used without ferrules. I've installed and used quite a few and have never had a problem with shifting or braking or noticed any degradation in performance or durability. The purported danger of the housing unwinding is way overstated. I would just get over your bias and use the components as they were designed.
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Old 12-10-19, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by nesteel View Post
Skip the Cyclone and go straight to mid 80's to early 90's Superbe/Superbe Pro.
Why would you want to skip Cyclone? The early stuff was some of the best, lighter than Superbe and beautifully made.

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Old 12-10-19, 08:31 PM
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If you're just interested in performance difference, just swap the rear derailleurs. IMO that's the only place the two groups differ.
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Old 12-10-19, 08:40 PM
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I have a set of Superbe Pro hidden spring calipers that I bought along with some matching Superbe Pro aero brake levers and ended up just relying on various iterations of Dura Ace dual pivot calipers from different series (7403, 7700, 7800) on my road bikes. The SunTour brakeset sits unused by me, although I did fit aero Gran Compe Celeste green aero brake levers to replace the perished originals. So I don’t know about specific ferrules and which ones are needed for a proper install of SunTour brake adjuster barrels or the socket for the aero lever. I don’t think any ferrules are used to make the housing fit tight with the Dura Ace calipers I mentioned. The only brake levers that I previously was aware required internal ferrules to work correctly are Gran Compe Aero.

I love it that you plan to do a build with the 2nd gen Cyclone derailleurs. I’m assuming that the 2nd gen RD you are talking about was still just friction only and not Accushift (yet). If these Cyclone derailleurs have a less than perfect finish, do you intend to polish out the scratches or refresh the finish in some way? If you do, could you document it with photos and explanations? This would be great since while SunTour parts are highly regarded by many, you sometimes run across folks who are less than impressed and set them up poorly or worse, parts that have just been nelected or abused terribly.

I have a lovely microlite rear cassette hub that is silver with clear anodizing but was horribly shop worn when I purchased it off a person on eBay a few years back. I have since acquired a matching microlite front hub (used) for very little money (say $5) but it too has many, many scratches in the clear anodizing.

I have a roll of 3M micro abrasive 3” sanding discs that I would like to find a flexible arbor for. I would like to play around with abrasives like this on damaged silver bike components in order to restore or improve the finish. I might practice on some donor bike cast always for practice. Some guy recently had talked about driving the rivets out of a Dura Ace 7400 RD for some unknown reason - I want to say he thought he could lighten the RD by grinding away metal and he thought he needed to drive out rivets for a cage that had nothing wrong with its articulating mechanisms, the pivots were tight.

There aren’t many pristine Superbe Pro cranksets around still, the faceted profile on the arms and the polished interior spider set these apart aesthetically from junkier ones. This is why I was digressing about ultra fine sanding discs in the previous paragraph. There are so many scratched up used cranks from the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s and 2000’s, including SunTour Superbe Pro ones. Perhaps you could document your SunTour build for us?

Last edited by masi61; 12-10-19 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 12-10-19, 08:57 PM
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When it came to non-indexed friction derailleurs, Suntour will always slay Campagnolo, big time! No contest!

Last edited by Chombi1; 12-10-19 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 12-10-19, 09:09 PM
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Try Cyclone vs Super Record over a 7-speed cluster. I doubt you'll see any real difference unless you attempt to use a rear cog bigger than 28t or the difference in the double chainrings is greater than 10t.
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Old 12-10-19, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk View Post
DD, look for a 4mm cable housing and ferrule set up, it should fit quite nicely, but won't have the nylon liner in the cable housing. As a precaution on those housings I always shoot a light grease into the housing with a Dualco gun. You can pre-load the cable with lubricant to make it work as easy as the nylon lined cable housings. It should be easy to find the 4mm ferrules for this housing. HTH, MH
Thank you - that's the kind of assistance I was hoping for

I will hit up my LBS and ask them what they have in 4mm. I've greased inner cables before, so I won't be too concerned about the lack of nylon liner if I can find this stuff.

DD
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Old 12-10-19, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by TenGrainBread View Post
Tons of brake levers, calipers, frame housing stop braze-ons, and derailleurs were designed to be used without ferrules. I've installed and used quite a few and have never had a problem with shifting or braking or noticed any degradation in performance or durability. The purported danger of the housing unwinding is way overstated. I would just get over your bias and use the components as they were designed.
Cool - but is this brakeset one of those designed to work without ferrules? I don't know - I haven't used Superbe brakes since the mid-80s.

Bias? If you mean my habit using ferrules at each end of the housing when installing Campy brakes, well, that's not bias - it's textbook installation.

DD
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Old 12-10-19, 09:38 PM
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Put a 1st gen 6 speed friction Sprint (under 28 teeth) up against anything after hard mileage. Deadpool tight. Still have it.
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Old 12-10-19, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
If you're just interested in performance difference, just swap the rear derailleurs. IMO that's the only place the two groups differ.
Well, I did get both as a set, for a great price, so I'll try them both together. Besides, the point is to end up, eventually, with a bike that has little to no Campagnolo as is the norm for all my other rides.

DD
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Old 12-10-19, 09:41 PM
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If you grind the cable housing straight or to match the bottom of the port it fits in, you are well on the road to success.
a small awl to insure things are clear - helps too, esp with lined housing.
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Old 12-10-19, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
I have a set of Superbe Pro hidden spring calipers that I bought along with some matching Superbe Pro aero brake levers and ended up just relying on various iterations of Dura Ace dual pivot calipers from different series (7403, 7700, 7800) on my road bikes. The SunTour brakeset sits unused by me, although I did fit aero Gran Compe Celeste green aero brake levers to replace the perished originals. So I don’t know about specific ferrules and which ones are needed for a proper install of SunTour brake adjuster barrels or the socket for the aero lever. I don’t think any ferrules are used to make the housing fit tight with the Dura Ace calipers I mentioned. The only brake levers that I previously was aware required internal ferrules to work correctly are Gran Compe Aero.

I love it that you plan to do a build with the 2nd gen Cyclone derailleurs. I’m assuming that the 2nd gen RD you are talking about was still just friction only and not Accushift (yet). If these Cyclone derailleurs have a less than perfect finish, do you intend to polish out the scratches or refresh the finish in some way? If you do, could you document it with photos and explanations? This would be great since while SunTour parts are highly regarded by many, you sometimes run across folks who are less than impressed and set them up poorly or worse, parts that have just been nelected or abused terribly.

I have a lovely microlite rear cassette hub that is silver with clear anodizing but was horribly shop worn when I purchased it off a person on eBay a few years back. I have since acquired a matching microlite front hub (used) for very little money (say $5) but it too has many, many scratches in the clear anodizing.

I have a roll of 3M micro abrasive 3” sanding discs that I would like to find a flexible arbor for. I would like to play around with abrasives like this on damaged silver bike components in order to restore or improve the finish. I might practice on some donor bike cast always for practice. Some guy recently had talked about driving the rivets out of a Dura Ace 7400 RD for some unknown reason - I want to say he thought he could lighten the RD by grinding away metal and he thought he needed to drive out rivets for a cage that had nothing wrong with its articulating mechanisms, the pivots were tight.

There aren’t many pristine Superbe Pro cranksets around still, the faceted profile on the arms and the polished interior spider set these apart aesthetically from junkier ones. This is why I was digressing about ultra fine sanding discs in the previous paragraph. There are so many scratched up used cranks from the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s and 2000’s, including SunTour Superbe Pro ones. Perhaps you could document your SunTour build for us?
This is probably where I will document this evolving build, so no problem there. I am awaiting a new camera which should arrive in a day or two, so pics will have to wait, but they'll be up soon.

I got the two derailleurs from out own FSOT thread, and they are both in near-new condition - really fine-looking pieces of kit. So, no, I won't be doing any polishing or whatnot.

As for the crankset, I picked up a Campy Gran Sport 3-arm set from @shnibop a couple weeks ago. I've always liked their looks and decided I wanted one on this bike to try out for awhile. I might look for something else in future, but right now I don't have another crankset model in mind.

DD
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Old 12-10-19, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Chombi1 View Post
When it came to non-indexed friction derailleurs, Suntour will always slay Campagnolo, big time! No contest!
We shall see, won't we?

DD
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Old 12-10-19, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Try Cyclone vs Super Record over a 7-speed cluster. I doubt you'll see any real difference unless you attempt to use a rear cog bigger than 28t or the difference in the double chainrings is greater than 10t.
I doubt I will see jack, either, but what the hell. The derailleurs are beautiful, black and silver just like the Super Record units they replace, and period correct. I'm just trying to broaden my horizons a little

DD
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Old 12-10-19, 09:50 PM
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Example pro teams back when using Suntour. KAS, Buckler ~ Colnago's with Suntour.. Pro rider Jan Raas was gold for using Suntour on multiple teams, Raleigh too.

Agree with the above noting Cyclone, some versions lighter than Superbe / S. Pro. Though some parts of the Cyclone group are beastly, such as the pedals. Have reference material and DL of many Suntour catalogs. Really light weight weenie stuff. Would be fun to slice and drill one up.. hehe. The variety of shift component offerings is remarkable.

Brakesets were mostly Dia Compe. Higher end can interchange parts of component between branded names. Sanshin (also called Sunshine and Sansin) made the hubs. Spiffed up to a higher level. You can really score some super parts on eBay for pittance that are not labeled Suntour.

Thought I read somewhere Suntour brand of retro parts is coming or already producing. The tall flange freehubs / cass. are beaut.
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Old 12-10-19, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
If you grind the cable housing straight or to match the bottom of the port it fits in, you are well on the road to success.
a small awl to insure things are clear - helps too, esp with lined housing.
The shape of the bottom of the "port" is exactly why I dislike missing ferrules: Campy and these Suntours use a beveled bottom. Sticking a flat-finished housing or ferrule in a beveled port doesn't allow for a solid base.

I've got a nice fix for now. I removed the threaded steel ports from the Campy brakes I took off the bike and threaded them into the alloy Suntour adjustment knobs, which allows me to keep the whole Campy housing and ferrules at both ends. I might just leave it like that.

DD
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Old 12-10-19, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
I doubt I will see jack, either, but what the hell. The derailleurs are beautiful, black and silver just like the Super Record units they replace, and period correct. I'm just trying to broaden my horizons a little

DD
And isn't that the spice of life?
I've got Campy NR on one bike and I like it. A lot!
First gen. Suntour Cyclone on another. Again, I like it a lot!
Both are gorgeous. Both work great. I'm just glad I live in a world where I can have both.
Good luck with this build. If I know anything about you, I know it will be a stunner.
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Old 12-10-19, 11:19 PM
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Bikes: 2009 Handsome Devil, 1987 Trek 520 Cirrus, 1978 Motobecane Grand Touring, 1987 Nishiki Cresta GT, 1989 Specialized Allez Former bikes; 1986 Miyata Trail Runner, 1979 Miyata 912, 2011 VO Rando, 1999 Cannondale R800, 1986 Schwinn Passage

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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
Thank you - that's the kind of assistance I was hoping for

I will hit up my LBS and ask them what they have in 4mm. I've greased inner cables before, so I won't be too concerned about the lack of nylon liner if I can find this stuff.

DD
another option is the step down ferrule that goes from 5mm to 4mm and has helped me many times .Jagwire makes some in a 100 pc bottle, got some from Nigara a few years ago looks likes Treefort has some
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