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Do gravel tires feel a lot slower to you than road tires?

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Do gravel tires feel a lot slower to you than road tires?

Old 08-28-18, 10:34 AM
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The tubeless gravel kings are ok, I wouldn't really call them good. About average I think. The 700cx38 size rolls way slower than comparable Compass tires and seems more in line with the puncture-belted Paselas than a good road tire like the GP4K or Turbo Cotton. ETA: The 650b size gravel kings are slugs - very stiff and do not roll well at all.

The Microskin G-One AA is probably the fastest rolling 38/40ish knobbie other than the Compass Steilacoom. Gravel kings are on a slower level IME.

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Old 08-28-18, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
The tubeless gravel kings are ok, I wouldn't really call them good. About average I think. The 700cx38 size rolls way slower than comparable Compass tires and seems more in line with the puncture-belted Paselas than a good road tire like the GP4K or Turbo Cotton. ETA: The 650b size gravel kings are slugs - very stiff and do not roll well at all.

The Microskin G-One AA is probably the fastest rolling 38/40ish knobbie other than the Compass Steilacoom. Gravel kings are on a slower level IME.
Interesting. I'm kinda surprised since the 38c GK weighs 320g which is lighter(and thus more supple?) than the compass bon jon which has been tested as one of the fastest https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...-jon-pass-2018 and has the same ZSG tread. i really wish RR data was available. The closest I can find for the g-one AA is the Big-One which i believe is the same as the g-one speed https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...e-big-one-2016
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Old 08-28-18, 12:03 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Interesting. I'm kinda surprised since the 38c GK weighs 320g which is lighter(and thus more supple?)
GK is lighter than the Compass tires because the tread rubber is thinner at the centerline, but it's got a bead-to-bead protection layer which stiffens the tire significantly.

I haven't actually ridden on GKs, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Compass tires roll better.

than the compass bon jon which has been tested as one of the fastest https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...-jon-pass-2018
The Bon Jon actually did fairly poorly in that test IMO. It tested faster than most other tires in the website's touring category. It is not a touring tire.
And the Bon Jon did extremely poorly in Tom Anhalt's testing on rollers.

I'm interested in whether these small-drum tests accurately capture the relative impact of sidewall flex versus tread flex. Tom Anhalt thinks they do, but his confidence seems to be based on a fairly shallow study, and I'm not convinced it's been well-characterized for the general case.

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Old 08-28-18, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
GK is lighter than the Compass tires because the tread rubber is thinner at the centerline, but it's got a bead-to-bead protection layer which stiffens the tire significantly.

I haven't actually ridden on GKs, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Compass tires roll better.


The Bon Jon actually did fairly poorly in that test IMO. It tested faster than most other tires in the website's touring category. It is not a touring tire.
And the Bon Jon did extremely poorly in Tom Anhalt's testing on rollers.

I'm interested in whether these small-drum tests accurately capture the relative impact of sidewall flex versus tread flex. Tom Anhalt thinks they do, but his confidence seems to be based on a fairly shallow study, and I'm not convinced it's been well-characterized for the general case.
My understanding is that overall casing stiffness doesn't really affect the RR, and only at the contact patch affects RR so a thinner tread should perform better. 18.6W at 60 psi is pretty respectable for a 35c, certainly not expecting it to be in the gp4000s range but better than say the gp4 season and about the same is a michelin pro4 SC and that was with it tubed, set up tubeless I expect the number are even lower. I do agree that roller tests may not be completely representative of real world RR. I haven't ridden the bonjons but I know plenty of people that do since I'm based in the PNW and they seem to think they roll fast on pavement, plenty of the randonneurs run em and occasionally show up to the fast group rides.
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Old 08-28-18, 12:59 PM
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The gravel kings are much stiffer both at the sidewall and the center than any compass tire - due partially to the puncture layer and partially due to the quality/size of the casing threads. Panaracer has stated as well as Jan Heine that the Compass tires specifically use smaller threads, more of them and different rubber compounds to create their tires. Branded tires from Panaracer as well OEM rebrands from Soma, VO, etc. are not available in the same quality casing. Reading between the lines this appears to be a contracting issue so this may change in the future.

What's interesting is that WTB can and does produce tires that are as supple/fast as Compass tires with a better tubeless bead but does not appear to be interesting in creating a full size range as Compass/Grand Bois have done. If I could get 650bx42 and 700cx40 WTB Horizon/Byway tires I would be set for life. They're excellent tires.

This thread, has some interesting info from Tom A.

Casing stiffness has a huge effect on drum roller resistance because the tire deforms so much around the roller both on a lateral axis and a horizontal axis. I suspect it would have less effect on the road but would be very difficult to measure.

I'm also unconvinced of the efficacy of testing tires with any tread that protrudes more than mere file tread on rollers. This past year I've ridden several MTB tires I picked from Bicycle Rolling Resistance and have found that once I leave pavement the rolling resistance varies greatly from the site's roller measurements. The fastest dirt tire I've ridden performed poorly on the BRR testing but is phenomenal on non-pavement including singletrack and gravel. Rollers favor a specific tread pattern as well as tire cross-section. Rounder tires appear to show higher rolling resistance on a drum than they doing in real life.

My own personal opinions are shaped by rolldown testing I do on a pavement descent, a short gravel segment with consistent surface and a slalom section of singletrack. I think rolldown testing is the only good way to test a tire intended for off-road use but it's hard to market as each test period is only comparable to itself due to small temperature/wind changes affecting results. So you end up with a series of "control vs. tire x"control vs. tire y" and not "tire x vs. tire y vs. tize z" that can be extrapolated from much more controlled indoor roller testing.

I haven't ridden the bonjons but I know plenty of people that do since I'm based in the PNW and they seem to think they roll fast on pavement, plenty of the randonneurs run em and occasionally show up to the fast group rides.
Keep in mind that regardless of whether or not the tires are fast, a huge portion of the population that is riding the tires and imparting their observations/feelings has not ridden truly fast tires. BJP Pass tires are undoubtedly a fast tire compared to the heavy/stiff touring and light cross tires in 32+ width a lot of people were/are still riding but they pale in comparison to cotton tubulars or hand made clinchers using true 280+ tpi casings with small threads. Especially once the additional weight/width is factored in.
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Old 08-28-18, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
Casing stiffness has a huge effect on drum roller resistance because the tire deforms so much around the roller both on a lateral axis and a horizontal axis. I suspect it would have less effect on the road but would be very difficult to measure.
If it's significant, it could possibly be tested by comparing differently-designed tires on a tiny drum and a huge drum, and seeing if their relative performance changes.

Intuitively, it seems to me that the drums would underemphasize radial suppleness relative to tread/axial suppleness. The sidewalls smush down and outward whether a tire is on the road or on a drum, but tread rubber sits a lot flatter fore-aft on a road than it does on a small drum.

I'm also unconvinced of the efficacy of testing tires with any tread that protrudes more than mere file tread on rollers.
I can see several potential issues once you throw knobs and off-pavement riding into the mix.

First, the firmness of the riding surface will affect how much knobs actually flex/deflect/whatever off of it. A knob that bends against pavement may just sink into a soft or loose surface, which probably has implications for the amount of energy wasted.

Second, large knobs at the centerline can probably have "suspension"-like issues on firm surfaces. I mean, if you ride really aggressive MTB tires on pavement, you can feel the bicycle rumbling from the tires. This effect, if significant, is probably one of those things that demands field testing to characterize.

Third, on loose surfaces, the power required to plow through the surface might matter.
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Old 08-28-18, 01:55 PM
  #82  
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interesting discussion on ST and here now, did one of you ask about the unicorn treadless wide tire? I want to hear Tom's opinion on that. He seems to be stuck on the challenges, which my only experience is with challenge cross tubulars but they have the most supple casing of them all even though they use polyester thread compared to some of the cottons
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Old 08-28-18, 02:15 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
The reason they feel slower is that the higher volume tires transmit vibration to your body at a different frequency. You might be surprised that they may not be slower at all.

I've been riding my touring bike lately (something like 1000 miles in the last 3 months), and I'm setting new PRs on Strava nearly every day, PRs that were set with my road bike. Maybe I'm getting stronger, too, but my touring bike weighs ~30 pounds!

Don't assume it's slower just because it "feels" slower.
agreed, run 23c tires at 120 and it may "feel" faster, but it is not.
once I re-tuned my perceptions, i have found that fatter tires with high enough TPI and minimal tread are not much slower than my 25c GP4000s were. The advantages of the larger tires are worth it for me.
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Old 08-29-18, 04:22 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
The Bon Jon actually did fairly poorly in that test IMO. It tested faster than most other tires in the website's touring category. It is not a touring tire.
If that test is accurate, the Bon Jon did VERY poorly.

The Vittoria Voyager Hypers outperformed it, they are much heavier and have puncture protection, and also cost half of the price... The Schwalbe Marathon Almotion did a bit better than the Hypers and those are even heavier, pretty darn burly touring tyres.

And of course the rolling resistance test didn't mention the horrible Compass tubeless stories.
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Old 08-29-18, 03:50 PM
  #85  
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FWIW if you follow the ST thread, Tom A thinks there may have been inconsistent batches of tires, and he recommends the compass snoqualmie pass which has the same construction as the bon jon in a 44c. My experience with schwalbe marathons is even if they roll comparably, they are awful to actually ride on and had to be run at least 10psi lower than anything else of a similar width to even be bearable
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Old 08-29-18, 10:13 PM
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I've noticed inconsistencies in the Grand Bois branded Panaracer produced tires as well as some Panaracer branded models as well. Would make sense that Compass may have the same issue as they're all coming out of the same factory.
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Old 08-30-18, 04:17 AM
  #87  
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Trolling time: with any tire you will not fly like a bird. Why bother then?

On a serious note: this thread needs real life numbers. Not drum measurements.
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Old 08-30-18, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
The Microskin G-One AA is probably the fastest rolling 38/40ish knobbie other than the Compass Steilacoom. Gravel kings are on a slower level IME.
Which one is the AA, allround? Any info on the actual widths of the 35 and 40?

I like my GK SKs very much but I want to try something new because... Just because.
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Old 08-30-18, 07:27 AM
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How are there 4 pages of discussion parsing out this question?

Yes. A 40mm treaded gravel tire is slower than a 28mm Conti GP4K. Period. For all the reasons.
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Old 08-30-18, 08:07 AM
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@Banzai

Did you even bother to read the first post?

Originally Posted by johngwheeler View Post
Is this transition from road to gravel tires normal? Is is a question of feel more than absolute speed? (I would expect maybe a 2km/h average speed drop from what I have read, but it "feels" like a lot more.
...
What has your experience been?
@Facanh yes I meant the all-around. I had the 40-622 model on rims 23mm wide inside and they were 41mm wide and 37mm tall. I only did a couple rides but they did not expand at all while I was using them.
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Old 08-30-18, 09:10 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
@Facanh yes I meant the all-around. I had the 40-622 model on rims 23mm wide inside and they were 41mm wide and 37mm tall. I only did a couple rides but they did not expand at all while I was using them.
Sweet, pretty much exactly like my 38 SKs! Wish the G-s came in 45mm too.
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Old 09-03-18, 06:37 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
I
The fastest rolling gravel tire is the 700x35 Hutchinson Override.
I doubt they faster than the Schwalbe G-one Speed 700 x 38c. Not quite slick, the whole tyre surface is made of 1mm knobblies.
I have the 29 x 2.35's and they are incredibly fast on tarmac. As fast as some road bike tyres for sure.
https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/schwalbe...e-2017-2655715
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Old 09-03-18, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by tablatom View Post
I doubt they faster than the Schwalbe G-one Speed 700 x 38c. Not quite slick, the whole tyre surface is made of 1mm knobblies.
I have the 29 x 2.35's and they are incredibly fast on tarmac. As fast as some road bike tyres for sure.
https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/schwalbe...e-2017-2655715
I own both the Schwalbe G-one Speed and the Hutchenson Override. The Override is lighter, more supple and is nearly slick at the center section. The Hutchenson is faster.
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Old 09-03-18, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
I own both the Schwalbe G-one Speed and the Hutchenson Override. The Override is lighter, more supple and is nearly slick at the center section. The Hutchenson is faster.
Whats its puncture protection like?
Snakeskin is very good, 3000 miles no puncture.
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Old 09-03-18, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by tablatom View Post
Whats its puncture protection like?
Snakeskin is very good, 3000 miles no puncture.
I have not has a puncture with either. I'm 230 bs and I ride gravel in the Ozarks. I've passed many cyclist at these events who have punctured, some of them are on Schwalbes.

You should read this thread, if you need more information: https://www.bikeforums.net/cyclocros...res-print.html
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Old 09-03-18, 07:32 AM
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Thanks, nice thread.
2017 or 2018 (can't remember) Womans Gravel world champion one some races using Specialized Trigger sport tyres. Quite a bit heavier than the Hutchenson Override.
Horses for courses.
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Old 09-03-18, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by johngwheeler View Post
I've just put on some Clement X'PLOR MSO 40mm clinchers on to my Giant TCX, for my first gravel ride. Previously the bike was in "commuter mode" with 28mm GP4000S2 tires.

But, boy, the 40mm treaded tires certainly feel a lot slower to me than the slick road tires on paved surfaces! I haven't done any timed tests, but it feels like a lot more work pushing these tires on the flat or up-hill. Sure, they have some tread, and weigh a bit more, but they feel a *much* slower. Actually, even slower than the very knobbly 33mm Schwalbe X-One cyclocross tires that came with the bike.

Is this transition from road to gravel tires normal? Is is a question of feel more than absolute speed? (I would expect maybe a 2km/h average speed drop from what I have read, but it "feels" like a lot more.

I guess I really need to do some timed tests, with both tires, but it's fairly hard to create a completely controlled experiment with identical conditions (especially without a power meter).

What has your experience been?
Depends on what you count as a "gravel" tire. If they have knobs, they are probably going to be slower. If they are just large slicks, maybe, maybe not. It depends on the tire.
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Old 09-04-18, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
@Banzai

@Facanh yes I meant the all-around. I had the 40-622 model on rims 23mm wide inside and they were 41mm wide and 37mm tall. I only did a couple rides but they did not expand at all while I was using them.
40-622 shows as the Marathon now. Did they ever have a 40mm G-One All Around?
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Old 09-04-18, 07:17 AM
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Drum rolling tests are a very accurate way to compare real life rolling resistance of tires....

....on your in indoor trainer.
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Old 09-04-18, 06:30 PM
  #100  
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Drum rolling tests are a reasonable metric to compare tires in a controlled environment. Real world use is similar enough that a tire that performs well on the drum will often perform well on the road or gravel. This also applies to tires that do not perform well on the drum.

This series is helpful to get a grasp on how to apply the various testing methods to picking a tire and pressure that is good for you: https://silca.cc/blogs/journal/part-...-and-impedance

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