My E+ review
05-09-20, 05:43 AM
#602
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 689
Bikes: E+ kit, BIONX
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
7 Posts
JLV
Before I answer...
are you there to read my answers?
I had at least 2 instances in this thread that person who asked for help just gave up and desnt bother to answer.
Before I answer...
are you there to read my answers?
I had at least 2 instances in this thread that person who asked for help just gave up and desnt bother to answer.
05-11-20, 06:04 PM
#604
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Brea, Calif.
Posts: 10
Bikes: (2) EMS E1+ 1000 watt 36 volt
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
05-12-20, 02:18 PM
#605
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 689
Bikes: E+ kit, BIONX
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
7 Posts
JVL
BTW it would be nice to know your name and location.
I understand you did conversion and connected non-EPLUS battery according to my schematics.
It had been said before but once again:
Display/contr. is a master and motor electronics and batt electronics are slaves.
whan you press POWER button you initiate communication protocol called RS-485 , simply disp/contr. sends enquiry to batt electronics and next to motor electronics.
ERROR1 means no successful attempt by disp/contr. to comm with battery electronics.
your problem is faulty processing board of batt electronics. batt electronics consists of upper and bottom boards: processing /also called control/ upper and power board below.
as it was said many times in this thread: disconnecting EPLUS battery from electronics is kind of tricky if done in a hurry and by not careful person.
it takes only miliseconds to damage upper board by causing short.
boards and terminals MUST be wrap with electrical tape and Allan key wraped before touching boards with tools.
main processor on upper board rarely gets damaged and such board can be repaired
Miroslaw
BTW it would be nice to know your name and location.
I understand you did conversion and connected non-EPLUS battery according to my schematics.
It had been said before but once again:
Display/contr. is a master and motor electronics and batt electronics are slaves.
whan you press POWER button you initiate communication protocol called RS-485 , simply disp/contr. sends enquiry to batt electronics and next to motor electronics.
ERROR1 means no successful attempt by disp/contr. to comm with battery electronics.
your problem is faulty processing board of batt electronics. batt electronics consists of upper and bottom boards: processing /also called control/ upper and power board below.
as it was said many times in this thread: disconnecting EPLUS battery from electronics is kind of tricky if done in a hurry and by not careful person.
it takes only miliseconds to damage upper board by causing short.
boards and terminals MUST be wrap with electrical tape and Allan key wraped before touching boards with tools.
main processor on upper board rarely gets damaged and such board can be repaired
Miroslaw
05-13-20, 05:19 PM
#607
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Brea, Calif.
Posts: 10
Bikes: (2) EMS E1+ 1000 watt 36 volt
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
05-14-20, 05:35 PM
#609
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Brea, Calif.
Posts: 10
Bikes: (2) EMS E1+ 1000 watt 36 volt
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Jack
I have looked at many of your post regarding EMS E+ bikes and you sure do know them well. I hope you can help me and as I said I will be more than happy to compensate you for your help
05-14-20, 05:45 PM
#610
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Brea, Calif.
Posts: 10
Bikes: (2) EMS E1+ 1000 watt 36 volt
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Jack
I have looked at many of your post regarding EMS E+ bikes and you sure do know them well. I hope you can help me and as I said I will be more than happy to compensate you for your help
05-14-20, 08:06 PM
#611
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 689
Bikes: E+ kit, BIONX
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
7 Posts
Jack
there are no emails at this forum , you mean personal message??
Ok I will try to send you personal message on this forum.
look up at the top of this page for notification.
I am sure members with few messages cannot send personal messages.
Miroslaw
there are no emails at this forum , you mean personal message??
Ok I will try to send you personal message on this forum.
look up at the top of this page for notification.
I am sure members with few messages cannot send personal messages.
Miroslaw
05-14-20, 09:18 PM
#612
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Brea, Calif.
Posts: 10
Bikes: (2) EMS E1+ 1000 watt 36 volt
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
of course we can message on this site. I hope you get this message. I'm really lost on how to message on this site.
Jack
Jack
05-15-20, 09:26 AM
#613
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Brea, Calif.
Posts: 10
Bikes: (2) EMS E1+ 1000 watt 36 volt
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Sometime ago I got rid of the front wheel and NiMH battery. I moved the battery circuit boards to a protective enclosure and connected LiCoMn tool batteries to provide 36V21AH. Those batteries are charged off the bike on Makita rapid charger. When it worked, it was an amazing ride, but it was plagued by seemingly random #1(display/battery) and #2(display/motor) errors. In trying to track down possible cable or display problems, the display stopped turning on at all. I gave up.
I decided to take one more try. Fortunately, I had a 2nd top battery circuit board. That board fixed the display not turning on. I rebuilt the housing for the battery board so no connection could possibly loosen and nothing physically touching any part of the boards, except the mount screws. I replace the cables between the display, motor and battery boards with a better shielded cable.
I don't want to jinks it, but it seems to be fixed.
A couple of things unique to using batteries not charged through E+'s charge board circuit. The replacement upper charge board came from a bike that had the NiMH batteries charged normally. I showed 80% SOC and 4 bars, even though the batteries mounted were full at 41 volts. After about 8 miles, no bars even though the 21AH battery had discharged less than 25%. On subsequent rides, still no bars. Apparently, the E+ gets it's battery capacity data from the actually AH used to charge the battery. So if the battery is not charged through the battery boards the battery state of charge display doesn't work. Fortunately everything else works and a simple watt meter is a good substitute.
One other issue that may or may not prove to be a problem. In the original E+ design, the battery board always had voltage (battery connected). With my system, the battery is removed for charging and off the bike until it is next used. I seems to me the delay between the display lighting and power to the wheel is longer than I remember with the front hub battery. I have also had at least 1 start up error but unplugging and re-inserting the com cable on the display fixes that the first time.
Powell I haven't heard about that. Is it a delay after LVC or temp problem or something else?
I decided to take one more try. Fortunately, I had a 2nd top battery circuit board. That board fixed the display not turning on. I rebuilt the housing for the battery board so no connection could possibly loosen and nothing physically touching any part of the boards, except the mount screws. I replace the cables between the display, motor and battery boards with a better shielded cable.
I don't want to jinks it, but it seems to be fixed.
A couple of things unique to using batteries not charged through E+'s charge board circuit. The replacement upper charge board came from a bike that had the NiMH batteries charged normally. I showed 80% SOC and 4 bars, even though the batteries mounted were full at 41 volts. After about 8 miles, no bars even though the 21AH battery had discharged less than 25%. On subsequent rides, still no bars. Apparently, the E+ gets it's battery capacity data from the actually AH used to charge the battery. So if the battery is not charged through the battery boards the battery state of charge display doesn't work. Fortunately everything else works and a simple watt meter is a good substitute.
One other issue that may or may not prove to be a problem. In the original E+ design, the battery board always had voltage (battery connected). With my system, the battery is removed for charging and off the bike until it is next used. I seems to me the delay between the display lighting and power to the wheel is longer than I remember with the front hub battery. I have also had at least 1 start up error but unplugging and re-inserting the com cable on the display fixes that the first time.
Powell I haven't heard about that. Is it a delay after LVC or temp problem or something else?
I'm JLV and I'm in southern Ca. I'm new to the forum and I have 2 EMS E+ 1000 watt bikes. I have been following you and Powell's post. You guy really know the E+ bikes. I need some help and advice. I rebuilt the NIMH battery in one of my bikes. Boy, let me tell you that was a challenge! Probably would never have done it if I knew what I was getting into beforehand. I had to drill out the post holding the battery packs together. The post were glued together so they could not be unscrewed. Finally got all the batteries installed properly and on one of last little screws hooking the cells in series I shorted the top board. Yup, when assembled to the bike got error 1 message. Powell told me the chip was bad. You guys seem to be the Gurus of this bike! Anyway I am looking for some guidance and help from the pros. Do you know of anyone who might have the top BMS board or anyone who would be willing to fix it? Powell in one of his post stated the BMS board could be repaired. Maybe, even though I bought over worth $500 worth of Tenergy 10000 ma batteries I should convert to Lithium (I don't know the first thing about how to do it) and chuck the hub batteries. What advice can you give me on this? ANYTHING will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
JLV
05-16-20, 09:37 AM
#614
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 51
Bikes: Univega Superstrada, Serrota, Santana tandem, E plus
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
8 Posts
I converted mine to Lithium (with Powell's help) and it's my favorite ride, but it has some quirks. Charging a lithium battery using the charge boards in the front hub won't work as lithium charging is more complex and dangerous. Continuing to use NiMH is too heavy and limiting. I use Li batteries that must be mounted on an external charger (Makita), so the charge boards don't have the continuous voltage they expect. But, the consequences are manageable.....usually an error message when power is restored and the state of charge display doesn't work. Disconnect/reconnect the display ususally clears the error and a simple volt/watt meter gives SOC. Otherwise the bike performs all other functions perfectly. I'll ride and enjoy, but if a charge board, the display or the controller inside the hub breaks, I have to scrap the bike. No parts or documentation. Since I've never been able to open the hub motor I couldn't even use that: bypassing the internal controller replacing with an external one. I've opened and repaired dozens of hub motors, got all the tools but this one stumps me.
My recommendation for you. If you got a 2nd bike with a good top charge board, use it. If not, see if Rick has any. Powell understand circuit board components, maybe he'd look at your board. Have a good EE see if he can find the damage on the board. Please report any successes.
If you get a good board and all works with your new NiMH cells, use the bike. If you need more than 16-20 miles, you can connect a lithium battery in parallel. Before I got rid of the front hub, I connected 36v10.5ah lithium battery in parallel with the NiMH. The bike already has the wiring for a 2nd battery. It worked fine and more than double the range. See earlier post in this thread for details.
If you have a good board, you'd be welcome to drop in. I'm less that 2hrs south in San Diego. Good luck.
05-16-20, 10:03 AM
#615
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 51
Bikes: Univega Superstrada, Serrota, Santana tandem, E plus
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
8 Posts
Powell,
I find posting to this site very frustrating. I logged in, wrote a detailed summary of my successes and the limitations I found in converting the the E+ to a external lithium battery. When I actually "post" the site say I must log in. I log in and my work is gone, never to be found. I'll must remember to copy the post before re-logging on.
I'm riding the E+ considerably and learned to deal with the quirks of not charging Lithium batteries through the charge board. I discussed some in the post to JLV above. One I forgot to mention is regen braking issues. Since the charge boards think the SOC is always near zero, regen engages even if the batteries are full (40V). Not good. I've had the hub wheel jerk, almost lock, when regen engaged with a full battery and then I punched the throttle to go. I don't think the software can properly deal with conditions that were never anticipated. I put a switch on the brake sensor wires to prevent regen and that stops the problem. The truth is I get little benefit for regen on a single bike. Wind resistance slow me enough for my hills and my style. I've turn regen back on occasionally when the battery is down, but I'm still nervous a lock will occur. It was no fun.
I find posting to this site very frustrating. I logged in, wrote a detailed summary of my successes and the limitations I found in converting the the E+ to a external lithium battery. When I actually "post" the site say I must log in. I log in and my work is gone, never to be found. I'll must remember to copy the post before re-logging on.
I'm riding the E+ considerably and learned to deal with the quirks of not charging Lithium batteries through the charge board. I discussed some in the post to JLV above. One I forgot to mention is regen braking issues. Since the charge boards think the SOC is always near zero, regen engages even if the batteries are full (40V). Not good. I've had the hub wheel jerk, almost lock, when regen engaged with a full battery and then I punched the throttle to go. I don't think the software can properly deal with conditions that were never anticipated. I put a switch on the brake sensor wires to prevent regen and that stops the problem. The truth is I get little benefit for regen on a single bike. Wind resistance slow me enough for my hills and my style. I've turn regen back on occasionally when the battery is down, but I'm still nervous a lock will occur. It was no fun.
05-17-20, 09:31 AM
#616
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 689
Bikes: E+ kit, BIONX
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
7 Posts
Jack,
I would follow Firedog advice.
make sure your second Eplus works - powers up normally, throttle works,
next
take second Eplus battery apart , remove control/process board and use it for your project.
for repair opinion I would have to see many pictures of damaged board from many angles and close ups pictures,
it requires high quality camera /in expensive $500-plus cellphone for example/ , cheap, shoddy camera will not show details.
I would follow Firedog advice.
make sure your second Eplus works - powers up normally, throttle works,
next
take second Eplus battery apart , remove control/process board and use it for your project.
for repair opinion I would have to see many pictures of damaged board from many angles and close ups pictures,
it requires high quality camera /in expensive $500-plus cellphone for example/ , cheap, shoddy camera will not show details.
05-17-20, 09:46 PM
#618
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 96
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
regen braking issues
Goood observation. Regen braking was not supported on the E+ LiPo batteries. I'm looking into following your route with the tool batteries, and I'm glad you pointed this out.
05-19-20, 09:21 PM
#620
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 96
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
No, putting it back together. If you wanted to duplicate the tabs welded between the batteries with material of the same thickness, a very specialized welder is required. The commonly available welders are not capable. Presumably E+ used thick material because each tab must be able to carry the full load amperage of the system. Calculating the conductivity of the nickel alloy used for the tabs pretty much bears this out. Knowing E+, there was probably some overkill, but it got to the point that the investment needed just to experiment was too much.
05-23-20, 12:26 PM
#621
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 689
Bikes: E+ kit, BIONX
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
7 Posts
Wrandyr
do you still plan on replacing NMH cells?
it would be difficult task, I must guess.
I admit I didnt think about it when I was sending you my NMH cells.
so standard round cell welder would not work on rebuilding Eplus NMH pack, not enough power to weld.
ANYWAY
rebuilding original NMH battery with used cells would make little sense to me.
do you still think about Lithium conversion?
do you still plan on replacing NMH cells?
it would be difficult task, I must guess.
I admit I didnt think about it when I was sending you my NMH cells.
so standard round cell welder would not work on rebuilding Eplus NMH pack, not enough power to weld.
ANYWAY
rebuilding original NMH battery with used cells would make little sense to me.
do you still think about Lithium conversion?
05-24-20, 08:19 PM
#622
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 96
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
I was going to use your batteries to experiment with, but the whole thing seems impractical after further study. Yes, I am going to try a lithium conversion, probably with tool batteries. I was hoping to use my LiPo controller board, but it appears to be damaged. (The dreaded ERR01). I have two working hub batteries, albeit with end-of-life cells, so I have something to play with.
06-18-20, 06:48 PM
#624
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 689
Bikes: E+ kit, BIONX
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
7 Posts
[QUOTE=Firedog91902;21478402]Powell,
. One I forgot to mention is regen braking issues. Since the charge boards think the SOC is always near zero, regen engages even if the batteries are full (40V).
QUOTE
Firedog,
I am fully aware of this issue , really - upper processing board stores real SOC of battery , displayed SOC is based on Columb discharge count by main PIC processor PIC16.
since in my conversion charge is done OUTSIDE lower power board /outside EPLUS electronics/ of course PIC16 doesnt know battery is charged and still thinks and displays empty on display/contr.
As a result PIC 16 allows for regen right away.
the thing is
for my Chevy Volt cells EPLUS regen current activated by brake lever is very, very low, unless you use REGEN level 9 maybe, but who would do it right at the begining or ride?
anyway - Cycle Analyst on my EPLUS shows max. -500W returned to battery when I sqeeze break lever , so 500W divided by 43V is ONLY : 11.6 Amps. - really nothing for Chevy Volt cells.
but
I charge to max, max 90%SOC and as I said EPLUS regen current is like nothing for Chevy Volt cells.
If you use tool batteries that is completely different story.
I never noticed any jerk from EPLUS motor bigger than when battery is say 50% depleted.
jerk is exactely same at the beggining of the ride and when battery depleted.
. One I forgot to mention is regen braking issues. Since the charge boards think the SOC is always near zero, regen engages even if the batteries are full (40V).
QUOTE
Firedog,
I am fully aware of this issue , really - upper processing board stores real SOC of battery , displayed SOC is based on Columb discharge count by main PIC processor PIC16.
since in my conversion charge is done OUTSIDE lower power board /outside EPLUS electronics/ of course PIC16 doesnt know battery is charged and still thinks and displays empty on display/contr.
As a result PIC 16 allows for regen right away.
the thing is
for my Chevy Volt cells EPLUS regen current activated by brake lever is very, very low, unless you use REGEN level 9 maybe, but who would do it right at the begining or ride?
anyway - Cycle Analyst on my EPLUS shows max. -500W returned to battery when I sqeeze break lever , so 500W divided by 43V is ONLY : 11.6 Amps. - really nothing for Chevy Volt cells.
but
I charge to max, max 90%SOC and as I said EPLUS regen current is like nothing for Chevy Volt cells.
If you use tool batteries that is completely different story.
I never noticed any jerk from EPLUS motor bigger than when battery is say 50% depleted.
jerk is exactely same at the beggining of the ride and when battery depleted.
Last edited by powell; 06-18-20 at 07:00 PM.
06-18-20, 10:58 PM
#625
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 51
Bikes: Univega Superstrada, Serrota, Santana tandem, E plus
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
8 Posts
Powell,
I knew choosing negative power level setting adjust regen strength for long descents or as the manual say "to use the E+ as and exercise machine". Give me a break, I get plenty exercise just riding.
Riding in a positive power setting, regen engages when the brakes switch triggers (unless disabled) . Is there also a way to adjust regen strength during normal braking? I can find any mention in the manuals.
I knew choosing negative power level setting adjust regen strength for long descents or as the manual say "to use the E+ as and exercise machine". Give me a break, I get plenty exercise just riding.
Riding in a positive power setting, regen engages when the brakes switch triggers (unless disabled) . Is there also a way to adjust regen strength during normal braking? I can find any mention in the manuals.
Last edited by Firedog91902; 06-19-20 at 08:24 AM.