transsexuals in UK cycling
09-01-04, 06:18 AM
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This will be settled in British Courts in accordance with Brit law and custom (and maybe the EU breathing down their neck). There isn't anything we can do. We have seperate mens and womens races for a simple reason. ALlowing a man to compete violates the spirit of that, if not the letter. However, it often takes a disaster before things change; and it wouldn't surprise me if it takes a guy unfairly dominating a women's sport to bring about the neccesary reform.
09-01-04, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by late
This will be settled in British Courts in accordance with Brit law and custom (and maybe the EU breathing down their neck). There isn't anything we can do. We have seperate mens and womens races for a simple reason. ALlowing a man to compete violates the spirit of that, if not the letter. However, it often takes a disaster before things change; and it wouldn't surprise me if it takes a guy unfairly dominating a women's sport to bring about the neccesary reform.
I believe the transexual won the championship the year she (formly he) participated. Can anyone remember if there was alot of stink about it in Canada?
I believe I should clarify what I said : once a plaintiff files a suit, it is impossible to extricate yourself without a lawyer's help. The days of going to a King Solomon are over. Even simple arbritration requires a lawyer who can put forth the argument in a legally correct way rather than appealing to the Judge's sense of justice or common sense. I don't believe there is a way avoid a legal battle without lawyers with the exception of small claims court here in America once a suit has been filed. I may be wrong in the UK.
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09-01-04, 06:59 AM
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I don't think this is a troll post. A transexual-rights group mentions this on their website:
and
Links: https://www.pfc.org.uk/campaign/people/members.htm and https://www.pfc.org.uk/gr-bill/grb-lgc2.htm
But it does look like sporting bodies are exempt from the law that became law in July. You can do a google search with the terms "Gender Recognition Bill sporting bodies exemption"
Originally Posted by https://www.pfc.org.uk/gr-bill/grb-lgc2.htm
This is particularly relevant and important in the context of a case which is before a Manchester employment tribunal at the present time; namely, Claire Ashton v Philip Heaton, a secretary of Cycling Time Trials. The relevance of that is the weight that the employment tribunal placed on our proceedings in this House vis-à-vis that hearing. Just a few weeks ago, Claire Ashton requested that the tribunal postpone the further hearing of the case pending the passing of the Bill that we are considering into law. That would allow Cycling Time Trials time to consider the relationship between its rules and regulations—which it recognises will have to change—and the new law. Claire Ashton
Originally Posted by https://www.pfc.org.uk/campaign/people/members.htm
CA is 51 years old and owns and drives a black cab for a living in a large market town. Most of her work is based around contracts for wheelchair users and adults with special needs for the local county council. Some years ago she was a police officer but was forced to retire early when her transsexuality became known to senior officers. She was fortunate in that all of her family supported her through those difficult times and she was able to keep her housing. Unwilling to face rejection in the employment market place, the easier option was taken and she became self employed running her taxi.
About two years ago she began cycling, riding with a local touring club and then onto long distance events. A few months ago she began to ride in time trials but ran into difficulties when Cycling Time Trials, the national regulatory body, were told of her past history. They then effectively banned her from entering further women's events unless she submitted to a humiliating medical examination. She is currently in the early stages of taking legal action to confront the discrimination she has suffered. This, she feels, would not be necessary once legislation is put in place from Parliament.
About two years ago she began cycling, riding with a local touring club and then onto long distance events. A few months ago she began to ride in time trials but ran into difficulties when Cycling Time Trials, the national regulatory body, were told of her past history. They then effectively banned her from entering further women's events unless she submitted to a humiliating medical examination. She is currently in the early stages of taking legal action to confront the discrimination she has suffered. This, she feels, would not be necessary once legislation is put in place from Parliament.
But it does look like sporting bodies are exempt from the law that became law in July. You can do a google search with the terms "Gender Recognition Bill sporting bodies exemption"
Last edited by Daily Commute; 09-01-04 at 07:27 AM.
09-01-04, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin
We need to rid our sport of this individual.
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09-02-04, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by NZLcyclist
membership agreements here (or race agreements) specify that a competitor cannot lay charges against the organisers for any reason. Full Stop. End of story.
Thank you for this postive post. However, I suspect that various bits of legislation on Human Rights, Sexual Discrimination etc might well be viewed by a UK court as overuling the membership rules.
The "out of court settlement" our governing body came to last week was covered by a "gagging" order so I, not being party to it, don't have any details of it. I think that under UK law this means I, and many others no longer need to keep quiet about the potential costs to our sport.
Last edited by Colin; 09-02-04 at 02:31 PM.
09-02-04, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin
Thank you for this postive post. However, I suspect that various bits of legislation on Human Rights, Sexual Discrimination etc might well be viewed by a UK court as overuling the membership rules.
Last edited by Daily Commute; 09-02-04 at 11:55 AM.
09-02-04, 08:18 AM
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I am not a lawyer, so I can only tell you what I might do in your place.
I would definitely try to avoid litigation as is is unproductive and expensive.
Since this is a time trial, everyone is racing the clock anyway, not each each other. You could just allow this person to register as a female and be done with it. This would be my first choice.
My second choice would be to create a transgender class containing (m/f, and f/m) entrants. This is mostly an administrative matter and shouldn't affect the racing or the awards too much. It would be very much like what you currently do for age groups.
There is also a third choice. You could eliminate classes altogether and report the results without regard to gender. You may want to keep age groups, or not. This would make it a completely "open" event, at least in terms of formalities.
I don't really see how this person is "damaging the sport" (whatever that is). She is asking for an administrative accomodation you are unwilling to make, and is being stubborn about it. Being equally stubborn won't solve your problem. If you don't resist as much, she won't have so much to fight about.
FWIW
Dan
I would definitely try to avoid litigation as is is unproductive and expensive.
Since this is a time trial, everyone is racing the clock anyway, not each each other. You could just allow this person to register as a female and be done with it. This would be my first choice.
My second choice would be to create a transgender class containing (m/f, and f/m) entrants. This is mostly an administrative matter and shouldn't affect the racing or the awards too much. It would be very much like what you currently do for age groups.
There is also a third choice. You could eliminate classes altogether and report the results without regard to gender. You may want to keep age groups, or not. This would make it a completely "open" event, at least in terms of formalities.
I don't really see how this person is "damaging the sport" (whatever that is). She is asking for an administrative accomodation you are unwilling to make, and is being stubborn about it. Being equally stubborn won't solve your problem. If you don't resist as much, she won't have so much to fight about.
FWIW
Dan
Last edited by DanFromDetroit; 09-02-04 at 08:30 AM.
09-02-04, 09:45 AM
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Could you elaborate on how this trany is damaging our sport if she is not dominating the born women? Perhaps your fighting her (which does appear biggoted) is what will really damage our sport.
09-02-04, 09:47 AM
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Does he/she still have a penis? If so, it's a man and therefore should not be competing with women unless it is a coed competitiion.
09-02-04, 09:51 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by Stor Mand
Does he/she still have a penis? If so, it's a man and therefore should not be competing with women unless it is a coed competitiion.
If you get your penis blown off by a land mine, are you a woman?
09-02-04, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Stor Mand
Does he/she still have a penis? If so, it's a man and therefore should not be competing with women unless it is a coed competitiion.
09-02-04, 09:55 AM
#37
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Originally Posted by temp1
I would go further and say its the XY chromasome combo that should be the final word in determining maleness.
09-02-04, 10:09 AM
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Let's say that I think I am a dog and decide to get an operation to have doggy ears, nose, tail and fur added to me .. am I a dog or just a crazy person?
Yes, I agree.
Totally different situation and I think you know that.
Originally Posted by temp1
I would go further and say its the XY chromasome combo that should be the final word in determining maleness.
Originally Posted by FXjohn
If you get your penis blown off by a land mine, are you a woman?
09-02-04, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by cbhungry
I believe the transexual won the championship the year she (formly he) participated. Can anyone remember if there was alot of stink about it in Canada?
.
.
All that said. 2 seasons of racing and nothing stopping her in the 3rd. There has been no legal battle that has won or any protest heard
09-02-04, 10:01 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by Colin
The "out of court settlement" our governing body came to last week was covered by a "gagging" order so I, not being party to it, don't have any details of it. I think that under UK law this means I, and many others no longer need to keep quiet about the potential costs to our sport.
Do what you have been advised already... get some independent, British legal advice of your own, and don't discuss it further here until you do.
09-03-04, 08:45 AM
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"She" has raced and nobody wants to stop "her". Whether "she" will race next season is debateable considering how public opinion has turned against "her" this last week. Maybe "she" will move on to another sport having scrutinised their rules and balance sheets to decide on an easy target.
Last edited by Colin; 09-03-04 at 08:50 AM.
09-03-04, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin
"She" has raced and noboby wants to stop "her". Whether "she" will race next season is debateable considering how public opinion has turned against "her" this last week. Maybe "she" will move on to another sport having scrutinised their rules and balance sheets to decide on an easy target.
09-03-04, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Stor Mand
Curious on why the she words are in quotes? Also, is it a guy with boobs and hormone shots or has he had his "man parts" tucked in?
09-03-04, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by don d.
Would definitely eliminate the risk of torsion of the testicle. 
09-03-04, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by temp1
I would go further and say its the XY chromasome combo that should be the final word in determining maleness.
unless you have complete androgen insensitivity (xy chromosome) wich are men who have no testosterone receptors so these men develop in every way like women except for invagniated testicles. Their testosterone cannot act in any way, shape or form as testosterone, instead it produces very striking females since the extra testosterone cross reacts with estrogen receptors and produce very bodacious females....a famous actress has this. These men should be allowed to participate as women since they have no functional testosterone and have no advantages there. (In fact their invaginated testicles have been removed by puberty age to avoid testicular carcinoma.)
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09-03-04, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cbhungry
unless you have complete androgen insensitivity (xy chromosome) wich are men who have no testosterone receptors so these men develop in every way like women except for invagniated testicles. Their testosterone cannot act in any way, shape or form as testosterone, instead it produces very striking females since the extra testosterone cross reacts with estrogen receptors and produce very bodacious females....a famous actress has this. These men should be allowed to participate as women since they have no functional testosterone and have no advantages there. (In fact their invaginated testicles have been removed by puberty age to avoid testicular carcinoma.)
Just when you think something in life is black and white...
BTW you always have the most fascinating posts.
09-05-04, 05:58 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by cbhungry
unless you have complete androgen insensitivity (xy chromosome) wich are men who have no testosterone receptors so these men develop in every way like women except for invagniated testicles. Their testosterone cannot act in any way, shape or form as testosterone, instead it produces very striking females since the extra testosterone cross reacts with estrogen receptors and produce very bodacious females....a famous actress has this. These men should be allowed to participate as women since they have no functional testosterone and have no advantages there. (In fact their invaginated testicles have been removed by puberty age to avoid testicular carcinoma.)
anyway, on topic:
i think that the reason that men and women are seperated in atheltic competition is that in 99.99% of athletic activities, men are better. lets look at it this way, what happens when you take steriods? I'm oversimplifying, but it causes you to produce testosterone, which men naturally have more of. so in effect, this trans that goes from male to female has been "doping" with testosterone since birth, and therefore has un unfair advantage in the sport.
09-05-04, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Phatman
alright...which actress? i'm really curious.
anyway, on topic:
i think that the reason that men and women are seperated in atheltic competition is that in 99.99% of athletic activities, men are better. lets look at it this way, what happens when you take steriods? I'm oversimplifying, but it causes you to produce testosterone, which men naturally have more of. so in effect, this trans that goes from male to female has been "doping" with testosterone since birth, and therefore has un unfair advantage in the sport.
anyway, on topic:
i think that the reason that men and women are seperated in atheltic competition is that in 99.99% of athletic activities, men are better. lets look at it this way, what happens when you take steriods? I'm oversimplifying, but it causes you to produce testosterone, which men naturally have more of. so in effect, this trans that goes from male to female has been "doping" with testosterone since birth, and therefore has un unfair advantage in the sport.
Joe