Ranger Dan

I'm not new to touring, but due to work commitments I haven't gone on any long trips for 20 years. I want to return to touring (retirement rapidly approaching), but my knowledge and touring bike are dated. I made some long rides on what in retrospect was a junker bike, then in 1983 I bought a Trek 720, which was sooo much nicer than the junker. I still have the Trek (in good condition), but I can afford an upgrade if I "need" to make one.

I"m not sure where the 720 ranks in comparison to modern bikes. My question is, how big of a step up do I need to make to see a major improvement? If I were to buy, say, a Bruce Gordon RR, am I going to be saying "whoa, this is so much better than that Trek," or will I be wondering why I spent all that money? Other suggestions?

Additional info: I'll be camping, but I was never one to take any extra baggage -- I'm not going to be carrying 60 lbs. of gear around (hopefully less than 1/2 of that). My riding style has mellowed with age (no more passing cars on long downhills), but I still try to ride hard (for an old guy). Prior major trips: Oregon to Newfoundland, NZ, Australia, SE Asia, UK.

jonsam

Sounds like a cool bike. Those older Treks are great looking bikes. My guess is that it will work just fine. Is there anything about it in particular that concerns you? The 720 is a touring model with cantilever brakes, correct?

bugly64

What a silly question. Of course, you need a new bike.

staehpj1

New bikes are nice and a joy to have. Pride of ownership is a big deal for some and if it makes you happy that is a good thing.

That said the bike will not make a huge difference in what the actual touring experience is like unless the old bike was unsuitable in some basic way. The key items are:

1. Proper fit.
2. Suitable gearing.
3. Reasonable durability (mostly the wheels).
4. A design reasonably suitable to the task.

Once those basic needs are met the actual touring experience is the same whether on a $5000 custom or a $599 Windsor Touring. The Randonee, LHT, Fuji Touring, and Windsor Touring among others are all good enough that spending more will not change the actual tour much. I would further add that upgrading components will make minimal difference unless you are just into the whole gear head thing.

The bottom line is that it really just isn't about the bike.

Ranger Dan

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, the 720 is a touring model with cantilever brakes.

I started out on a low end Nishiki and rode it over 15,000 miles before I upgraded to the Trek. That was a huge step up -- the Trek was so much nicer to ride. I wish I had upgraded sooner, but I didn't know what I was missing. The Trek fits me, has been durable and I don't have any complaints about it. But I'm wondering if there is something I could upgrade to that would be as large an improvement as I experienced when going from the Nishiki to the Trek.

LeeG

I don't see any reason that you NEED a new bike. I seriously doubt a new bike would provide the perception of improvment as much as it would be DIFFERENT. Go ahead,,try out a range of $1000-$3000 bikes.

personally I'd just get new tires and put air in them.

cyccommute 

Yes, you could just use the Trek. However bikes have changed a lot since your Trek was built. The frames, and the materials that make the frames, have improved over the 26 years since your bike was made. They aren't huge improvements, however, but enough to consider replacement.

The big difference come in the parts that hang on the frames. Shifting has vastly improved over the last 26 years. Where the old shifters would clatter and clunk and require finesse to make them work, the new ones are smooth, quiet and very responsive. Click and the bike shifts compared to the old 'move the lever, move it a little more, move it a little more, move it back, etc' routine we used to use.

Maintenance is easier on new bikes. Better seals on the bearings, easier installation of the parts, fewer tools needed to remove and replace the parts, etc. are all huge advancements. Threadless headsets, for example, require a 5 mm allen wrench to adjust. No need for the two wrench twostep you used to use for headset adjustment. Want a longer stem with more...or less...rise, unbolt the face plate, unbolt the stem, put the new stem on and tighten everything up. No need to rewrap the bars and figure out the puzzle of how the bars come through the gooseneck. Threadless headsets have done for bicycling what PVC pipe did for plumbing...any idiot can do it

Cranks and external bottom brackets have done the same as threadless headsets. Simple, easy and can be taken apart with a single allen wrench.

Almost all this stuff can be done to your Trek (the headset is problematic since 1" threadless touring forks are rare) but will likely cost more then a new bike. It has, after all, been 26 years since you bought a new touring bike. Put a crowbar in your wallet and buy a new one...today! You've squeezed all the snot out of Lincoln's nose...as have many of us penny pinching tourist...and if you don't buy a new touring bike today, they're gonna quit making 'em

TheBrick

Are you mechanical? I have had several bikes that have felt really horrible but a day completely stripping the bike down, stripping the hubs down (checking bearing wear), headset, b.b replacing the cables, full re-grease maybe a new chain and cassette if needed and the difference was outstanding, like riding a new bike again. It's a full days work but well worth it.

A full service can make such a difference you might find that gives you the transformation you are looking for.

rwp

If the frame is crack and dent free, it's still perfectly viable as a tourer. However, I agree with cyccommute that older components really suffer in comparison with new stuff. I've upgraded a '80 Trek 614 with mid '90s stuff and the results is wonderful. If you like wrenching and have the tools, talent and time then go for it. Otherwise, I'll be more than happy to volunteer and take that old bike off your hands.

In case you didn't know, 720 Trek frames are sought after by restorers/collectors.

surreal

The main question i have is, what's the gearing on this old 720? Do you think it's got a gear low enough to carry 30+ pounds of gear, and your weight, up a long climb, given that your legs are 26 years the worse for wear? If not, you might just need to address that. With the old rear spacing and narrow chainstays, the mtb-derived 3x9 drivetrains favored by many of today's tourists won't fit. But, there are always options out there for dropping the gearing, and really, most of us will never have to use the 22tx34t gear ratio. It's faster to walk and push.

However, if you have money to burn and you like new, shiny, whimsical gear, then grab something new. However, don't get the BG if the fellow above's treatise on threadless steerers has tickled your fancy; BG uses threaded steerers still. I'd say your best bet is, tune up the trek, do some soul-searching, *and* some test-riding, before you make up your mind. Much of it is a matter of perception. Some folks get a thrill out of saving some ca$h and getting the most out of an old steed. They are likely to say there's no big difference. Others love new technology and hott shhh on wheels; they would claim that the advances made in frames and components are worth every penny.

I know this has become a long post, and i'm sorry, but here's what a new touring bike has to offer over an old one:
-the new "standards" (130mm or 135mm rear spacing, 1.125" headtube) will make it much easier for you to replace/upgrade parts with awesome new replacements. That being said, you can still get 1" threaded headsets from chis king, 120 or 126mm freewheel-compat hubs from phil wood, and 1" threaded stems from nitto. Also, there are threaded stems with a modern 4bolt faceplate, making stem swappage almost as easy as the fellow had described above for threadless ones. And, to be fair, you can get a few inches of "rise" on a threaded stem just by loosening the allen, yanking the thing up, and retightening. Which is cheaper and easier than swapping stems. Many folks will point out that 1" steerers and freewheel hubs (versus cassette hubs) have some design flaws that will eventually lead to failure, but that'll be after some serious mileage, and you'd have to tour from now til you've died of old age to replace enough rear hubs and headsets to equal the price of a BGR&R. Essentially, though, if you stick with 120mm freewheel hubs and 1" threaded headsets, you're stuck with only the ultra low-end and the high-end. You can't get the middle-of-the-road shhh, which abounds for the modern standards. (I have a tange levin 1" threaded headset, cost $20new, and it rocks. Not sealed, though.)
-modern frames and components weigh a heckuva lot less than the old ones. Seriously. So, you can build something very light and reasonably strong, or you can build something heavy and VERY strong, or whatever you want, if ya have the budget.
-like some have mentioned already, modern shifting is more "trick". While i personally hate brifters, many ppl love them and they've changed their views on cycling. You will still have to get all finicky with front shifting on a triple crank; most eery modern road shifter has some sort of "trim" function for keeping the chain off the derailer for most gear combos, but it isn't quite so simple as 1 "click" and you're shifted, in all cases. Still, it's way more fun than downtube shifters. Rear indexing is basically perfect on a well-tuned machine.

I hope this helps. In all seriousness, you're considering a buy, so don't feel bad about testriding some bikes. Testriding a bike isn't wasting any salesperson's time; i worked in a shop, and if we're not showing you bikes, we're watching videos and sweeping the workshop. Get in there and ride some of the modern stuff. For the record, if you get a BG complete bike, the components are pretty ho-hum anyway. Rather than read my long-winded posts, go out and get on a bike. Riding is believing, my brother.

HTH,
-rob

IceNine

If you still have the stock wheels on the Trek, that might be a place to upgrade as the Maillard Helicomatic hubs had a tendency to break spokes and wear out cones and were hard to service and find replacement parts. With a steel frame you should not have any problem inserting a 130mm wheel, or cold setting the frame permanently if you are so inclined to do so.

The only other concern I'd have is the Reynolds 531C frame is a little lighter/less robust than ideal for touring, but if the rider + gear weight are kept relatively low and supported with quality wheels and wide tires and good riding technique, that shouldn't be a problem.

The Smokester

The one fundamental thing I would be concerned about is the wheels. Many modern touring bikes have 135mm dropouts in the rear which allows little to no dishing of the wheel and thus a much stronger rear wheel and the use of mountain bike hubs and gearing.

Gordon P

I would use the Trek while you are getting back into touring and upgrade as needed. Then when you retire splurge on the touring bike that you need and go on a big cycling adventure!

Ranger Dan

Overall, the bike is still in good shape. No dents or cracks in the frame. For better or worse, any work that has been done on the bike has been done by me, and I've tried to keep it in good repair.

The gearing is 13/14/17/20/24/28 with 20/45/50, which I believe gives about a 19 to 104" range. I've heard bad things about the Mailard Helicomatic hubs, but I've never had any problems so I never replaced the hubs. I rebuilt the rear wheel years ago with a Wolber Super Champion rim. The front rim is by Rigida -- original equipment, I think. Suntour ARX front derailleur, Huret for the rear. Sugino AT crankset. Stronglight Spidel headset. Cinelli handlebars & stem.

As some others here have noted, finding parts to repair the bike can be difficult. I had some problems with the bottom bracket last summer and ended up putting in a new sealed unit -- the local bike shops couldn't find/order parts to repair the original equipment. So I have some concerns in that department.

surreal

Just got back to the thread. Your gear range should be fine for most any tour you'd undertake. I didn't know you had one of those maillard hubs; bad break. Still, you can always upgrade stuff as needed. With the 720, you know the frame fits, and you're saving a heap of cash over a BG even if you replace half the components. Still i wouldn't "cold-set" a 531 frame to 10mm over original spacing. Yes, it can be done, but the changes may result in "wonky" handling. 126mm to 130mm? Yeah, i might do that. But, i think i'd rather get a wicked-expensive rear hub than risk a 10mm respacing.

hth,
-rob

ps- I'd say, keep the 720

CardiacKid

THe Trek 720 is still considered one of the best mass produced touring frames ever made. I doubt you will notice much of a difference if you get a new frame.

waldowales

Of course you need a new bike! You always need a new bike! Use your imagination to determine why. That's what I do.

CCrew

Exactly. I was looking at all the posts saying "get a new bike" before I saw this one. The 720 is one of the best touring bikes Trek ever made. Only thing that gave it a bad name was when they dropped it and came back with a hybrid with the same model.

Keep it and upgrade pieces if necessary - it's worth it.

-Roger

Michel Gagnon

You could replace the bike, but I don't think you need to, unless there are problems with the bike or the fit. And yes, there have been improvement in 26 years, but the question is: are they worthed for you?

Main improvements, and what you can do with them

1. Frame rigidity. Modern frames tend to be more rigid than older ones. That's great if you want to stand on the pedals with a fully loaded bike: something you can't hardly do on your bike, but that's quite feasible on a modern LHT or 520, for instance. On the other hand, a more rigid frame means that potholes will feel harder than before.
In a nutshell, unless you want to tour with the kitchen sink, you have a great frame. If you want, get a pair of stiff racks such as the Tubus and you will do great improvements in terms of bike handling when loaded.

2. Shifting. Almost gone are downtube shifters and friction shifting. Quite frankly, I prefer bar-end shifters, especially on a bumpy road with a child in tow, but I don't mind non-indexed shifting, as long as it's not the old-style friction shifting. If you still have those old shifters that tend to slide and need to be screwed in tighter once in a while, an inexpensive upgrade would be to replace those by Suntour retrofriction shifters (vintage parts) or by Shimano bar-end (or downtube) 8 or 9 speed shifters. And use them in friction mode; that will solve all compatibility problems.

On the other hand, if you insist on STI (integrated brakes and shifters), you will end up replacing almost everything because of compatibility issues; then it's better to replace the bike. Bear in mind that STI doesn't bring any real benefit for touring and could be a problem if it breaks on the road.

3. Derailleurs. If your derailleurs don't seem to stay adjusted, that limit screws don't seem to do their job, it might be a good idea to get new ones. I once replaced the rear derailleur on a then 25 year old bike for about 25 $ and shifting improved.

4. Rear wheel.
I would suggest you replace it at some point. I don't know if the Maillard breaks with or without warning, but on the road, I know I prefer a modern wheel with a cassette: stronger wheel (see here and much easier wheel repair on the road.
Now you have two or three options.
1. Visit an inner city shop, one that sells used bikes or that repairs old bikes and get a first-generation cassette wheel. You might be able to find a 7-speed wheel with 126-mm OLD (wheel with between dropouts), a 7-speed with 130 mm OLD (the old touring or mountain bike standard) or a modern 8/9-speed hub with 130 mm OLD.
Spreading your frame from 126 to 130 mm is not difficult and won't break your steel frame (unless there is a crack you didn't see before) and won't change its handling.
And in terms of gearing, your current derailleur, shifters and crankset will handle an 8 or 9 speed rear wheel without problems as long as you get a 9 speed cassette (obviously) and a narrower 9-speed chain.

All in all, a new rear wheel could cost you 100-200 $, plus about 60-80 $ for the cassette and chain.

surreal

Michel,

It's very possible that the bike in question has 120mm spacing, as early 6speeds did. Of course, many of you seem more familiar with the old 720 than i am, but every Helicomatic i'd ever seen was on aged peugeots with 120mm spacing. You can cold set a full 10mm on a 531 bike, and it won't *break* your frame, but it won't be the same. It'll be more noodley-- which is to say, it'll flex more and behave differently under torque. If i had an awesome old tour bike that i'd had since new, i'd get a new hub with the proper spacing, rather than risk noodliness.

i normally don't go recommending phil wood to ppl, as it can be expensive, but we're talking about a guy who was considering a BG R&R. We're also talking about freewheel hubs, and a 36h example in either 120mm or 126mm spacing goes for$160.50. Who knows what some imp at a stolen bikes & parts emporium will charge for a used n gruesome part. I know that the villains at VIA bikes would want 5 pounds of man-flesh. To save $100, we're gonne respace this old frame? Doesn't seem worthwhile to me.

-rob

Ranger Dan

I measured the distance between the frame dropouts: 128 mm. I was too lazy to pull the freewheel off the wheel, but I assume it's a 126 mm hub.

I've been doing some looking around the net and, of course, reading the comments here. It seems that the 720 frame is worth keeping, so I'm willing to put some money into components. Price isn't a big consideration, but I don't want to waste money. So if the consensus is that I need a Phil Wood rear hub, I can do that. What would be a good modern rim to go with it? Do I need to replace the Maillard front hub, too?

My bike has down tube friction shifters. Somewhere along the line I had a bike with bar end shifters and didn't particularly like them, but I think they were an early version, and weren't the indexed shifters of today. Anyway, I'm used to the down tube shifters, so they're not a high priority item on the upgrade list for me.

I'm thinking I could use a new rear derailleur, chain and freewheel (or cassette) -- it just doesn't shift like it used to, even after cleaning everything up last fall, readjusting things this spring, etc. My knowledge is still rather dated, so I'd appreciate any further equipment suggestions.


A friend I used to ride with had a Mercian that I thought was pretty cool. I suppose I could always fall back to the position of, when unable to choose between A and B, to pick both; i.e., fix the 720 and get a new bike.

Thanks everyone for the help.

Michel Gagnon

I assumed it has 126 mm spacing because my old Vélo Sport Alpin had 126 mm spacing. It was a 1981 bike that came with a 6-speed freewheel (regular spacing, not Ultra). I replaced the 6-speed freewheel with a 7-speed freewheel fairly soon in its life.

Fairly recently, I respaced the bike to 135 mm because my original 7-speed wheel broke and I had a couple of spare 9-speed hubs. Overall, I think it changed the bike in that it became less "noodlely", but also a bit less comfortable. And I cannot garantee that the effects would be similar on a Trek 720. So I don't think I would recommend such a spread to anyone, unless it is on a bike used to run errands or unless one is ready to scrap the bike if the results aren't satisfactory. On the other hand, widening by 2 or 4 mm should not change the behaviour of the bike.


Regarding width: I checked the catalog on the Vintage Trek website. They don't mention the width, so I suggest the original poster removes his rear wheel and carefully measures how wide between dropouts (inside width).

But I saw another pitfall: the bike came with 27" wheels. 27" tires are not obsolete, but they are harder to find that 700c tires (the current road standard). Since the radius of a 700c wheel is only 4 mm smaller than that of a 27" wheel, it is fairly easy to replace 27" wheels with 700c wheels providing brake shoes can be lowered by 4 mm.

If I were to replace the rear wheel, I would go for 700c, since I find no point in paying for a "new" 27" wheel. And to simplify parts management, I would much prefer to tour with 2 wheels of the same size, so I would also replace the 27" front wheel with a 700c one.

Ranger Dan

The bike has Dia Compe Grand Compe cantilever brakes. Just looking, I don't see how I could lower the shoes 4mm. Is it possible?

mtnroads

Why not keep the bike as-is for memories/day rides and by a newer one with all the newer technology for touring? You're undoubtedly going to dump $500 or more into that bike to upgrade it and there are several nice touring bikes available for around $1000. I really like my Novara Randonee but there is also the Surly LHT, Trek 520, Jamis Aurora, etc. At least take few out for a test ride and see what you think.

Michel Gagnon

It is possible on SOME bkes, but not all.

I think I would then agree with Mntroads.
Do a few 2-day tours close to home to see if you enjoy touring. And if you do, seriously consider a new bike, or at least go shopping to see what are your options. Between spending 250-500 $ on your current bike, depending on what you want to upgrade – and add an extra 150 - 350 $ if you want indexed shifting –, you may suddenly find that an Aurora or an LHT would be an attractive option.

Then either keep the old bike for errands, or equip it with lightweight tires for fast rides (it's not a racing bike, but lightweight tires will do wonders), or sell it used to pay for part of your new bike.