3speed

You can build a wheel on the bike, and Easily achieve .001" tolerance axially and radially? If you really can do that, you should probably start putting in resumes with pro teams as a wrench guy.

This is keeping in mind of course that time is generally considered when saying you can do something easily. Otherwise I can easily walk across the U.S. Walking takes no effort at all. It'll just take me a year...

miamijim

It actually fairly easy and doesnt take much more time than using a stand. I much prefer using a stand and other proper tools.

ColonelJLloyd 

Because not all of the wheels I build have the same OLD.

bobotech

The rear is spaced to 126mm. All the rear wheels I build are 126 to 135mm. So I just spread the triangle to fit the wheel in there. The pressure holds them in place quite nicely. I cut the bridges to help in the spreading. The front fork is 100mm so no real issue there.

I'm not saying that I would not mind having a real Park stand, but if you are on a budget, there really isn't anything that can't be done on my stand that could be done with a 100 dollar or more stand with close to equal precision.

Someday when I get some more money, I will treat myself to a Park stand but for now, I"m perfectly happy with my stand. I just think that people starting out in wheel building think you have to spend a lot of money to get accurate wheels when in reality you don't.

jimmuller 

The most important things to have when truing a wheel are patience and sensitivity to the spokes. You need a sense of how spokes affect each other and how they twist. You need a sense of when to stop and when to move to another part of the wheel.

Without these things all the tools and stands and measuring devices on the world won't help you build a better wheel.

But the tools make it easier and faster.

bobotech

And one other key that really helped me build wheels, when you adjust spokes, they affect the wheel in a wave fashion, not a direct push/pull manner. What I mean is that if you turn a single spoke one half turn, it will move that portion of the rim in or out respectively but it might push/pull the rim in opposite directions much less a spoke or two length away. Moving a single spoke just doesn't affect the wheel in one spot. i will hold the rim near the spokes I'm adjusting and I can feel the rim moving as I turn spokes 2 or 3 spokes away.

Grand Bois

You really think that the $450 Hozan is the cheapest decent truing stand?

Not helpful.

furballi

Turn the bike upside down. Adjust the handlebar and/or saddle as needed to achieve stability with the level ground.

The digital caliper is used for dishing...measure from the frame to each side of the rim (hint: measure near the rim's outer edge). Accuracy is limited to about +/-0.005" because one cannot secure the wheel to the bike at the exact same location each time the wheel is removed for stress-relieving. You can also use a 6" machinist's steel ruler with 100THS resolution. Next, center the brake and use the brake pads initially to maintain lateral run-out of +/-0.050".

Dial indicator is mounted to a 3 lbs steel plate with a vertical 3/8" steel pole. There's a ball-joint that slides into the steel pole and is secured by a thumb screw. Attach the dial indicator to the ball-joint using nut/bolt. Aim the dial indicator toward the center of the hub when measuring the rim's vertical run-out. Work around the rim till the vertical run-out is better than +/-0.005" while maintaining lateral run-out of +/-0.050".

Gradually close down the lateral run-out to +/-0.010" while maintaining the same or better vertical run-out. Be sure to stress-relieve the spokes along the way. Now position the dial indicator against one side of the rim to trim lateral run-out to +/-0.005" or better. Use the digital caliper to confirm that the wheel is still centered on the frame. Take the wheel out of the bike for additional stress relieve. Repeat until the wheel is centered and lateral run-out is better than +/-0.005". There is no need to recheck the vertical run-out.

It is possible to confirm dishing by flipping the wheel to confirm that the wheel is centered to the frame.

furballi

Some of the best and sharpest people are self-employed! Just because you lack the know-how doesn't mean that it cannot be done. Granted the quoted tolerances are limited to two reference surfaces, but still easily achievable with the right equipments.

furballi

If adjusting one spoke 1/2 turn will drastically affect the whole rim, then there's a good chance that you're working with a weak rim, and the spoke tension is already at the upper limit of that rim. I can turn a group of adjacent four spokes 1/4 of a turn and only move a Deep-V rim by about 0.005" laterally.

3speed

I didn't say it can't be done. I just said that if you can Easily do it, then you're one of the best wrenches ever and you may as well make good money doing it and travel the world with a pro team. That would be a pretty sweet gig.

bobotech

I was giving an example. And I don't mean the entire whole rim is altered. Its just physics at play. When you pull one spoke a tiny bit, something else has to give and that happens in a very slight wave. Also you can feel the rim moving when you turn nipples if you lightly hold the rim an inch or so away from the nipple that you are turning. The smaller the increment that you twist the nipple, the much less the rest of the rim will be affected. When I'm tweaking nipples by moving them barely a 1/16th or less of a turn, then you really can't feel much else happening but when you are turning spokes 1/2 turn or more early on, you can easily feel what is happening on other parts of the rim nearby.

Lenton58 

furballi wrote:Thanks very much for the details. I have a question: dial indicators commonly have a screw-in pin that contacts a surface to deflect the needle mechanism. So, I have to infer that your dial gauge has a horizontal accessory that contacts the outer edge of both sides of the rim. ???? Yes?

furballi

I have a Mitutoyo gauge similar to the cheap HF unit (HF tool is fine for this application). The screw-in pin is ~0.1" in radius. I only use the dial indicator to check the left side of the rim (axially and radially). Stick with one side of the rim (R or L) to avoid compounding error caused by manufacturing discrepancies. Higher end Velocity and Mavic rims are quite true. I've built quite a few Velocity aero rims (non-machined sidewall...NMSW) with +/-0.001" tolerances. I only need to touch up the pinned joint on each side with a very fine file to achieve silky smooth braking surfaces. The Sun CR-18 rim is cheap and reasonably strong, but QC is rather sloppy. I've had to return a few rims due to poor dimensional tolerances.

If the left side of the rim has a big hop at the pinned/welded joint, then I check the right side. Just go with the side that has the least amount of vertical hop.

I'm not a big fan of MSW rims with wear indicator grooves. These rims wear out faster than their equivalent NMSW rims.

https://www.zorotools.com/g/00061110/k-G3052551?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&kw={keyword**&g clid=CIjU8vvVz7UCFU1yQgodYnUAZQ

https://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-...cator-623.html

furballi

Having a dial indicator with 0.001" resolution will allow you to quickly see what is happening with each tweak of the spoke. Quality Deep-Vs can handle very high spoke tension and are much easier to build than conventional boxed rims. I can work faster and more accurately with a dial indicator/bike frame than a Park TS-2 stand alone.

jimmuller 

This seems to have turned into a nice discussion on wheel truing. That's usually good for everyone.

When you tighten one spoke you actually do three things to the rim. The obvious two are that you pull it over to that side and you pull it inward. The third thing is that it changes the balance between leading and trailing spokes. If you tighten a leading spoke it loosens all the other leading spokes and tightens all the trailing spokes. Granted it isn't a big effect but it can be cumulative. The larger the flange and the fewer spokes in the wheel the bigger the effect.

You can lessen the unwanted effects by working with quartets of spokes or with pairs if you choose them right. For example, to pull the rim to one side without affecting hop you can tighten a spoke to that side and loosen an adjacent spoke to the other side. But which adjacent spoke? If you tighten a trailing spoke, loosen the adjacent spoke that is also trailing. Otherwise you end up torquing the hub in the wheel so that some other problem area mysteriously becomes worse.

To pull the rim inward without affecting is lateral position, tighten adjacent spokes but chose one trailing and one leading. That way however you change the torque on the hub you counteract with the other spoke. Understand that pulling the rim inward can have the effect of making it bulge outward in areas away from that spoke. So when trying to correct hop look not just for simple too-far-in or too-far-out sections but also for patterns. For example, an out-in-out may indicate that the in section is too tight. Try to fix those kind of patterns first.

It is most satisfying to start with a wheel where several areas seem to be out, make one or two small tweaks, and discover that as if by magic the entire wheel is suddenly straight again. And equally frustrating to make one small change in error, for example tightening a spoke when you meant to loosen it, and then discover the the whole wheel seems to have become a mess.

Poguemahone

Jeez, is it that much now? I bought mine years back new for 150$ because I couldn't afford a Var Atomic (which was 400$ then and must be about 1200 now). The Hozan is a beast, and by far the best stand I've ever used (this includes the various Parks), but I agree with many of the other posters... you can build perfectly good wheels easily without a stand. Like Jim, I really prefer a good, task specific tool, but there's always a work-around.

furballi

A boxed rim will often go into "distortion" mode once the average spoke tension around the wheel has exceeded optimum. At this point, back-off all spokes by 1/4 to 1/3 of a turn and recheck for roundness. Good example of this behavior is the Mavic Open Sport rim.

robatsu

I've been sifting through the talk about whether or not one can true a wheel to +/- .001 with or without a pro truing stand and other tools.

I dunno the answer to that. But the more relevant question is, IMO, really, is it possible to true a wheel using paleo tools such as frame/zip ties, build/true a wheel to the extent that a discriminating/demanding rider couldn't tell the difference between it and a wheel built with all the surgical grade tools in terms of both immediate function and long term reliability?

My opinion, having a fair amount of experience both w/the paleo and surgical grade tools, is that I can build a wheel using either method such that an end user couldn't reliably detect by which method the wheel was built. Yes, I could do this a bit faster w/the purposed tools (truing stand, etc), but it doesn't make any difference in the end product in any sort of meaningful way.

Gravity Aided

All depends on your sensitivity and tolerances .

bobotech

As per the head mechanic of one of the bike shops near me, he was telling me that up to a millimeter of runout is good enough for a shop to call a wheel done.

furballi

That's a super low standard. I would not accept any rim that's out of round by +/-1 mm. A deviation of +/-1 mm in the lateral direction will definitely compromize the quality of braking, especially with modern dual-pivot brakes.

A well-built wheel should stay true to within +/-0.4 mm after 15,000 miles under normal use.

bobotech

Levels of expectations. A shop is in business to make money. Truing a wheel to absolute perfection is an exercise in diminishing returns. Getting it "good enough" is easy enough but getting it to perfection will take a lot longer than getting it to good enough. A lot of people bringing in their wheels to a shop aren't looking for perfection, they just want their wheels to not rub so much on their brakes. Its like people bringing in their car to get it repainted. A lot of people are perfectly happy with a 400 dollar Maaco paint job which is good enough. So a shop will true up a wheel so that is good enough for most people and charge accordingly. This is what my friend has told me about wheels and wheel work at the shop he used to work at. A mechanic isn't going to bother truing down to a thousandths of of an inch of runout when he knows it will take too long to get their and they are only charging 10-20 dollars a wheel to true them.

Roger M

This was free, as far as materials go. The labor is another story( I have a good friend to thank for that). It works just fine for my needs

furballi

When I was 16 and worked in a bike shop, I could get most wheels trued to within +/-0.3 mm in 15 minutes. The cost back then was $10. If I don't believe that I can accomplish this task in 15 minutes, then I would suggest a rebuilt or new wheel.