canklecat

Fact. If by "fact" I mean "I strongly concur within the limits of my experience." Which I do.

Most of my routes are roller coasters. A long continuous climb of more than 5% might be half a mile, tops, usually just a couple hundred yards. Comparing Strava logs, most of us here seem to have the same strategy -- sprint uphill, loaf but don't coast downhill. It's mostly interval training, lots of short bursts of high effort. Occasionally I'll flip it around and slog up the hills, conserving energy for the downhill sprints.

I have to ride about 30 miles west to find anything resembling a continuous climb, a 4% grade over a little more than a mile, ending in 7-9% peaklettes. There's a lot of climbing to get there, but it's still roller coasters. IIRC, there are no downhill bits, just a couple of short false flat plateau-ettes, just enough to give you hope and crush it immediately. Last time I tackled that climb was August 2017, temperature over 100F, and I haven't been motivated to try it again. I tried to mix it into a full century, my first in 30 years, and quit after 64 miles. Fortunately there was a heavy rain and 20 degree temperature drop the final 10-15 miles home, or I probably would have bailed and called Uber.

But, as with your preference for climbs over headwinds, I suspect a lot of it is a mental game. I'm accustomed to headwinds so it doesn't seem demoralizing. I'm not accustomed to long continuous climbs, so any climb longer than 400 yards begins to wear down my confidence. I begin to wonder whether I'm pacing myself properly. I begin to wonder whether I should have kept that 14-28 freewheel instead of the 13-24 or 13-25. I begin to wonder whether I should replace that 39T smaller chainring with a 38T, the smallest my old school steelie's 130 BCD crankset can handle. I begin to wonder whether I should just go ahead and pee because I'm not accustomed to leaning so far forward into the saddle and that fancypants cutout isn't really providing the promised pressure relief off my urethra.

But with a headwind I just zone out, zen out and chug along, knowing it ain't gonna stop, ever. And the return trip will be fun with the tailwind.

canklecat

A friend who rides some of the same routes I do said most of his KOMs are tailwind assisted. He's still incredibly strong and would probably still hold most of those KOMs even in a time trial type scenario with all the strongest local cyclists riding the same day, time and conditions.

Even with tailwind assist I know my limits. I mean, besides being too danged old at 61 and not getting back into cycling until a few years ago. But my climbing is mediocre at best. And I can't spin in control faster than 130 rpm. Even that feels barely in control -- not dangerous, but inefficient. My form falls apart above 110 rpm. I video myself on the trainer or set up a camera along the roadside once in awhile to check my form and it helps a little. But even among fellow 60 y/o roadie enthusiasts I'm probably the weakest of the lot.

But I can't resist a good tailwind. The Strava stuff is just for jollies. It's a sheer blast to go faster than I normally could. Same reason I used to do foolish stuff like draft big trucks when I was in my teens and 20s (this was years before Breaking Away). And it does help with my form spinning above 110 rpm, because the indoor trainer can't emulate the road feel, trying to maintain not merely good form but avoiding crashing when the pavement gets ripply and rough.

DrIsotope

If you can get a KOM around here without Mother Nature, you're either paid to ride, or mooched off of a bus/truck/etc. There's a slightly-downhill east-to-west segment ~4 miles long right near my house that I can take at threshold, and come up about two full minutes short of the KOM. Because I've never lucked into a 30mph talwind on it before... in a paceline of 10+. For all I know, they were behind a van as well.

As one of the racer-types at the LBS said, "Over a long enough time period, every KOM on Strava will be wind assisted."

You can be strong, but you'll never be as strong as the wind. I cover the same routes a whole lot. I can do 80 miles and pick up 1 PR. I have just twelve for all of 2019 so far. In December of 2018 I gathered 90. On December 28th, 20-25mph winds from the NNE pushed me from my home, 75 miles to the Pacific Ocean. I set 80 PRs, on segments I've crossed as many as 150 times. Which is double-edged, to be sure. Because now I can hit those segments at 24-25mph and... nothing. I've used up all my PRs on that stretch.

canklecat

Yup, PRs get scarcer over time. We have to tackle new routes or take advantage of tailwinds.

Even with tailwinds over time everyone finds their niche based on ability. Even my few top tens are considerably slower than the top two or three cyclists. Eventually I'll scroll off the lists as more folks ride those routes and the gaps close between the KOM and rest of the top ten. On some heavily contested and popular segments it gets down to differences of a few seconds or a few tenths of mph.

I think my one KOM is on a neighborhood loop where wind assistance is negated on one side. But most of the Strava logs are folks puttering around on hybrids and cruisers. The speed limit is 20 mph and my best speed was 21 mph, so I quit going for a faster time on that route. Eventually someone else will take it but I don't want to be the pest who's using someone's quiet residential loop as a personal time trial route.

This year I'm working more on technique, avoiding joint wear and tear and injury, and consistency. I'm hoping that'll improve my climbing. So far, so good.

Koyote

I never understood the popularity of disc brakes when I lived in Nebraska.

gregf83 

Except for the ones on actual Mountains

wphamilton

If you're comparing a short 4% grade, to a long average 4% then yes. But 4000 feet is 4000 feet no matter how you split it up. When you climb that same amount, in the same overall time, it takes the same amount of power. I think, maybe, that you are thinking of the total time of the rollers, which includes down segments, to merely the top of the long climb which doesn't. The effort is distributed over a greater distance and therefore lower power. But that's only part of the picture. Including the downhill portion, if the circuit has taken the same time it's the same power.

To be clear a 4% average steady climb is 211 feet per mile in the climbing portion. Normally we think of 100 feet per mile as a decent climbing route. I often veer to hilly routes with 100-150 feet per mile so it's not as if there's no climbing here. When you cut out half of the miles, to compare only the first climbing portion, then compare it to 200 feet per mile in rolling hills, and that would be like for like.

None of this actually pertains to my opinion to OP that his riding flat ground is NOT harder than hilly routes, and it certainly does not change that opinion.

DrIsotope

Flat ground can absolutely be harder. Going 23mph on flat ground takes every bit as much effort as going 7mph up a 5% grade-- and there are no descents.

52.30 miles, 5,279ft vertical, weighted average power (Strava) 187W (raw power 166W,) training load 180, intensity 64%
82.29 miles, 1,619ft vertical, weighted average power (Strava) 187W (raw power 178W,) training load 188, intensity 64%
75.06 miles, 852ft vertical, weighted average power (Strava) 196W (raw power 186W,) training load 154, intensity 68%

The highest average power had the least elevation. You only work just over half the time on a hilly route. And you get to go a whoooole lot slower.

wphamilton

It's harder if you put out more power - there is no point in saying that.

If you want the same speed, the hilly route is always slower given the same power. There is some point in saying that at least.

Coasting doesn't make the hilly route easier than the flat route.

DrIsotope

Say you're climbing that long grade I mentioned earlier. Faster alone, or faster with a 20mph tailwind?

I have a local segment that gains just under 600 feet in about 5 and a half miles-- the steepest portion is nearly 8%. An afternoon of unseasonable wind go me to the end at nearly 2mph faster than my 2nd place effort-- and I've covered the segment 179 times.

GuessWhoCycling

I'm not sure where the OP is riding but here in California, if I ride on flat grounds at 18 MPH I can coast for 40-50 yards without pedaling.

If I ride up a local hill, riding at 7 MPH, if I stop pedaling I can coast for maybe 5 yards.

Comparing local centuries, if riding up hill is easier, I wonder why local climbing centuries struggle to fill 400 spots vs the 10,000 who participate in flat centuries like Palm Springs.

Centuries like this one are much tougher than the flat centuries.

As far as flat courses, yes you can make them hard depending on effort. I have held 23 MPH (actually 22.9 according to Strava) for 7.3 miles. But climbing a road like GMR 6% grade, I can hold 14 MPH for about 30 yards.

one4smoke

Not crazy about flats nor severe inclines, either ascending or descending. Give me "rolling" every day of the week.

gregf83 

All the bigger (600+m) climbs around here have switchbacks so wind is seldom a factor. The guys in the top 10 are all legit Pro/1/2 riders who don't need wind. Shorter climbs, sure wind will help but clearly not as much as on the flats.


I have a KOM on a 15km hwy segment on the way to work that I've ridden over 800 times in the last few years. Wind on that segment is rarely in the right direction but it was once and I was motivated so I managed a 30mph effort. It's not a popular route for group rides so the KOM will likely stand for a while.

GuessWhoCycling

Funny I see posters talking about having KOM's on Strava. No way will I ever get close to KOM's on our local climbs.

These are the top guys on our local climbs, more than 13,500 cyclists.

canklecat

Fair point. There are no real mountains here and only a few semi-serious hills or long roller coasters with elevation gain despite the plateaus and downhill sections. Some serious Strava folk say no mountain, no KOM.

I can barely hold 300 watts for a few minutes on a climb. My rides would never register anywhere near the top ten in areas with lots of cyclists. We have a local pro team but those guys usually hide their Strava logs so they don't appear, otherwise they'd hold pretty much every KOM and top ten.

Most of what passes for KOMs locally are actually sprint zones, and some are labeled as such.

The only segments I pay attention to are at least a mile, preferably longer, especially some circuits where wind effects are negated or balanced out over time. I created several of my own, set to private. They're just for me to evaluate myself over time. But they aren't mountains and despite some climbs, most elevation is zeroed out.

NoWhammies

So this is interesting. Where I live I have nothing BUT hills. I keep thinking how nice it would be to have more flats to ride on. Never thought of how it would be difficult to go anywhere when not peddling.

So to the OP, now that you've ridden both which do you prefer?

GuessWhoCycling

Even poor ole Levi Leipheimer is # 38 on this segment.

There was a dude that used to post on this forum way back 13 years ago that I know of. Jason, really super climber. He was #8 till the Tour of California came around. Now he's #138 . Those rotten pro's ruined it for all of us!

burnthesheep

jackb

Sorry to hear you live on flatland. I hope there are compensations. I don't like cycling on the flats because it's uninteresting. I like variations in elevation for the reasons you do. Plus, the scenery is more interesting in hilly or mountainous regions.

BrocLuno

eBike to the rescue

BrocLuno

What we need are windless flats with varying vegetation and pools & ponds nearby to keep it interesting

livedarklions

That depends--sometimes, flat is because you're parallelling a river or other body of water that can be quite beautiful. Flats on a calm day are also lots of fun if you want to see just how fast you can make the bike go without gravity assist.

One thing I loved about living in the Bay Area is I could choose long rides that were flat OR climb up into the foothills all within a few miles of each other. Varying it up for my mood was pretty cool.

burnthesheep

wphamilton

BirdsBikeBinocs

I prefer hills, not mountains. I'd like to gain about 1,000 feet on weekend rides with great scenery. The flats aren't scenic enough for me. That said, there are interesting rides along the Niagara River or intown. Lots of nice paths to ride early morning when no one is out. I think Vermont would be perfect. I think.??