Why are the pros so much faster than we are?
05-12-09, 04:11 PM
#76
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It's genetics that gets you into that level. It's the training, skills and smarts that then distinguishes the cream of the cream at that level.
I could be smarter than I am, practice my butt off, train my butt off, and I won't even be there to compete.
I think that's the point. Nobody is disagreeing that any pro has to be willing to train harder and smarter than everyone else to win. What people are saying is that without the genetics, you won't even be in the race no matter how smart and hard working you are. And those genetics show up in the people who advance quickly, or beat the locals and regional riders without a lifetime of sacrifice (in other words, relatively easily and quickly).
The pro (american) football player is the kid who totally dominates at the highschool level with very little trainiing, then dominates at college with decent training and coaching. When he puts his full effort into it, he can be a competent, or even a great pro. The kids who have to work their hardest just to make the team in HS don't have a chance.
05-12-09, 04:13 PM
#77
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05-12-09, 04:25 PM
#78
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Edit: this is assuming that you're already at near ideal weight.
Last edited by twodimensional; 05-12-09 at 04:28 PM.
05-12-09, 04:59 PM
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YMCA posited a litmus test, which might give you some idea. If after a year or so of riding you can go out and do 75 miles solo on a conventional road bike sub 3 hours, you might have a shot.
Another test, if you go from Cat 5 to winning at the Cat 2 level in one season, you may have a chance.
If it takes you a season to win your first Cat 4 race, do not quit your day job.
Another test, if you go from Cat 5 to winning at the Cat 2 level in one season, you may have a chance.
If it takes you a season to win your first Cat 4 race, do not quit your day job.
05-12-09, 05:24 PM
#80
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Mike Engleman, one of the more talented US racers who didn't really race in Europe (won the Mt. Evans hill climb race 4-5 years in a row in the early 90's, held the course record until T. Danielson shattered it in 2004) was discovered like this:
Engleman starts some mass start hill climb race out west (I think it was Colo) in the Cat 4 field. He climbed away from them and caught the 3's. He rode through them and caught the back of the Pro- 1-2 race.
The pros took notice. He was signed immediately (I think he rode for Coors Light). Engleman was already 26 or 27 years old (long in the tooth for a neo-pro) but nobody cared. He went on to be the best climber in domestic racing for a decade.
THAT's why the pros are better than you and me. It's DNA you idiots. Some of these notions that you can train smart and go from Cat 3 to pro kill me. Oddly enough, many talented amateur racers actually believe this. And perhaps that's what drives them.
Whatever floats your boat. Keep your day jobs kids.
Engleman starts some mass start hill climb race out west (I think it was Colo) in the Cat 4 field. He climbed away from them and caught the 3's. He rode through them and caught the back of the Pro- 1-2 race.
The pros took notice. He was signed immediately (I think he rode for Coors Light). Engleman was already 26 or 27 years old (long in the tooth for a neo-pro) but nobody cared. He went on to be the best climber in domestic racing for a decade.
THAT's why the pros are better than you and me. It's DNA you idiots. Some of these notions that you can train smart and go from Cat 3 to pro kill me. Oddly enough, many talented amateur racers actually believe this. And perhaps that's what drives them.
Whatever floats your boat. Keep your day jobs kids.
05-12-09, 05:28 PM
#81
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You "train hard" guys have obviously never come up against a pro athlete otherwise you would know what it's like, what they're like. They are so far and away better than us mortal wannabee athletes that they'll make you pee your pants. They are truly on a different level.
I've played basketball against guys that I could not stop from scoring no matter what I did . . . and they were playing down to my level . . . and I was pretty damn good compared to regular mortals. But their skill level was just so far above mine it was ridiculous. For him (them) it was like toying with a child. It was like a college level athlete playing a high school intramural athlete.
It's a joke. They're not playing you because you're competition . . . they're playing you to wile away some time, hoping some real competition will come along soon, and it doesn't come along until they're in the pros. THEN they have to work hard. THEN they have to train daily and seriously, because now their competition is other gifted athletes.
It's a gift. We can't even comprehend what it feels like to do what they can do so easily. Just train hard? Yeah, keep dreaming.
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05-12-09, 05:33 PM
#82
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Do you know what takes mental strength?
Knowing that you're pathetic at cycling (and always will be).
Trying really hard to become less pathetic, until it hurts.
Somehow enjoying the process.
Knowing that you're pathetic at cycling (and always will be).
Trying really hard to become less pathetic, until it hurts.
Somehow enjoying the process.
05-12-09, 05:44 PM
#83
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Absolutely correct.
You "train hard" guys have obviously never come up against a pro athlete otherwise you would know what it's like, what they're like. They are so far and away better than us mortal wannabee athletes that they'll make you pee your pants. They are truly on a different level.
I've played basketball against guys that I could not stop from scoring no matter what I did . . . and they were playing down to my level . . . and I was pretty damn good compared to regular mortals. But their skill level was just so far above mine it was ridiculous. For him (them) it was like toying with a child. It was like a college level athlete playing a high school intramural athlete.
It's a joke. They're not playing you because you're competition . . . they're playing you to wile away some time, hoping some real competition will come along soon, and it doesn't come along until they're in the pros. THEN they have to work hard. THEN they have to train daily and seriously, because now their competition is other gifted athletes.
It's a gift. We can't even comprehend what it feels like to do what they can do so easily. Just train hard? Yeah, keep dreaming.
You "train hard" guys have obviously never come up against a pro athlete otherwise you would know what it's like, what they're like. They are so far and away better than us mortal wannabee athletes that they'll make you pee your pants. They are truly on a different level.
I've played basketball against guys that I could not stop from scoring no matter what I did . . . and they were playing down to my level . . . and I was pretty damn good compared to regular mortals. But their skill level was just so far above mine it was ridiculous. For him (them) it was like toying with a child. It was like a college level athlete playing a high school intramural athlete.
It's a joke. They're not playing you because you're competition . . . they're playing you to wile away some time, hoping some real competition will come along soon, and it doesn't come along until they're in the pros. THEN they have to work hard. THEN they have to train daily and seriously, because now their competition is other gifted athletes.
It's a gift. We can't even comprehend what it feels like to do what they can do so easily. Just train hard? Yeah, keep dreaming.
It's like this, you have to have exceptional genetics to get invited to the party as it were. How you do once you're there is a combination of hard they work and how smart they are. The top have it all, genetics, hard work and a bright mind. The killer combo for sporting excellence.
05-12-09, 06:32 PM
#84
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Jesus Christ, this thread is un*****ingbelievable.
I've got some other ideas for thread topics: "Why are NBA players so much better than I am?" "Why are Manchester United so much better than our local footie squad?" "Why is research into computer science and mathematics at U. of Waterloo and MIT so much more advanced than what I'm doing in my basement?"
I mean, hey, I took up basketball at the ripe old age of 35, and I'm not really all that bad. I've got a half-decent jump shot, and this guy Harvey I play against, I faked him out really good last week and almost finished a lay-up. I figure those NBAers can't really be all that much better than I am, right?
I've got some other ideas for thread topics: "Why are NBA players so much better than I am?" "Why are Manchester United so much better than our local footie squad?" "Why is research into computer science and mathematics at U. of Waterloo and MIT so much more advanced than what I'm doing in my basement?"
I mean, hey, I took up basketball at the ripe old age of 35, and I'm not really all that bad. I've got a half-decent jump shot, and this guy Harvey I play against, I faked him out really good last week and almost finished a lay-up. I figure those NBAers can't really be all that much better than I am, right?
05-12-09, 06:40 PM
#85
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Genetics alone won't get you to the top. It'll get you a good way, but not all the way.
Working your butt off won't get you to the top. It'll get you a good way, but not all the way.
Training smart won't get you to the top. It'll get you a good way, but not all the way.
Combine the three? There ya have it.
Working your butt off won't get you to the top. It'll get you a good way, but not all the way.
Training smart won't get you to the top. It'll get you a good way, but not all the way.
Combine the three? There ya have it.
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05-12-09, 07:17 PM
#86
SLJ 6/8/65-5/2/07
Absolutely correct.
You "train hard" guys have obviously never come up against a pro athlete otherwise you would know what it's like, what they're like. They are so far and away better than us mortal wannabee athletes that they'll make you pee your pants. They are truly on a different level.
I've played basketball against guys that I could not stop from scoring no matter what I did . . . and they were playing down to my level . . . and I was pretty damn good compared to regular mortals. But their skill level was just so far above mine it was ridiculous. For him (them) it was like toying with a child. It was like a college level athlete playing a high school intramural athlete.
It's a joke. They're not playing you because you're competition . . . they're playing you to wile away some time, hoping some real competition will come along soon, and it doesn't come along until they're in the pros. THEN they have to work hard. THEN they have to train daily and seriously, because now their competition is other gifted athletes.
It's a gift. We can't even comprehend what it feels like to do what they can do so easily. Just train hard? Yeah, keep dreaming.
You "train hard" guys have obviously never come up against a pro athlete otherwise you would know what it's like, what they're like. They are so far and away better than us mortal wannabee athletes that they'll make you pee your pants. They are truly on a different level.
I've played basketball against guys that I could not stop from scoring no matter what I did . . . and they were playing down to my level . . . and I was pretty damn good compared to regular mortals. But their skill level was just so far above mine it was ridiculous. For him (them) it was like toying with a child. It was like a college level athlete playing a high school intramural athlete.
It's a joke. They're not playing you because you're competition . . . they're playing you to wile away some time, hoping some real competition will come along soon, and it doesn't come along until they're in the pros. THEN they have to work hard. THEN they have to train daily and seriously, because now their competition is other gifted athletes.
It's a gift. We can't even comprehend what it feels like to do what they can do so easily. Just train hard? Yeah, keep dreaming.
Then I'd watch TV and realize there were guys who could block those guys.
Obviously a completely different sport than cycling but you either have an ability or you don't.
Of course you then have to work your butt off.
And none of this means we "normal" people can't have fun and get better.
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05-12-09, 07:25 PM
#87
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This whole thread can be summed up in a pretty easy logical premise:
Superior Talent (i.e. genetic potential, god's gift, natural talent, whatever phrase you choose to use to describe it) is a necessary, but not sufficient condition to becoming a successful professional bike racer.
Superior Talent (i.e. genetic potential, god's gift, natural talent, whatever phrase you choose to use to describe it) is a necessary, but not sufficient condition to becoming a successful professional bike racer.
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You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
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You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
05-12-09, 07:30 PM
#88
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I thought that all you'd have to know why they're so much faster than you was to read those Power Meter wattages, but maybe some of you don't train with a Power Meter or pay attention to the those numbers. It's like learning that your fastball is 64 mph and the good pros are all 90 mph+.
05-12-09, 08:12 PM
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I don't see why some of you are condemning "hard work." No one starts off at the top, not even LA... I'm sure there were MANY times when he got dropped, but that didn't discourage him, and he certainly didn't go off saying "boo hoo, I don't have uber genes 
" He just put the time in, and trained his ass off. What if he listened to the clowns here stating that if he wasn't a cycling god after 6 months, then he didn't belong in the sport? The fact is, if it wasn't for his hard work, he would have never been able to realize his potential.
Just because YOU can't compete with other people, doesn't mean that you should make excuses, and discourage others (who may have the potential to be great) to give up if they aren't cat1 in 2 months... If everyone had that type of attitude in life, we'd all be bums.
" He just put the time in, and trained his ass off. What if he listened to the clowns here stating that if he wasn't a cycling god after 6 months, then he didn't belong in the sport? The fact is, if it wasn't for his hard work, he would have never been able to realize his potential.Just because YOU can't compete with other people, doesn't mean that you should make excuses, and discourage others (who may have the potential to be great) to give up if they aren't cat1 in 2 months... If everyone had that type of attitude in life, we'd all be bums.
05-12-09, 08:13 PM
#90
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It's a lot easier to train when it's all you have to do. And even though it was 600 watts, he only had to hold it for what... 15 to 20 seconds? We're talking about a team TT right?
05-12-09, 08:16 PM
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Do some genetic gifts help one to become a great champion above other champions, like Lance Armstrong who can process and deliver oxygen with the power of a scramjet or like Michael Phelps who was genetically engineerd for swimming by the techies working at sSpeedo? Yeah. Can great genetic gifts propell a reasonably fit person to the higher levels of a sport with a small base of training? Yeah.
But, can one attain and sustain top a professional level of athletic performance without a serious lifestyle commitment to hard training, even if they are quite gifted? No. Can a person be relatively lazy until their mid 30's, hop on a bike, put down several years of serious and well-regimented training and ride at the top levels of the sport? No.
There are two basic requirements that have to be met before you can have aspirations of top level athletics: (1) Lots of quality training; and (2) Lots of quality training at a young age.
Before I began my career of pushing paper, I spent five years as a professional rock climber working for La Sportiva. Every single top pro and I had two things in common, (1) we started climbing before the age of 12 (and had been quite hyper active prior to that), and (2) we trained extremely hard. I will concede that the best in the sport had certain gifts that just made them that little bit better than everyone else which propelled them far and beyond the rest in their accomplishments. As any top level athlete knows, that extra bit can make a big difference in the results and in your consistancy in obtaining them. What kind of gifts? Chris Sharma (arguable the best) has more enzymes in his muscles that ward off lactic acid than the rest of the pros. Tommy Caldwell has tendons that are bound differntly, giving him unreal grip strength (despite having lost 2 fingers in a construction accident). But irregardless of their gifts, these guys trained exceptionally hard, and had been climbing since they could walk. Were their genetic gifts really gifts or the result of their growing bodies adapting to their lifestyle? Either way it doesn't matter, they train hard, really *^&$ing hard.
In contrast, I also met many extraordinary climbers who had aspirations of going pro (talking about top levl pro, not some lucky guy who lands a deal because he dupped a sponsor into a $5K grant). A lot of these kids had unbelievable talent, and were doing amazing things with almost no real training. Most of them never made it (yet at least). They didn't make it because they weren't willing to train their bodies to handle the stresses of top level climbing, tas such hey weren't able to get that extra bit to reach the next level.
As you get older you can still obtain great levels of strength, but there is little chance you are going to keep up with some guy who is dedicated to your sport and has been a strong athlete their entire life. They may have less time on the bike, but they have more hours of training in than you, they developed their bodies at a younger age and can possibly sustain higher peaks as a result.
Train your ass off doing what you love to do, and you will reap the rewards. Strive to always obliterate your limits, and be competitive without being bitter.
Those who don't belive this are the ones who don't get it, or they are simply blinded by their bitter anger that they did not take advantage of their youth.
But, can one attain and sustain top a professional level of athletic performance without a serious lifestyle commitment to hard training, even if they are quite gifted? No. Can a person be relatively lazy until their mid 30's, hop on a bike, put down several years of serious and well-regimented training and ride at the top levels of the sport? No.
There are two basic requirements that have to be met before you can have aspirations of top level athletics: (1) Lots of quality training; and (2) Lots of quality training at a young age.
Before I began my career of pushing paper, I spent five years as a professional rock climber working for La Sportiva. Every single top pro and I had two things in common, (1) we started climbing before the age of 12 (and had been quite hyper active prior to that), and (2) we trained extremely hard. I will concede that the best in the sport had certain gifts that just made them that little bit better than everyone else which propelled them far and beyond the rest in their accomplishments. As any top level athlete knows, that extra bit can make a big difference in the results and in your consistancy in obtaining them. What kind of gifts? Chris Sharma (arguable the best) has more enzymes in his muscles that ward off lactic acid than the rest of the pros. Tommy Caldwell has tendons that are bound differntly, giving him unreal grip strength (despite having lost 2 fingers in a construction accident). But irregardless of their gifts, these guys trained exceptionally hard, and had been climbing since they could walk. Were their genetic gifts really gifts or the result of their growing bodies adapting to their lifestyle? Either way it doesn't matter, they train hard, really *^&$ing hard.
In contrast, I also met many extraordinary climbers who had aspirations of going pro (talking about top levl pro, not some lucky guy who lands a deal because he dupped a sponsor into a $5K grant). A lot of these kids had unbelievable talent, and were doing amazing things with almost no real training. Most of them never made it (yet at least). They didn't make it because they weren't willing to train their bodies to handle the stresses of top level climbing, tas such hey weren't able to get that extra bit to reach the next level.
As you get older you can still obtain great levels of strength, but there is little chance you are going to keep up with some guy who is dedicated to your sport and has been a strong athlete their entire life. They may have less time on the bike, but they have more hours of training in than you, they developed their bodies at a younger age and can possibly sustain higher peaks as a result.
Train your ass off doing what you love to do, and you will reap the rewards. Strive to always obliterate your limits, and be competitive without being bitter.
Those who don't belive this are the ones who don't get it, or they are simply blinded by their bitter anger that they did not take advantage of their youth.
I bet they are more of the "my body is a temple" thing.
I know a few pro MTB racers. I've noticed the big difference between me and them is they are pro MTB racers AND have a day job. Oh yeah...and they are 15 years younger.
05-12-09, 08:18 PM
#92
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I don't see why some of you are condemning "hard work." No one starts off at the top, not even LA... I'm sure there were MANY times when he got dropped, but that didn't discourage him, and he certainly didn't go off saying "boo hoo, I don't have uber genes " He just put the time in, and trained his ass off. What if he listened to the clowns here stating that if he wasn't a cycling god after 6 months, then he didn't belong in the sport? The fact is, if it wasn't for his hard work, he would have never been able to realize his potential.
Just because YOU can't compete with other people, doesn't mean that you should make excuses, and discourage others (who may have the potential to be great) to give up if they aren't cat1 in 2 months... If everyone had that type of attitude in life, we'd all be bums.
" He just put the time in, and trained his ass off. What if he listened to the clowns here stating that if he wasn't a cycling god after 6 months, then he didn't belong in the sport? The fact is, if it wasn't for his hard work, he would have never been able to realize his potential.Just because YOU can't compete with other people, doesn't mean that you should make excuses, and discourage others (who may have the potential to be great) to give up if they aren't cat1 in 2 months... If everyone had that type of attitude in life, we'd all be bums.
But knock yourself out Big Boy.
You'll become a better Cat 4. Or Cat 3. Maybe you'll even upgrade to Cat 2. But try not to be completely delusional.
Never mind. I know you are incapable of that. Oh no. Did I spoil your day? Look within my little Poserling.
05-12-09, 08:20 PM
#93
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review post 87.
review Intro to logic. Talent is a necessary condition. Hard work is also a necessary condition.
Neither gentics, nor hard work are sufficient conditions.
review Intro to logic. Talent is a necessary condition. Hard work is also a necessary condition.
Neither gentics, nor hard work are sufficient conditions.
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You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
05-12-09, 08:30 PM
#94
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Yes, yes, but there is more, family, friends, team mates, coaching, mentoring, luck. Yes, plain blind luck, or, if you must, "destiny."
Try reaching the highest level, and if you get there, and don't give a nod to luck, you haven't learned.
If you haven't tried, you don't know.
Try reaching the highest level, and if you get there, and don't give a nod to luck, you haven't learned.
If you haven't tried, you don't know.
05-12-09, 08:33 PM
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I thought that all you'd have to know why they're so much faster than you was to read those Power Meter wattages, but maybe some of you don't train with a Power Meter or pay attention to the those numbers. It's like learning that your fastball is 64 mph and the good pros are all 90 mph+.
If not that...look at the average speed on some of these stages and realize it is that speed all day...every day. all day...every day.
05-12-09, 08:35 PM
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You can train and train and train and train and train and train. If God didn't grant you the snot, it won't matter.
But knock yourself out Big Boy.
You'll become a better Cat 4. Or Cat 3. Maybe you'll even upgrade to Cat 2. But try not to be completely delusional.
Never mind. I know you are incapable of that. Oh no. Did I spoil your day? Look within my little Poserling.
But knock yourself out Big Boy.
You'll become a better Cat 4. Or Cat 3. Maybe you'll even upgrade to Cat 2. But try not to be completely delusional.
Never mind. I know you are incapable of that. Oh no. Did I spoil your day? Look within my little Poserling.
If you don't try, you'll never know... and I don't call 6 months a great effort (which is the measure of some posters here). I'd rather be a hard worker, than a wimp who gives up and makes excuses... Call me all the names you want, it doesn't bother me one bit
. Maybe you're just bitter because you're decades past your prime?
Last edited by brandondan1; 05-12-09 at 08:39 PM.
05-12-09, 08:36 PM
#97
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I'm going to try this again, so everyone understands.
To be a professional cyclist, you need talent, dedication, coaching, equipment, timing, luck, support, hard work, etc.
You can everything but talent, and you'll never make it, regardless of how hard you work.
You can have talent and still not make it. But if you don't have talent to start, you're not even in the running.
How hard is this to grasp?
To be a professional cyclist, you need talent, dedication, coaching, equipment, timing, luck, support, hard work, etc.
You can everything but talent, and you'll never make it, regardless of how hard you work.
You can have talent and still not make it. But if you don't have talent to start, you're not even in the running.
How hard is this to grasp?
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
05-12-09, 08:38 PM
#98
Senior Member
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There is still more!
Most of "them" have something just a bit wrong with them - you, ahem, I mean "we" cannot out train "them." There is a mental/emotional aspect that you, I mean "we" do not understand.
Did you puke today? Did you heave this week? Were you even nauseous? For how long? ...and did you like it?
Most of "them" have something just a bit wrong with them - you, ahem, I mean "we" cannot out train "them." There is a mental/emotional aspect that you, I mean "we" do not understand.
Did you puke today? Did you heave this week? Were you even nauseous? For how long? ...and did you like it?
05-12-09, 08:42 PM
#99
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
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No dispute here (except perhaps the ratio you have in mind). That's just as relevant to what pcad said... but I guess OG status gives him immunity.
It's called reading comprehension. Perhaps that's genetic, too?
If you don't try, you'll never know... and I don't call 6 months a great effort (which is the measure of some posters here). I'd rather be a hard worker, than a wimp who gives up and makes excuses... Maybe you're just bitter because you're decades past your prime?
It's called reading comprehension. Perhaps that's genetic, too?
If you don't try, you'll never know... and I don't call 6 months a great effort (which is the measure of some posters here). I'd rather be a hard worker, than a wimp who gives up and makes excuses... Maybe you're just bitter because you're decades past your prime?
I for one am not dissing hard work, but those in this thread that think you can receive salvation by works alone, they are in fact delusional.
As for being old and bitter, I never aspired to be a professional cyclist, and wouldn't trade my income or lifestyle for a professional cyclist, so I have nothing to be bitter about.
(and brandondan1, i'm betting that if you do in fact wear underwear under your bibs I can still drope the hammer on you decades after my prime.)
Now whether Pcad is bitter is another story.
And as for 6 moths not being enough. Give me one example of a successful professional cyclist who struggled for more than 6 months to get out of the 4's. There may be one , but it would be the freak circumstance.
And as for giving up, I'm not suggesting that if you're not Cat 2 in a season you quit racing. I am suggesting that you may need to be realistic about that day job.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
Last edited by merlinextraligh; 05-12-09 at 09:03 PM.
