Poppit

Interesting reading, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16287351


Can't publish the full paper as it's over the size limit for attachments

carleton

Here is the abstract: (emphasis mine)

Basically, adding some power to a basic roadie training program helps.

Some of the pros have been doing this for a long time:





(Only using pics of Lance because I know he did strength and plyo conditioning.)

I do believe that a lot of hardcore roadies would benefit greatly from strength training. Many of them fear that gaining muscle will weight them down in the hills.

VanceMac

That study isn't terrible, but I think this is where most studies like this fail miserably: "for 4-5 weeks of training."

warx

I think the hardest part about heavy weights is time spent suffering DOMS afterwards... For me the three days after doing heavy legs (routine below if curious) are sooo painful nowadays. Day One I can actually ride and even >LT feels good (oddly) but Day Two just painful to sit and then Day Three you feel like you want go ride but every part of your legs are telling you you're going to regret it.

These days I also need two (more often three) easy days between intervals so fitting a gym day in means a "week" schedule becomes 10 days. Then during winter strength period you throw in 'cross season w/ races Sat & Sun every weekend it's easy to see why weights lose out.

Leg day:
3 x 12,10,8 single leg squat
3 x 12,10,8 single leg press,
1 x 10 speed extensions
4 x 12 calf raises
3 x 10 leg curls

Plyo day:
4 x 16 box jumps (step down)
4 x 10 single leg ground jump (land on both feet - minimize eccentric)
20 min run with 10 sec sprints

Carlosss

If you train the same exercises regurlarly (at leat 1-2 times a week) you will find you don't get any DOMS at all. In fact strength athletes never get DOMS (except when coming back from time off or adding in new exercises).

topflightpro

I have not found that to be the case for me. DOMS doesn't really bother me on the upper body stuff, but it does on legs. And like Warx, day two is always the worst. I usually struggle to get out of chairs, and I end up walking funny. I can generally ride and do hard intervals during the DOMS, but other general movement is challenging.

I've found overloading on BCAAs after lifting helps reduce the DOMS some, but it's not a panacea.

noglider 

How long does that take? I've been lifting weights for about a year now, and I still get sore. It's not a dreadful pain, mind you. It's enough to remind me to stretch, and the pain is better than the pain I was getting before I started lifting. That previous pain was from disuse, and I prefer the pain of use.

warx

Yes exactly. Upper body gets used to heavy weights quickly and DOMS not an issue. After months of regular once-a-week heavy legs it still puts me in hobble mode easily. I should try weights twice a week but, man, the thought of being in that state every day seems daunting.

This didn't happen 20 or even 10 years ago! I used to do more sets less reps and to failure each set but these days that makes it worse.

I have a strict daily stretch regimen also. I find w/out that my rear muscle chain gets too short and things like running really hurt my achilles.

I've even tried EMS/TENS as recovery but it makes no difference. Sort of makes sense since DOMS is more fiber damage repairing itself not so much residues etc. Talking of EMS, I have never tried this for strength, speed and recruitment but I've read that is has some good effects for cyclists - but the gain plateaus pretty quickly (like after 12 sessions). Strength EMS is not pretty and is painful though - and leaves you with ... you guessed it ... DOMS!

Brian Ratliff

One day a week isn't doing you many favors. Lift more frequently. You don't need nearly as much rest as you think you do. Start small with short workouts and light weights every other day (or maybe even every day...). Gradually extend both in intensity and duration. No more DOMS. DOMS has little to do with muscle rebuilding; it's more akin to residual pain signals. Doing a lift while having DOMS is frequently a good way to get through it faster.

warx

I will give it a shot! Thanks! I always wonder where the balance is for damage/repair vs. real adaptation while leaving the body able to maintain a decent VO2 training load. Still have to get some intervals in there and I'd thought about doing a sweetspot-sprints or LT ride the same day as weights - then take a rest day.

Interesting to see how this 49yo body copes. I do believe in changing it up though.

Carlosss

Typically after three exposures or so to the same movements and with similar volumes (weight x reps x sets roughly) you should be adapted enough that it won't cause any significant DOMS. That being said, some exercises and types of training are more prone to it. For example, single-leg exercises and those with longer ranges of motion and loaded eccentrics.

If one is getting DOMS in a consistent basis like it seems to be the case for some of you, I think what's happening is your body isn't quite adapting to the stimulus. Like Brian Ratliff said once a week is borderline really. For example, I could do squats once a week with moderate volumes and be perfectly fine. Do very hard squat workouts once a week and I will likely get DOMS. Or do single-leg Bulgarian squats even with moderate volumes once a week and you may find getting DOMS too. However, I could do fairly hard training sessions with any lower body exercise you can think of multiple times a week and never get any DOMS.

Basically if training sessions are too far apart then either: 1) your body is adapting and thereafter detraining (losing the training effect) or 2) your body isn't adapting because the stimulus isn't applied consistently enough to trigger your body to adapt.

As you can see the key here is to have some sort of progression and with enough recovery between repeating training sessions, but no more than is necessary. That way each training session isn't a huge disruption to your body and at the same time the cumulative effect means your body has no option but to adapt. In practise this means everyone should aim to lift weights at least twice a week if they're really after a positive effect.

noglider 

@Carlosss, I'm lifting for general fitness, not track racing, in case it matters.

I'm doing overhead presses about three times a week. Maybe I'm not feeling DOMS, but it's some kind of soreness. It's not debilitatingly painful, but it's something I notice.

Baby Puke

That looks like a lot of volume, Warx. Maybe pare it down to the essential lifts and then what Brian Ratliff said.

Rvair

The stronger you get, the more recovery time is needed. Someone who rear squats 225 for a set of ten reps can easily work legs twice a week. When you get up to 405 for sets of 10, you need a minimum of 5 days rest.

Rollfast

Also see Tom Stormcrowe's thread on copyrights...you'd be sorta there as well.

warx

I've been sticking to single leg exercises for a number of reasons:
- closer assimilation to cycling,
- increase in stability,
- easier to self spot,
- less equipment!
(e.g. single leg squats only require 2 x 80 lb dumbbells)

However, I am realizing there is much greater eccentric strain with the slower controlled lowering and stopping. It's also impossible to do a bench seat stop with single leg squats. This might be a contributory factor.

taras0000

You don't need 5 days rest. When I was racing at the national level I was squatting 465 for 8 x 3, doing it twice a week, with a third day of either deadlifting or cleans. That's bodybuilding thinking, training legs once a week.

VanceMac

I believe this is a red herring. And one that detracts from primary purpose of gym work.


Quite agree.

Doge

About one legged work.
@1:43 he says which mean he can't do 1 leg squats either, so he uses the machine with 120kg then 140kg

My kid was trained also to use one leg. Part of that was so it didn't put too much total weight on his body and part of that was the max weight that would fit on the machine. He was/is a roadie, so nothing like you sprinters lift.

VanceMac

My red herring comment referred not to single-leg work, but to "closer assimilation to cycling." It almost guaranteed that everyone new to the gym will immediately try to overthink it and get "cycling specific" with movements. Yes, even pro coaches do it. But I pretty strongly believe that is misguided.

Doge

OK, well, more clear.

On similar to cycling I do not see why gym exercises require a further range of motion than would be had on the bike.
I see some riders doing deep squats. I'd like to know why that is better (I think it isn't) than the range in the video above.

VanceMac

On this point specifically, I couldn't disagree more.

In brief: goal of gym is to make muscles stronger. How you make yourself stronger is a very mature practice. Sure, you can point to a thousand different schools of thought, but that's mainly when either a) people try to combine it with some kind of aerobic conditioning or b) try to make it "fun" for the general public. Otherwise, getting stronger is a pretty simple process. Until you try to out-think it by getting overly specific.

Now, think of all the muscles involved in a squat (ALL of which will be involved to varying degrees in cycling). Are those muscles getting stronger over time by going through a 3-inch range of motion or an 8-inch range of motion (ROM)? Just because your pedal stroke is similar to the 3-inch version, doesn't mean that the narrow 3-inch ROM is maximizing the muscle growth of that narrow/specific ROM. Muscles and muscle growth don't work that way.

This doesn't mean specificity has NO place. As a cyclist, I tend to put more emphasis on my squats and deadlifts than my press. Furthermore, I think there is an increasing need for specificity (or more accurately, specialization of accessory work) once you are at a very high level (you are near max genetic potential of your strength... which most of us will never approach).

Oversimplifying, do you really think you can get the peak as high in graph A as in graph B???

Doge

Thanks for the discussion. I see it not only strength, but also efficiency in W/kg (although not so important at the track) and feeding the muscles.
I think you can likely get the peak as high in both - but I don't know. If the ROM needed for your measurement (Power) is covered in graph A, I lean toward thinking you can get a higher peak in A.
It would not surprise me to see a graph B muscle also being more massive, which outside of a anaerobic effort is a factor and still one anytime climbing is involved.

Strength gains via some neurological development vs building mass is something I see, but don't completely understand. This was my 15 year old doing 4-6 reps after about 1 year.

Below was limited ROM, but more than 3". The weight doubled from 500# to 1,000#, and he went from 135 to 140#. Force on feet is over 700#. There was no way he could do that with a squat. Later he did more one-leg as in the video I linked to.

Doge

I agree.
I have not seen the weight gain relative to others the same age range with strength training vs not strength training.
I see increased speed in most things 30 min or less. The longer events - it is hard to tell how much it helps. I observed several middle level juniors move to top tier lifting, but also saw the top junior didn't lift. But nobody really gained much weight. But then they were isolating a bit and still putting in big miles.

warx

When I see folks like Robert Forstemanns' deep squats then I worry about ROM (and knee longevity). I think we're looking for the best stimulus for adaptation which seems well understood and is more than the cycling motion. Cycling doesn't even have eccentric which is a major contributor. Maybe cycling never fires certain undeveloped fibers at the extents of the cycling ROM but it's not to say that they may be employed if adapted by weight training first - or as diagrammed above the bell is wider. Nice to have x% more even if just at the ends of the ROM.

Anyways, I was very close to upgrading my home gym with a Oly bar and weights on my way to Hellyer yesterday. (San Jose has a lot of places selling new/used plates.) After googling round-n-rount about full cage vs. half cage vs. spotter arms vs. bumper plates it all seemed just too much of a commitment at my age/level. Going to stick with heavy dumbbell single leg squats and lunges. Regardless of the assimilation, it is still great stimulus to the main and secondary groups, less strain on the back, less risk and a cr@p load less equipment (which I already have). At my bodyweight loading up with two 70lb dumbells on one leg is about the equivalent of 400lb on a barbell. Easy drop from just a few inches.