Originally Posted by Todzilla

Is there a name for this?

Originally Posted by billyymc

Same here. I'll gesture for them to pass if I feel like they're hanging back needlessly, then give them a wave when they do.

Originally Posted by CliffordK

How about look for a way that you can facilitate the safely passing. Pull over, slow down... Share the road?

Originally Posted by CliffordK

How about look for a way that you can facilitate the safely passing. Pull over, slow down... Share the road?

Originally Posted by Roycerson

No, a few moments, not too much to ask, not at all; I agree completely. Otoh, in the conditions I drive in if I expected anything like what a lot of these guys are asking I'd be in a coma. No wonder people hate bicyclists. If you want a little consideration try giving it. We're all in this effort of getting around safely and efficiently together.

There are definitely slushie hurling rednecks and others that are pissed off you ride a bicycle on the road at all and go out of their way to express it verbally or with their vehicle that you'll never make happy and some drivers who could drastically increase the safety and efficiency of traffic situations with just a small amount of consideration. OK many drivers like that but some are especially bad. And the worst, people who aren't sufficiently competent to operate their vehicle on public roads. I think there's a ton of those. It's not just a bicyclist problem.

BUT... It's a two way street. It's not a scientific sampling but the selfish attitude about asserting YOUR rights to the road as you see them above a concern for safety, efficiency and cooperation seems to be far more prevalent here than in the general driving population of the 'not bicyclist friendly' town I am on the outskirts of.

I've been riding regularly for touring, commuting, and recreation in Oklahoma for about 5 years but I have not involved myself much in "bicycle culture'. When I asked about a Brooks saddle at Al's they literally laughed at me and said wouldn't we all like one. So I ordered it online. I don't know what brought me back here other than some time on my hands and I'm doing some reading and thinking: "Holy crap bicyclists are jerks! I'm glad they don't feel welcome here."

To relate it to the OP. You mean this person passed you successfully without infringing on anyone else's equal ability to utilize the roadway but still could have done better? Yeah, I tend to think most drivers could do a lot better with only a small amount of effort, training and awareness. But they passed successfully w/o infringing on anyone else. That's the standard. Well done. Both made it through the day. Probably should have just passed in the first place but I understand the excess caution.

There is absolutely no way I can reasonably expect 36" from a competent driver in some of the traffic situations I encounter. That would make me an unbearable prick regardless of the law. 2 box trucks, myself, and my mirror can safely share a 24' road at 50mph but sometimes that's not true about me and 2 Toyota Tercels. Those Toyota drivers are the problem. Also I try to pick better roads and times but to leave my house and go anywhere there is a risk of that situation.

Originally Posted by Roycerson

No, a few moments, not too much to ask, not at all; I agree completely. Otoh, in the conditions I drive in if I expected anything like what a lot of these guys are asking I'd be in a coma. No wonder people hate bicyclists. If you want a little consideration try giving it. We're all in this effort of getting around safely and efficiently together.

There are definitely slushie hurling rednecks and others that are pissed off you ride a bicycle on the road at all and go out of their way to express it verbally or with their vehicle that you'll never make happy and some drivers who could drastically increase the safety and efficiency of traffic situations with just a small amount of consideration. OK many drivers like that but some are especially bad. And the worst, people who aren't sufficiently competent to operate their vehicle on public roads. I think there's a ton of those. It's not just a bicyclist problem.

BUT... It's a two way street. It's not a scientific sampling but the selfish attitude about asserting YOUR rights to the road as you see them above a concern for safety, efficiency and cooperation seems to be far more prevalent here than in the general driving population of the 'not bicyclist friendly' town I am on the outskirts of.

I've been riding regularly for touring, commuting, and recreation in Oklahoma for about 5 years but I have not involved myself much in "bicycle culture'. When I asked about a Brooks saddle at Al's they literally laughed at me and said wouldn't we all like one. So I ordered it online. I don't know what brought me back here other than some time on my hands and I'm doing some reading and thinking: "Holy crap bicyclists are jerks! I'm glad they don't feel welcome here."

To relate it to the OP. You mean this person passed you successfully without infringing on anyone else's equal ability to utilize the roadway but still could have done better? Yeah, I tend to think most drivers could do a lot better with only a small amount of effort, training and awareness. But they passed successfully w/o infringing on anyone else. That's the standard. Well done. Both made it through the day. Probably should have just passed in the first place but I understand the excess caution.

There is absolutely no way I can reasonably expect 36" from a competent driver in some of the traffic situations I encounter. That would make me an unbearable prick regardless of the law. 2 box trucks, myself, and my mirror can safely share a 24' road at 50mph but sometimes that's not true about me and 2 Toyota Tercels. Those Toyota drivers are the problem. Also I try to pick better roads and times but to leave my house and go anywhere there is a risk of that situation.

Originally Posted by dh024

Sorry, but if it isn't safe, I absolutely don't agree that a driver's convenience trumps my safe access to a public facility like a road.

Safe access is a basic entitlement and provided by law, but convenient speeds are purely a luxury. Period. Full stop.

I think it is alarming how much society has normalized the concept that speed of travel is both a necessity and an entitlement, which I know was not your point, but this realization underlies a lot of the philosophy expressed here by people making excuses for motorists who don't pass safely.

Originally Posted by Todzilla

Is there a name for this?

Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm

Must Pass Bicyclist syndrome.

Sometimes "too long" is less than a second.

While sometimes there is nothing you can do about it, I have found more often than not that early intervention and communication does wonders.

CyclingSavvy has a saying that is "You Lead The Dance". That links to an article and a great video. The basic idea is that you establish yourself as the leader, and the motorists will fall in step. I've found this to be true, almost always.

What works best for me is to let them know I know they are there - the sooner the better; before they get annoyed. That seems to establish in their minds that I'm indeed "the leader" (of the dance); the one in control. I'd never believe if I didn't experience it time after time after time. As they approach (a mirror helps immensely in identifying and timing the situation well) you just look back and nod, or give them a "slow" arm signal. Now they know you know they are there - that alone goes a long towards discouraging the "hey there is a car behind you, you moron" annoyed/angry honk. Then you keep going until you see it is safe for them to pass at which point you let them know by either moving aside a bit, or waving. That CyclingSavvy video shows some examples. Really good stuff.

Originally Posted by genec

The biggest problem with "leading the dance" or "playing alpha" is that there is almost always some clown in a big over-sized truck that has been trying to prove that he is "THE alpha...." and will let you and everyone else know it. (He's the guy with the slushies, mentioned way back in this thread...) That's one reason for the "almost always..." in your sentence up above. The other reason for "almost always," is the sheer lack of patience of some folks; my wife has that problem. (we call it her 67 second problem) If she doesn't get "instant gratification" in a situation... she is more than willing to express her displeasure... as no doubt, are others, who might be driving, with that same lack of patience.

Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm

Well if encountering such a clown on occasion is the biggest problem it's pretty minor. So you shrug your shoulders. Big deal.

Again, the lack of patience issue is practically eliminated with early communication. But it really has to be early. Once they're already annoyed (though perhaps not yet expressing), it's too late. I can't remember the last time I was harassed by a motorist that I had acknowledged in time. It has been years and thousands of miles. But maybe I just haven't been on the same road with your wife behind.

Originally Posted by genec

Nah, she isn't likely to do it... my constant nagging has resulted in some due patience for two wheeled road users...

But there are others like her.

I recall at least one situation in which while attempting to communicate and acknowledge the motorist behind me, I was "rewarded" with a single finger and roaring engine as he took off and ran the light where I was waiting to make a left. Now that was a clown indeed. No, I wasn't hit... if that is your only metric for "road cooperation..."

Originally Posted by Rollfast

I've said this more than a few times now, Trains > Semis > Cars > YOU.

And if a Cessna lands on your street, get away fast.

Why this fairly silly argument over whom is in charge continues year after year, and amongst the same people is simply beyond me.

You don't belong in the pack with auto traffic. You work through it and with it.

Dying is not a learning experience.

Originally Posted by Rollfast

Not the same death. Pay attention. Don't expect chivalry or whatever. That's what I've been saying for 10 years. We've established that cyclists are at a disadvantage like motorcyclists. They ride directly in traffic, they have MOTORS. And they die in savage accidents with cars.

Originally Posted by Rollfast

The answer is always to watch for yourself and not do anything unexpected, work through and with traffic.

Originally Posted by Rollfast

Nope, always assume you are invisible. It's not paranoid.

Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm

How do you simultaneously assume you are invisible and not do anything unexpected?
If you're invisible anything you do is unexpected. It's like assuming you're riding in the dark in dark clothing without lights or reflectors.

It's not just a literal logical contradiction. It has serious practical implications. Cyclists who assume they are invisible can usually do fine in light traffic (like ninjas), but are often flummoxed in medium to heavy fast traffic situations where being seen is fundamental to making progress.

Considering merging left when alongside fast heavy traffic. It's practically impossible in the dark in dark clothing without lights. To safely merge across such traffic, you have to not only assume you're visible, you have to heavily rely on your visibility.

Assuming you're invisible might be okay for skirting around in light traffic, but it's a debilitating assumption when riding in serious traffic situations.

Originally Posted by genec

I ride as if I am Casper the ghost. Casper is a friendly ghost, and those that believe, can see him. Otherwise, you are invisible.

I ride like this as obviously some folks do see me, and acknowledge my ROW... while other folks can look in my direction, and are looking right past me, as if I am invisible.

I have also seen the look on driver's faces when they suddenly "see" me. It is quite interesting to have ROW, be moving across the road and have a motorist about to make a right turn on red right in front of you suddenly change face from looking through you, to looking at you. It's as if they've seen a ghost.

Originally Posted by genec

Now bear in mind that I dress in bright yellows, oranges, have loads of lighting, and even have patches of orange material all over my bike and bags... frankly, if a driver does not see me, I question their ability to legally drive, due to apparently poor eyesight... so I figure I must be invisible. At least to those that don't care to see.

Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm

That's just inattentional blindness; par for the course. Bicyclists and motorists are probably more prone to it than motorists in cars, but even buses and trucks have been "not seen" by human drivers.


Bright clothing and lighting only addresses sensory perception. But... "there is more to conspicuity that just sensory quality. 'Cognitive conspicuity' is equally or more important for drawing attention. We are much more likely to notice things which are relevant to us in some way."

The primary way I know to improve cognitive conspicuity to motorists prone to inattentional blindness is by positioning, but that's not perfect either, of course.

Originally Posted by Todzilla

Is there a name for this?

You know, someone waits patiently behind you to pass, presumably because it's not safe yet. Then, when it's no safer, but they feel like they've waited long enough, they just do it, because they showed some allotted amount of patience.

Originally Posted by Fargo Wolf

Yeah... It's called being an A-Hole motorist....

Happened to me and a supervisor earlier this year. Some idiot lost patience with us because she wasn't able to safely pass two cyclists on the road, due to traffic. She flipped on the beacon lights on the truck and waited patiently. Inpatient driver lost it and laid on the horn and made two attempts to aggressively pass, by was foiled by oncoming traffic. The third time he tried it, he was successful, but nearly ran an oncoming car off the road.

My supervisor lost it. She actually gave chase to the driver. Scary ride for me. She never really caught up him though, which is probably for the best. She was pretty unhappy about the incident all the way back to town.

Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm

Stuff like that stopped happening to me once I learned to habitually communicate with motorists behind me.

I think what really gets to them is not just being slowed down, but feeling ignored. So... issue an arm signal, they know they're not ignored, and so don't feel ignored.