Flog00

Is the Phil worth the extra money, or is a White sufficient?

36 hole, 135, disc rear hub to mate with a front SON28, Velocity Atlas rims.

Also, my builder wants to tie and solder. Opinions?

Thanks,
Scott

hueyhoolihan

you asked for it Scott, so here's Huey "I calls 'em as i see 'em" Hoolihan's opinion, warts and all.

honestly, i would get this and be done with it. Phil and WI are way, way overpriced.

for the first few years i rode as an adult i was convinced, for no particularly good reason other than the glowing and reverential terms in which certain brand names were discussed, that Phil (WI didn't exist at the time) actually made components that were in some way superior to all others. subsequently, i've found out that they are not. they just cost more. i'm not entirely anti WI though, in fact, i've got a couple of WI Eno Eccentric rear hubs (nobody makes a comparable model), and i have no problem with them.

builder's that are still advocating tying and soldering wouldn't be my first or even second choice. nowadays if i weren't the "kind and gentler type" i would call them (and here's a wart ->) a quaint affectation.

RiseAlways

Why not watch ebay for a Phil?....

fietsbob

I liked Phil for Freewheel Hubs ,, the one vulnerability with freewheel hubs, the bent axle, Is gone ..

they are both San Francisco Bay area Companies .. an expensive place to do anything in anymore ,


but actual Touring If you need a new wheel in a small town like this one, with a lot of Tourist traffic , You will not get a Custom Rebuild. in a day.

unless you are willing to spend a week in one spot. .. off-the peg replacements are Shimano Freehub wheels ..

now if the plan is to build a expensive touring wheel set for its Own sake , Be My Guest ...
Phil's field serviceable axle design simplifies bearing access &you may pull the hub apart to access a broken spoke
as i suppose from reading. (have not tried dont own the new stuff)

Tied (Copper wire) and soldered at the last cross `were Done on Track Wheels which see a lot of side forces on steeply Banked Corners on Velodrome tracks .

seeker333

+1

PW & WI are pricey boutique hubs (and BBs). CK headsets too. I have actually used these, except for WI. They are pretty but you can't really justify paying 10X as much for bike components, all of which eventually wear out or obsolete due to technological advancements.

I have had excellent service from XT 750 and 756 series. I've used 756 hubs on two bikes now, no problems, and they're inexpensive if you're a good internet shopper. If you're building a touring bike for travel, you may want to consider Shimano Centerlock disc hubs, so that you can remove the brake rotors easily when packing. Rotors tend to get bent a little when you transport bikes, and they can be difficult to get back to nearly-perfect "true" condition.

I have built my own wheels for 20 years, and even T&S a wheelset, which accomplished nothing AFAICT - so don't T&S them - even if it's free. It doesn't seem to do anything except make the wheel heavier and possibly weaken the spokes from soldering/heating.

I may build with some polished Atlas rims myself soon.

I always use Wheelsmith DB spokes, because they cost less and weigh less than DT. I believe their butting profile places material where it's most needed. Plus WS is made in the USA - and so are Velocity rims since 2013, made from USA produced aluminum. These are about the only reputable made-in-USA components you can build into a bike these days - unless you give PW/WI/CK a pile of money. Or a Trek Madone/Emonda frame - which is not suited for touring.

MassiveD

I like phil but went for White because at the time their hub was much lighter, with a ti shell, and to boot cost less. If I was starting all over again I would go Phil Freewheel, I have some freewheels, and I don`t like high gear count wheels for touring. I am OK with 8, but today when you get a hub for an 8, like a White, the rigging angles are actually pretty high because they are designed for 9s or 10s. Actually, that would be a good reason to pay up for the Phil cassette.

So what I am saying is if you are in the extreme minority of sensible freewheel users you should go phil, and it isn`t all that expensvie.

For Cassette the choice is Phil vs White, and the phil is probably better riggin angles, vs White with a lighter hub, and more of a high gear orientation. Not really touring, more MTB racing.

People complain about the cost, but then they go for these expensive, not so durable cassettes, that push you into expensive not durable chains, to sensibly use all the gears, you need brifters, and before you know it you dropped a grand or more, and you still don`t have Rohloff, or any parts that were actually designed for a touring bike. Shimano brainwashing - Priceless.

The reason Phil is so heavy, and white uses ti, is because the shimano gear doesn't deliver on durability. To get the same reputation with cassette that the Phil hubs had pre-cassette, that is what they need to weigh. The Shimano design is that bad, and all the fix required was a heavier axle that they also built. Or go to an integrated axle that doesn't use skewers. The road thinking pollution makes that undoable.

79pmooney

I've picked up three Phil hubs. They do not have a lot of miles and have seen absolutely no service except an occasional wipe with a rag. I did run into an issue with the (not Phil) QR that was very hard to get past a very stiff LowRider rack. Phil sent me a bolt-on axle. Swap was easy. And the bolt-on is the right tool for the job. (And a real step harder for someone to lift who isn't carrying an allen key. Also looks nice.) Any other hub and that wheel would not see that bike again and I would have to build another.

Ben

staehpj1

Either are nice, but both are overkill. While they have some advantages, I see no real necessity for either. Deore is good enough. OTOH if the overkill and bling factor make you happy then go for it.

I have never seen it done on a touring bike. I always thought that was done for stiffness and I don't think added stiffness is necessarily even a good thing. I personally wouldn't.

cyccommute 

There are trade-offs. The White Industries is lighter and, I feel, a little smoother but it's a bit harder to take apart. The Phil FSC can be taken apart with a couple of allen wrenches and the freehub comes off without having to break the cassette if you have to replace drive side spokes. The bearings are easier to remove and replace as well. For touring, the Phil Wood is probably the better choice.

There are other downsides to freewheels that you neglect to mention such as removal in the field to replace broken spokes. Removing a cassette is fairly easy even if you can't pull the whole freehub off like the Phils. Removal of a freewheel isn't something that is often not easy to do even with a vise. You have to carry (or borrow) a very large wrench to do it by hand.

I don't get your "rigging angles" argument. A freehub for an 8 speed isn't any narrower than a freehub for a 9 or 10 speed cassette. The hub bodies are the same but the spacers between the cogs and the cogs themselves are thinner.

That isn't borne out by the dimensions of the hub. For cassettes, the WI hubs (Mi5) has a locknut to flange dimension of 47mm while the Phils measure at 48mm. The flange diameter is 54mm in the Phil and 55 mm in the WI hub.

You don't need STI to use all the gears. Many people get along just fine with barend shifters and others do well with downtube. You'll find endless debates on the merits of each system here on the Bike Forums. One really isn't all that much better than the others.

As for durability, there are dozens of cassette choices so you can't make a blanket statement about cassettes not being "durable". If you used a titanium or aluminum cassette, your durability probably isn't going to be great and it certainly won't be good enough to justify the expense. But a steel cassette will last every bit as well as a steel freewheel will. Chains are going to last just as well. A cassette and chain may not last for a around the world trip but they'll probably get you half to most of the way. And they would certainly last well past the duration of most people's touring trips...or several of them.

The Shimano freehub design isn't "bad" nor is it delicate. Seldom do I see a freehub that isn't functional at my local co-op and I see thousands of bikes each year. Generally speaking, if a gear cluster is going to drag and be frozen, 99 times out of 100, it's going to be a freewheel that has the problem, not a freehub.

And I have yet to see a bent axle on a freehub equipped bike. Bent axles on freewheel bikes are very common...enough so that we have next to no axles for freewheel hubs that we've scavenged from other bikes. Usually, we can't scavenge the axles because they are bent.

cyccommute 

Either would work. As I pointed out above, both have their advantages.

Don't tie and solder, there's no need. If you use a spoke with a 2.3mm spoke you get a similar effect with a more durable head.

pdlamb

Is the White hub the one that sounds like a WWII movie strafing run when it freewheels / coasts? One of the guys I ride with occasionally has one, and it drives me up the wall.

Philly Tandem

A lot of the higher-end hubs sound like that. Part of it has to do with the fact that they have more pawls inside the freehub for better/faster engagement. More pawls + more freehub grooves = more noise. Chris King is known for being noisy. My DT540 hubs can be really noisy if the lube isn't kept fresh, and even the Hadley hubs on my tandems are louder than a standard Shimano hub. The Phil Wood hub I have on my touring wheels is a bit louder than Shimano, but doesn't bother me much.

Is the Phil Wood hub worth it? That's been oft-debated here and elsewhere. I got mine used and built it up into a wheel, so I'm not as invested as if I bought it new. I like it for several reasons: 1) Ability to easily disassemble with Allen wrenches; not so much to be able to easily replace a spoke, but more because my bike is an S&S bike and being able to pull the cassette and axle makes it WAY easier to pack 2) Phil hubs have the spoke holes slightly chamfered/rounded, which puts less stress on the spoke heads and makes them less likely to break there, when compared with a hub that has hard edges at the spoke holes (most Shimano hubs that I've seen) 3) Standard bearings that are easy to replace 4) Build quality is very high, and these will last forever for most people. I'm still running a PW BB on my MTB that I got back in college in the late 1980s. Good as new, apart from replacing the bearings once in the 90s when my bike shop messed them up and paid to replace them.

Tying and soldering spokes is old-school, but still loved by some. Part of the idea is that by tying two spokes together they essentially become one unit, sharing any extra loads between them. With modern components I'd take a pass on it. Also would make any future spoke replacement more of a hassle. Here's what Jobst Brandt has to say on it: Tied and Soldered Wheels by Jobst Brandt

fietsbob

I think Shimano has a Hub for Police Bikes .. its quieter .. sneak up on the Suspects that way..

I saw the recently referred to Efnoe Site , showing a Roller clutch freehhub for quiet advances ..

Philly Tandem

It's easy to keep the noise down on a loud cassette hub: just don't stop pedaling! (Or get yourself a fixie...)

fietsbob

yes Officer ... hands in the air, don't shoot!!!

Tourist in MSN

A good Shimano steel axle freehub is good enough. I use M760 (non-disc) variety on one touring bike and M752 (also non-disc) on another touring bike, but you said you want disc so I can't recommend a specific hub.

Do NOT tie and solder. Break a spoke, the remnants are soldered in, making a simple repair complex. Threading in a new spoke later is also more difficult. I think you should find a different wheel builder that is a bit more mainstream.

Agree. I do not know if Phil as a company would even exist if they did not have a bunch of bent axles as competition. I have bent several 120mm spaced non-Phil axles.

MassiveD

I actually haven't used the Phil Cassette hub, since I bought the White and the Rohloff at the time. Their instructions indicate that you need to press in the bearings, which is not consistent with what you or others report, is there one series where you do and others that you don't? To me the main issue is to get a wheel that won't break in the first place, which is where these things excel. If I wanted in field repair I would take the Shimano, or the DT since they have loose bearing, those are a snap to play with. Who really carries extra cartridges, maybe if someone actually cycles the Darian Gap. The expectation with super hubs is that you will get 10 of Ks of them and never have to touch them, for road uses.

I didn't neglect to mention them, they are well known. There are at least 3 simple solutions to spoke switching, as you know. And to boot, I am only interested in the Phil hub, with extra spokes, if I go freewheel, and it is unlikely that will break a spoke. I don't break spokes and don't seem to have problems with freewheels.

There are tools for in field freewheel changes if you want to go that route. It is routine to spend some cycling features on lighter weight gear, like the guys who pick up problems with carbon forks but think it is worth it. Nice, light, and bombproof Phil hubs are just another choice. The only reason they get the gears, so to speak, is that there is a certain characteristic human reaction that can't rationally compare things if one is old and the other is new. Useable electricity is more recent and awesome, but fire is still cool too.

No you don't. Even if you did you have other parts, though I will give you the consistency reward that you deserve for also using Octalink. Anyway, isn't touring about meeting people, what better people to meet than those with big wrenches.

I just looked at the spokes when building out the White M16 and sorta gulped the angles are crazy. It does look to me like something I might want if I was racing MTBs and there was some reason for it, but I do worry that I may learn what all the rest of you slick folks already know about breaking spokes, now that I have this upgrade. What you can say is Phil specifically chooses spoke angles on his touring hubs with touring cyclists in mind. Whatever the specifics of the calculations may be.



Oh yeah, people make all kinds of looney choice. Shift systems developed back when we had 1/3rd the gears, or a sixth. If I am taking all the crap that comes with a lot of gears, and the list is very long, I actually want to use them. Sure you could get a machine *** and then buy belts with 5 rounds in them, but it seems a little limiting. I know one doesn't need STI, and that a lot of people prefer other systems, my point was that as far as cost prottest is concerned, really exploiting the full, and reasonable advantage of a 27 speed say, is a job for STI, or brifters, whatever we are supposed to call them. I like those systems actually, I am just saying they aren't cheap.



I am talking the shells, I may have mispoke. There are lots of opposing point of view on that. One problem about talking about Shimano is that it is a never ending moving target. I have no idea what they offer, or how good it is. I have no way of knowing because it doesn't stay around long enough for an endurance test like touring to be dealt with. Good business plan, and probably makes lots of racers happy. Meanwhile Phil freewheel stuff has been around in much the same form since the 70s. People can say whatever they want about shimano, because it is almost impossible to call them on it, it is out of the shops by the time you might want to follow their advice.

That doesn't impress me, I am sure the clothing at the goodwill is in fine useable shape too. We are talking high end uses here, the stuff you see probably breaks down because people chained it outside, or maybe racing type uses. That isn't the drill for super hubs.

The real issue is that few people actually run their gear long enough for any of this to mater, but just as there are thousands of twerps in racing costumes with fake ads on them, there are tourist who want ultimate gear, and some of them do actually get one great bike and keep it forever. So they are entitled to buy their version of a high end car or watch.

Again you are off topic, which is OK, but my statement is that Phil is the key hub, no reason to make another decison if you want freewheels, for touring. OP didn't ask for a review of world freewheel problems, the design fix for freewheel problems was pretty simple, and we didn't need to go where we did.

Personally I still ride a bike, my current only functoning bike, and it is from the freewheel age, it just keeps going the problems are largely a fiction if you run good, or super gear, and run the bike with any regard at all. I'm a big dude, again, so the bike gets a beating, and I don't seem to break parts. It is almost getting a little embarassing. I think we live in a disposable cuslture. If I break something I fix it. Not the most practical way to be any more, but it does teach you not to thrash stuff just because you can.

cyccommute 

Phil Wood and White Industry hubs are louder than Shimano hubs but the hub you are thinking about is the Chris King. They are really loud.

cyccommute 

I've noticed that Phil Wood no longer gives instructions on bearing removal in their maintenance section but when I bought my hubs (2006), they gave complete instructions on how to remove the bearings in both the front and rear hub. Both are trivial and need no tools other than the hub. I have taken my rear hub apart once and removal of the bearings was trivial.

Yes, the idea is that you have hubs that don't need a lot of tending and they last for a very long time but parts fail occasionally. I've had to replace a cartridge bearing that started to seize on another brand of hub and the bearings are readily available if you have cars and auto parts stores anywhere nearby.

The downsides of freewheels may be known to you but for many they are as mysterious as cottered cranksets. Freewheels are old technology and many may not be that familiar with them.

As for replacing a spoke I know of a few methods but I wouldn't necessarily call them "simple" and I'm not sure that they are the same as you are thinking of.

None of the field freewheel methods I've tried have work all that well. I still have a tool that you can (supposedly) use on your top tube to take a freewheel off. It never worked. Cassette lockring removal tools work much better.


Huh? What does "Octalink" have to do with it?

Shimano's hubs as a total unit aren't particularly bad nor delicate either. They aren't particularly exciting but they aren't going to fail suddenly. Even their lower end stuff is very durable and easy to get parts for. And their hub designs haven't really changed since the mid90s when 9 speed stuff was introduced.



You can use any gearing system you like. But you really can't say that the freehub is a "bad" system when compared to freewheels. I have no warm nostalgic feels about freewheels having had my share of failed freewheels and bent or broken axles. I've had Shimano cassette hubs that have lasted through 10 years of hard year long off-road riding without a single issue. They are durable.

I'm off topic Freewheel hubs have an axle bending and breaking problem. The inner bearings are just too far inboard (about half way to the center of the hub) to do the job. Phil Wood axles are good but the freewheel design is still a poor one.

And Flog00 didn't ask about freewheel hubs at all. Talk about being "off topic".

And the rest of us just hang bikes on the wall as objet d'art? All of my bikes and the parts that hang on them are chosen for durability and functionality. Most people would say the same. I doubt you'll find too many people who "trash stuff just because [they] can".

GamblerGORD53

Hey this is the touring section. Only a ROHLOFF 14 will do, mine is 32H with 14g DT. 48/16T
Not just me out here. I met a 60+ guy like me in Hanoi. In 9 months rode almost the whole way from Holland. He passed on the Kyber (?) Pass between Kaz and Chengdu. Rohloff and rubber belt even. Another 30s guy had one on a LHT. The locals all had MTBs. They were no match for my Rohloff on a good road.

I was the only one riding UP 3/4 of Vietnam into the wind. All the way from Hoi An to Guiyang China. Malaria pills were making me sick at the start. Lots of mud splatter, rough construction, sharp gravel and 30 miles of total quagmire slowing cars to 3 mph. A few bus rides with my bike buried in luggage, no problem. Zero broken spokes, SA FDD front 13g , and flats on my Schwalbe M Plus. My totally overworked fork did break twice, no fall ha. My bike is a crazy 130+ lbs. That = nun + Staehpj1 + cyco bikes together. I'm 165 lbs now, lost 10 I think. One day I had 7 bottles of OJ, 4 of water and 13 snickers bars. Some days were 84 miles all hilly. I did 98.5 on the only no headwind day.

It did get to a point in China where it just became easier to walk up some of the endless stupidly steep village hills. So did a young local touring on a loaded MTB. 3 days in a row I had to go miles up 10% hills on quagmire and it was 2c and freezing to the front spokes and fender. The only school kids keeping up had e-bikes ha, saw them everyday in Vietnam.

1000 miles in HCM and 2000 since. 2750 before I left home. I have a Sturmey Archer cog welded to the Rohloff 13T. awesome.

Yan 

I'd go Shimano. Phil and White offer negligible benefit for the increased price.

surfjimc

Just like for every other bike component, the two camps always form, one who likes the best of the best, and the other that likes what will do for the right price. Both have their merits.
I tour and commute daily on Shimano XT hubs. 2.5 years on this set without issue, and this is the newer version that has had constant complaints on this site. I keep them adjusted and lubed, so they should last quite a while.
On the other hand, on my mountain bike and tandem, I have White Industries hubs from the first two years they were in business. That makes them close to 25 years old. I have never had an issue with them and have never even had to think about them in terms of replacement. That is not true of any Shimano product that I have owned. Shimano has a lifespan, and it isn't anywhere near White Industry"s or Phil's. That says a lot. I know I will have to replace the touring/commuting hubs I have now, but not the Whites. I am sure that is the same with Phils. So the real question seems to be "Should I pay more now, or later?" Both work in the short run of 3-5 years.
All that said, a set of Phils for my touring bike is on the bucket list, but probably won't happen anytime soon.

LeeG

Shouldn't someone be making boutique hubs even fancier than Phil, White, etc. so we can argue their merits?

dwmckee

Phil hubs are wonderful and I own two sets (one on a tandem). The are not worth the extra expense though, but if budget is not tight they just feel and sound good to ride. I love them but cannot sat the are worth the extra cash. I have worn out a set of bearings though and they were easily replaced. The same hub eventually wore out the ratchet ring and I sent the whole wheel back to Phil where they machined out the ratchet and installed a new one. That felt much better than tossing the hub and rebuilding the wheel. I am willing to pay the extra cash for Phil bling. I love the sound of the pawls and I have to say that the solid and confident feel of the hub is a really nice thing! I NEVER worry about anything concerning the Phil hubs and feel good about employing a fellow American machinist.

nickw

I've always been a loyal fan of CK and PW, but recently bought a second hand WI rear hub. I really like the design and serviceability of them. The pawl and spring design is super cool and very easy to replace if needed.

N