Touring bike, small and light?
02-17-19, 12:13 PM
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Touring bike, small and light?
My wife has an '85 Miyata 210 that she uses for commuting when she needs to carry stuff. She loves the bike, but there's a problem, weight.
The bike isn't too heavy for a small tourer, maybe 25/6 lbs at the start, plus steel folding basket on the rack, plus aero bars, plus full size U lock on frame and we're looking at low thirties, maybe 32/33lbs.
Well, she is a petite lady and doesn't even get to the 120lb mark herself, so stopping and starting while keeping balanced has been an issue. In a word, she falls. I've watched her catch herself more than a few times, and hit the dirt more than once.
So the weight weenie touring build must commence, here's my question:
Is the frame an appreciable factor...?
My impulse is to find a 19" Cannondale ST and start from their, but I also realize that the basket and lock (mostly the lock) are the heaviest add ons.
But the Miyata 210 has never been a light weight either....
A) Put the Miyata on a diet
B) Canny ST build, (N+1)
C) You have a better idea I overlooked 👍
The bike isn't too heavy for a small tourer, maybe 25/6 lbs at the start, plus steel folding basket on the rack, plus aero bars, plus full size U lock on frame and we're looking at low thirties, maybe 32/33lbs.
Well, she is a petite lady and doesn't even get to the 120lb mark herself, so stopping and starting while keeping balanced has been an issue. In a word, she falls. I've watched her catch herself more than a few times, and hit the dirt more than once.
So the weight weenie touring build must commence, here's my question:
Is the frame an appreciable factor...?
My impulse is to find a 19" Cannondale ST and start from their, but I also realize that the basket and lock (mostly the lock) are the heaviest add ons.
But the Miyata 210 has never been a light weight either....
A) Put the Miyata on a diet
B) Canny ST build, (N+1)
C) You have a better idea I overlooked 👍
02-17-19, 12:24 PM
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Personally, I'd probably lean toward upgrading the frame to something lighter. Do you want to go aluminum with the C'dale or maybe find a higher level Miyata or other steel tourer. If you're still using the basket/racks it would seem a lighter frame and/or wheels will make the biggest difference.
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02-17-19, 12:28 PM
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Cannondale was my thought as in my size it's shockingly light, heft an '84 Trek 520, then heft an '86 ST500 and whoa!
02-17-19, 12:30 PM
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At the mininum get rid of the U Lock. An Otto lock plus 1 or 2 small cable extensions will be plenty for tour and still weigh a lot less than the U.
The difference between that Miyata frame and a light Cannondale or similar could be 2-3 pounds. Not a huge amount but it is a big chunk if you are trying to shave weight.
How much stuff does she carry? Aluminum racks if the load isn't huge would save a lot of weight. You could also look at bikepacking frame bags from Blackburn and Ortlieb, etc... and could eliminate 1 or both of the racks entirely depending on how much stuff she needs.
The difference between that Miyata frame and a light Cannondale or similar could be 2-3 pounds. Not a huge amount but it is a big chunk if you are trying to shave weight.
How much stuff does she carry? Aluminum racks if the load isn't huge would save a lot of weight. You could also look at bikepacking frame bags from Blackburn and Ortlieb, etc... and could eliminate 1 or both of the racks entirely depending on how much stuff she needs.
02-17-19, 12:35 PM
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The problem seems to be not so much the weight, but the center of gravity. A lighter frame will actually make it worse, i.e. higher.
02-17-19, 12:47 PM
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Low riders are also a great solution to top heavy touring and commuters.
I also prefer small panniers to steel foldouts, they usually cinch down to keep items tight to the frame and prevent load shifts
02-17-19, 01:11 PM
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If you can somehow mount a lock as low as possible on the bike, it will help keep the bike from feeling so heavy on standstill or low speeds. Problem with most lock holders sold by lock companies are they are mounted high up, just under the seat cluster..
I'm thinking, there must be a way to design a holder to install a lock like this......
("Bordo" folding lock, by ABUS)
......under the down tube with one end, just in front of the BB......
I think these folding locks are mostly narrower than 70mm, so they can clear the crankarms.
The lock holder design does have to consider clearing the derailleur cables going past it on the down tube.....
I'm thinking, there must be a way to design a holder to install a lock like this......
("Bordo" folding lock, by ABUS)
......under the down tube with one end, just in front of the BB......
I think these folding locks are mostly narrower than 70mm, so they can clear the crankarms.
The lock holder design does have to consider clearing the derailleur cables going past it on the down tube.....
Last edited by Chombi1; 02-17-19 at 01:16 PM.
02-17-19, 01:26 PM
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Rockymounts Carlito U-lock. 356g. Not the most robust lock (that would be the Kryptonite New York Fahgettaboudit Mini @ 1986g on the same scale), but far better than the Ottolock which was cut in 2 seconds with common snips on Youtube.
02-17-19, 01:40 PM
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High c of g is a good point, her frame is small the u lock only fits on the top tube.
She has a krypto mini she keeps on the Miyata 710, no problems with that bike, but also no racks and baskets etc. I bet her aero bars (time trial bars we added for comfort) also make the front end want to flop at stops
She has a krypto mini she keeps on the Miyata 710, no problems with that bike, but also no racks and baskets etc. I bet her aero bars (time trial bars we added for comfort) also make the front end want to flop at stops
Last edited by Chr0m0ly; 02-17-19 at 01:46 PM.
02-17-19, 01:46 PM
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I'm with the lower the CG tribe. Get the lowest hanging panniers you can find (or fabricate) and put the heavy stuff on the bottom.
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02-17-19, 01:52 PM
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02-17-19, 01:53 PM
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My first thought was high center of gravity too . What is she carrying ? If you can rig panniers down around the axles , that would be nice . Put the lock in the pannier .
02-17-19, 01:56 PM
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She carries food folders water bottle a layer and patch kit in a pannier, has a folding steel basket on the other side of the rear rack for groceries and then the lock on the tt
02-17-19, 01:57 PM
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I'm thinking a krypto Mini and front lowrider might be just the ticket?
02-17-19, 02:24 PM
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Lots of good suggestions already. I'd put the Miyata on a diet first. 210 is a reasonable bike for a commuter. Lose the wire basket if possible. There are collapsible pannier baskets, etc. Get the CG down. Lighter lock, yep. Or at least put it on a frame clip.
Why on earth does a commute bike have aero bars??? Get rid of them. Those things are inherently unsafe and unsuitable unless you are racing time trials. If it's a comfort thing, swap to upright bars.
If this is going to actually be used for touring, an upgrade is in order. A Miyata 1000 or Univega Specialissima would be appropriate. A Cannondale will weigh about the same with the same components, but the ride will be harsher. Bob Jackson sells their vintage style World Tour for a pretty good price if you can swing it. It is a great price for a semi custom bike.
Why on earth does a commute bike have aero bars??? Get rid of them. Those things are inherently unsafe and unsuitable unless you are racing time trials. If it's a comfort thing, swap to upright bars.
If this is going to actually be used for touring, an upgrade is in order. A Miyata 1000 or Univega Specialissima would be appropriate. A Cannondale will weigh about the same with the same components, but the ride will be harsher. Bob Jackson sells their vintage style World Tour for a pretty good price if you can swing it. It is a great price for a semi custom bike.
Last edited by Salamandrine; 02-17-19 at 02:31 PM.
02-17-19, 02:57 PM
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They do make wicker style baskets that are lighter than steel. My wife uses them, although they can be expensive.
Might want to look at better wheels for the 210 as well. I can't imagine the original equipment is the lightest.
Silly question, does your wife downshift when coming to a stop? Seemed to take my wife a long time to learn that and she was always having difficulty moving off from a standing start.
Might want to look at better wheels for the 210 as well. I can't imagine the original equipment is the lightest.
Silly question, does your wife downshift when coming to a stop? Seemed to take my wife a long time to learn that and she was always having difficulty moving off from a standing start.
02-17-19, 03:12 PM
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I doubt you're going to find a steel touring bike any lighter than 25 pounds. '86 Miyata 610 and 1000 both weigh 26.6 pounds according to the Miyata's catalog. Steel Touring bikes are not light. About all you can do is to try to use a lighter wheelset, but then again, to do so may compromise loaded-touring durability. Therefore, your best bet is to lower the CG as much as you can.
02-17-19, 03:15 PM
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I can't see how a C'dale would lose that much weight if this is one of the butted ones. I think it would more likely be in the range of a pound or less. I've mounted a U-lock on the bottom of the NDS CS before, but you need to really secure it and make sure it can't get caught in the spokes.
02-17-19, 03:33 PM
#20
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Tubus Fly rear rack, 356 grams. Shopper panniers, the kind that just lift off. When only one is needed only one is carried. If none are needed, none are carried.
At 120# your wife is not going to be having flat tires, not even when the panniers are loaded. Light wheels and some nice light Compass tires.
Spend some money on this. Whatever you spend it is less than hospital bills. And she'll ride the bike more and like the attention.
At 120# your wife is not going to be having flat tires, not even when the panniers are loaded. Light wheels and some nice light Compass tires.
Spend some money on this. Whatever you spend it is less than hospital bills. And she'll ride the bike more and like the attention.
02-17-19, 03:41 PM
#21
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A common misconception. Vintage touring bikes can be light, if you get a good one. It's all the junk people bolt on that weighs them down. An extra cm or two of chainstay doesn't add much weight. Typically, a touring bike would have been up-gauged one notch: ie, touring gauge 531, or Tange #2 instead of #1 . That only adds a few ounces. My '80s touring bike was based on a Univega Specialissima frame - same as Miyata 1000 - that I bolted mostly leftover racing parts onto. Came out like 8 oz heavier than my race bike. The Miyata 1000 catalog spec includes both racks and all accessories, stupid reflectors, etc.
This assumes comparable quality levels. Obviously, if you compare a $250 "touring bike" with a $3000 racing bike, there's going to be a difference.
Modern touring bikes like Surly and the like are certainly heavier. They are designed for both heavier people and heavier loads than people used to typically carry. No one had a laptop computer in 1979.
This assumes comparable quality levels. Obviously, if you compare a $250 "touring bike" with a $3000 racing bike, there's going to be a difference.
Modern touring bikes like Surly and the like are certainly heavier. They are designed for both heavier people and heavier loads than people used to typically carry. No one had a laptop computer in 1979.
02-17-19, 04:04 PM
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I used to have a 210. It was stable, but heavy. It went bye-bye.
I agree about the better steel frame, lower mounts - and possibly a size smaller frame. If controlling your bike at a stop, or while starting or stopping is "a thing", I suspect it's a bit too large.
My wife has an 1981 Miyata 1000. It's a couple pounds less than my 1984 210 was - though one size smaller.
Also - a basket for groceries? A trailer might be a better solution. Take it off when not grocery hauling.
I agree about the better steel frame, lower mounts - and possibly a size smaller frame. If controlling your bike at a stop, or while starting or stopping is "a thing", I suspect it's a bit too large.
My wife has an 1981 Miyata 1000. It's a couple pounds less than my 1984 210 was - though one size smaller.
Also - a basket for groceries? A trailer might be a better solution. Take it off when not grocery hauling.
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02-17-19, 04:10 PM
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02-17-19, 04:48 PM
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I knew someone would have a snarky retort. 
I was hoping someone out there used to go camping with an Osborne running CP/M or something. It wouldn't surprise me at all. Early computer nerds were a lot like early bike nerds. They had their own way of doing things, and they had beards.