brewguy20

Hello,

Interested in trying to build a frame. Looking for any good books before even considering trying before investing in any tools.

Thanks,

Jay

Scooper

Jay, one pretty complete and easily read text is The Paterek Manual by Tim Paterek. He also has DVDs available.

unterhausen

I second Scooper's recommendation. It's a bit eccentric, but what I have seen of other books doesn't impress me.

Andrew R Stewart 

There is a book out there which I have read that many express concerns about the frame building instructions. At one time I believe it was titled (or sub titled) "Cooking a bike in your kitchen". A number of years ago the author also had posted some vids to YouTubes. I believe the author was French Candian. I see, offered on EBay frequently, a book titled "Lugged Bicycle Frame Construction, A manual for the First Time Builder" Lugged Bicycle Frame Construction A Manual for The First Time Builder Build A 1442186305 | eBay I am not sure if this is the same book/author. But if you are interested in the book you might want to do some more research before spending the $.

I wonder where the OP is located. There are many people who can help out with hands on instruction all over the place (including a number of formal for pay classes). While learning many of the processes and methods of frame construction is not too hard via long distance (books, vids, text forums) some of the details and body motions (torch handling, file use as examples) are best taught in person to reduce acquiring poor methods at the start of your education. Doug Fattic has posted a lot on this topic, how to learn. Doing a forum search for his posts is where I would first start my reading. Andy (who has had 4 "teachers" over the years and still does less the best torch handling).

Scooper

Andy, I have the second edition of Marc-Andre Chimonas' Lugged Bicycle Frame Construction, A Manual for the First Time Builder, and it is a significant improvement over the first edition which I had previously bought. I see the third edition is out now and Amazon is selling it for $13.40. He describes construction of an inexpensive single use "jig" for tack brazing the main triangle and a rather primitive method of aligning and tack brazing the rear triangle, but I think it's probably worth the price just to get a feel for the steps involved.

I'm actually tempted to get a copy of the third edition to see what improvements he's made.

EDIT- Amazon links don't work. Search amazon.com for the titles.

Lugged Bicycle Frame Construction: Third Edition

He has written a separate book on building forks which I haven't read, but there are four decent reviews (1 five stars, 2 four stars, and 1 three stars).

Construction of Lugged Bicycle Forks

brewguy20

Thanks for all the responses. Will look into these books. I am in Massachusetts. I plan on doing a lot of research over the winter. I am mechanically inclined, have oxy-acetylene tanks.

Andrew R Stewart 

Well I'll glad that the author has responded to the reviews which I first read of a few years ago. I am always hesitant to pass along second hand info which is negative but felt compelled this time. Andy.

JohnDThompson 

There's also Richard Talbot's "Designing and Building Your Own Frameset," published in 1979 so it's a bit dated now and probably out of print. But it looks like Bob Hovey has a scanned pdf version available:


https://bhovey.com/Masi/Scans/Talbot/...20Frameset.pdf

brewguy20

I was at my LBS today asking him if I was crazy for wanting to build my own frame. He said no and pulled two copies of Talbot's book. Said they were going for around $300.00.

Scooper

I bought a new copy of the Talbot book several years ago before the price reached the stratosphere. It's a good book, but hardly $300 good.

Scooper

This order form for a special tenth anniversary commemorative edition signed by the author was tucked into my book. The price was $34.95 post paid. I should have ordered a couple dozen.

79pmooney

Thanks scooper. Dick Talbot was an NEBC clubmate in my racing days. I still have a set of steel Campy NR pedals that he rebuilt and sold to me for peanuts. He put 19,000 miles on them. I/the Mooney more than matched that. Didn't get to see his bike. That was post head-injury for me and what we talked of the year before was gone.

Ben

cjroot2004

Regarding the "Cooking a Bike in Your Kitchen," I believe that was Alain Sicard, of Cycles Sikar fame. I visited his place in Montreal back in Summer 2001: it was part of a larger "pilgrimage" of mine to learn a little of frame building. I also visited Cycles Ryffranck in Sherbrooke during that trip. I would stick to a more mainstream bike building book, like Talbot or Paterek. I have both, and prefer the Talbot. I have glanced over the Proteus book, but find it a little elementary.

C R

Andrew R Stewart 

Well I started with the Proteus book. (and by the way if you go online and find a scan of the book it's likely it's mine. I asked the Dr if I could offer their book to the masses and he said ok). By todays standards it is vastly simple and under detailed. But in the late 1970s it was the word to us budding builders. (and I won't refer to myself these days as a builder...) Remember there was no Interweb, YouTubes or forums back then. We couldn't look at photos of build sequences, see torch flames properly set, watch vids of brazing or filing methods. I seriously believe that if the interweb had never come to be (thank you Al Gore) the current fashion of up and coming builders would have not happened. After a poorly made frame or two most would have called it quits, not having neither feedback or an audience.

These days kids have it so easy. Why back when I was young we had to mine our ore then smelt it into lumps over a candle. All we had were our fingernails to scrape away the excess brass. I could go on but I have to go to trudge up hill to and from my school now. (with respect to the two old men in the park) Andy.

unterhausen

there is a current thread in Classic and Vintage about building a frame that probably should be subtitled, "kill it with fire," but it does show the steps involved.

Doug Fattic 

Don’t count me as a fan of Talbot’s book. Let me explain why because I am one that hates the many negative things written on the internet where disagreeing in a civil manor is not standard practice. However it would also be irresponsible for me to let some beginner think this book is worth today’s market price. I bought my copy in 1979 (I still have it) and hoped that it might be a supplement to the frame building classes I was teaching at the time. I realized then that it contained some serious errors and should not be used as a primary source of information. That said, some ideas of how to do things without professional tooling were reasonably clever. Somewhere in its index is a list of 60 professional frame builders in the USA at that time of which I was one. Many of them have passed or retired or now do something else.

This book is a essentially a documentary of how Talbot made his very 1st frame after consulting with some American builders in the late 70’s. That fact alone should be a caution to anyone seriously seeking the best knowledge. He was a writer not an experienced builder. When I wanted to learn how to build frames I convinced a master builder in Europe to teach me. I think anyone that wants to be really good understands that being taught by a master is the best way. And I continually make the argument that the trial and error frames made trying to figure it out on your own leaves a litter of lesser quality work that can damage reputations long after skills have improved.

Talbot's description of how to build a rear triangle is wrong. The problem was he used a sequence that requires accurate fixturing that does not translate over to simple tooling. There are many different ways to build a bicycle frame accurately but his rear triangle method is not one of them. It would only be by blind luck that a rear wheel would center with the procedures he used. There are other problems in the book but I am using this glaring example to show it should never be used as a primary source of information.

The book does contain some useful ideas even though some of what he wrote won’t work well. The problem is that someone new wouldn’t know what is okay and what to ignore. It is on my bucket list to turn my frame building class manual into a how-to-build-a-frame book (or series of books). I’ve spent hundreds of hours over the years writing and rewriting descriptions of all the details (especially brazing and filing) of how to make a frame in my class. That way if a student doesn’t take good notes he will have a decent reference to refer back to when he tries again by himself. The problem for me in writing such a book for the general public is that I believe the best way to learn is by hands on being taught by a master teacher/builder. This helps protect the integrity of the craft since there are no entry standards. I’m uncomfortable facilitating an inferior way. It is obvious that someone will think I’ll buy the book and fixtures instead of taking a class.

Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

unterhausen

it seems that writing a book after doing something once is all too common. My copy of Talbot was borrowed and never returned. I never really liked it much, but back then there was no info out there at all. Didn't it have a batch of pictures of fixtures? I have to get the remains of my '70s fixture out of my basement so it can be scrapped, and I'm not looking forward to it.

MassiveD

There are many activities that have a good book, or a lot off good books associated with them. Bike building does not seem to be one of them Paterek is reliable and sufficiently good versions of the book are online, including on his site. His videos are very good. They all share the same fault of being a little over complex in the methods described which are simply the way a machinist would approach the problems of framebuilding, rather than a fitter or a frame builder.

One of the basic problems with framebuilding at the hobby level is that the people who want to do it, either mostly want to do it as professionals, or in the manner of professionals. This is logical enough in that I might need 20 chairs, or 1000 flies for catching fish, but really only need a bike or two, so many people are thinking business from day one in framebuilding, though it might turn out cheaper if they didn't.

Another basic problem is that frame making requires some specialized tools, or some more cooperative tool owning local shops than I have ever run into. So again this tips things towards the professional approach, or the more complex solutions.

Another potential problem is that people toss around accuracy standards for frames that are hard to achieve scraping the ways of a mill or lathe, let alone on a frame, which ads to the load builders are assuming.

Another issue is that most bikes today are welded, as they should be. Good luck finding anything much on that in books or videos. Maybe someday Youtube will catch up.

At the end of the day, the professionalizing of what could be an interesting hobby has led to few books, or maybe the well known builders are just too busy. I personally think one can learn more about building from the internet than one can from books. But it isn't easy, and probably the Paterek videos are the best route, though welding is not covered.

unterhausen

I think the problem is that becoming a competent framebuilder is the kind of thing that really demands a teacher. And some experience. And $10000. Even then, $10000 is not enough buy you a professional setup and enough practice frames to be competent. We can argue over the exact number, but I think honest people will admit they have dumped approximately that much into framebuilding. I know I have.

8aaron8

I will second that $10,000 is a conservative estimate.

Davet

But one has to start somewhere, whether they are fulfilling a bucketlist item (that would be me) or are desiring to become an a accomplished professional frame builder.

There a so few opportunities today to learn or apprentice under a 'master'. Even attending a school like UBI and the like doesn't ensure anything. According to some 'masters', until the novice builder has built a certain number of frames, he shouldn't hang out his shingle. As much as I admire folks who make things, I think the framebuilding business is somewhat self-limiting.

Doug Fattic 

The problem of a professional writing a book so a hobbyist can build a frame is that they have to figure out how to do it with home made tooling. There is a big gap between the equipment a pro uses and what an amateur can afford. In reality they have to invent ways of making cheap workable tools.

Of course it is in my self interest to say this but the most practical way for a hobbyist to make themselves a frame is in a good framebuilding class. All the tools and instruction are available and – in my class anyway – you will end up with a professional quality frame that just fits a student’s requirements. I would define a professional quality frame as one that fits the rider and his purpose, is mitered accurately and brazed within the temperature window of the brazing material covering every place it should and no place it shouldn’t (clean shorelines), is aligned to within a millimeter with wheels centering within that range and is filed to look good. With proper instruction, achieving that goal is possible on the very 1st frame,