Electric speeders on the local MUP
#76
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I'm not deviating from the point at all--you were arguing that saying it shouldn't be allowed is somehow irrational. I gave you a rational argument for making its use on the path illegal.
I didn't say it was illegal, I'm saying it should be. I don't get the point of having a restricted mode that can be switched off, the only reason that mode exists is to exploit a legal loophole. Again, using your logic, a motorcycle with a "restricted mode" or even a small car with one should be allowed to operate slowly on the bike path. You've lost the plot on what a bike path is for--your vehicle can operate on the street in ways that human-powered bicycles cannot, so letting it on the bike path is inconsistent with the primary reason for having bike paths in the first place.
I didn't say it was illegal, I'm saying it should be. I don't get the point of having a restricted mode that can be switched off, the only reason that mode exists is to exploit a legal loophole. Again, using your logic, a motorcycle with a "restricted mode" or even a small car with one should be allowed to operate slowly on the bike path. You've lost the plot on what a bike path is for--your vehicle can operate on the street in ways that human-powered bicycles cannot, so letting it on the bike path is inconsistent with the primary reason for having bike paths in the first place.
You're wrong, you're gone. Good day to you, sir.
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I'm not deviating from the point at all--you were arguing that saying it shouldn't be allowed is somehow irrational. I gave you a rational argument for making its use on the path illegal.
I didn't say it was illegal, I'm saying it should be. I don't get the point of having a restricted mode that can be switched off, the only reason that mode exists is to exploit a legal loophole. Again, using your logic, a motorcycle with a "restricted mode" or even a small car with one should be allowed to operate slowly on the bike path. You've lost the plot on what a bike path is for--your vehicle can operate on the street in ways that human-powered bicycles cannot, so letting it on the bike path is inconsistent with the primary reason for having bike paths in the first place.
I didn't say it was illegal, I'm saying it should be. I don't get the point of having a restricted mode that can be switched off, the only reason that mode exists is to exploit a legal loophole. Again, using your logic, a motorcycle with a "restricted mode" or even a small car with one should be allowed to operate slowly on the bike path. You've lost the plot on what a bike path is for--your vehicle can operate on the street in ways that human-powered bicycles cannot, so letting it on the bike path is inconsistent with the primary reason for having bike paths in the first place.
Bike paths were created for a reason, and allowing something with a motor to use them essentially negates that reason.
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Semi-motorized bikes weak enough that in typical real-world operation they fit into existing usage in a way that doesn't stick out are probably okay; those that start to change the path dynamics in a way unfriendly to original unmotorized uses are definitely not.
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Somebody scolded me for riding this on the Minuteman. “THOSE AREN’T ALLOWED!”
At least nobody yelled at me for riding this.
Evidently lots of people have strong “opinions” about what belongs where.
Love the irony of someone yelling “get on the road.”
-mr. bill
At least nobody yelled at me for riding this.
Evidently lots of people have strong “opinions” about what belongs where.
Love the irony of someone yelling “get on the road.”
-mr. bill
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Your insistence to go down this line of questioning the law, given i'd literally win this argument in court, wouldn't be so ridiculous if you'd been as open to question the other side of the story. That being that the other cyclist was travelling at excessive speed on the MUP. But you're not interested in that, because it was someone riding a road bike, and therefore it doesn't fit your agenda.
You're wrong, you're gone. Good day to you, sir.
You're wrong, you're gone. Good day to you, sir.
you can apparently get away with the fake limiter in your jurisdiction. I'm sure there's others where you cannot.
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Somebody scolded me for riding this on the Minuteman. “THOSE AREN’T ALLOWED!”
At least nobody yelled at me for riding this.
Evidently lots of people have strong “opinions” about what belongs where.
Love the irony of someone yelling “get on the road.”
-mr. bill
At least nobody yelled at me for riding this.
Evidently lots of people have strong “opinions” about what belongs where.
Love the irony of someone yelling “get on the road.”
-mr. bill
I must say it takes exceptionally bad powers of observation to mistake someone on a kick scooter for a person on an e scooter.
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I figure if I invent the rolling resistance trainer I can make millions. Just need to get Strava on-board with the correction factor. Sure, you completed that segment at 12 mph; but what actually matters is that you did it into the equivalent drag of 24 mph!
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#85
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Why we ride e-bikes
All my e-bike cons in one video. See if you can spot them. BTW, be prepared to turn down the volume during the shrill parts.
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What's ironic about it?
And when you ride your kick scooter, so you generally ride in a straight line, or do you weave around a lot as you "kick"? Do you periodically look behind you to see who is approaching at a faster speed? Do you make way for those people?
A lot has to do with the volume of traffic, and the infrastructure being used. When areas become crowded with higher volumes of people moving, that is when it's essential to have an orderly flow of traffic. Too many variations in vehicle type will create significant difficulties in these situations.
A random e-scooter or electric skateboard in an uncrowded area isn't a big deal, but put them in amongst a bunch of people on non-assist bikes and it makes a mess of things.
And when you ride your kick scooter, so you generally ride in a straight line, or do you weave around a lot as you "kick"? Do you periodically look behind you to see who is approaching at a faster speed? Do you make way for those people?
A random e-scooter or electric skateboard in an uncrowded area isn't a big deal, but put them in amongst a bunch of people on non-assist bikes and it makes a mess of things.
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What's ironic about it?
And when you ride your kick scooter, so you generally ride in a straight line, or do you weave around a lot as you "kick"? Do you periodically look behind you to see who is approaching at a faster speed? Do you make way for those people?
A lot has to do with the volume of traffic, and the infrastructure being used. When areas become crowded with higher volumes of people moving, that is when it's essential to have an orderly flow of traffic. Too many variations in vehicle type will create significant difficulties in these situations.
A random e-scooter or electric skateboard in an uncrowded area isn't a big deal, but put them in amongst a bunch of people on non-assist bikes and it makes a mess of things.
And when you ride your kick scooter, so you generally ride in a straight line, or do you weave around a lot as you "kick"? Do you periodically look behind you to see who is approaching at a faster speed? Do you make way for those people?
A lot has to do with the volume of traffic, and the infrastructure being used. When areas become crowded with higher volumes of people moving, that is when it's essential to have an orderly flow of traffic. Too many variations in vehicle type will create significant difficulties in these situations.
A random e-scooter or electric skateboard in an uncrowded area isn't a big deal, but put them in amongst a bunch of people on non-assist bikes and it makes a mess of things.
The reason you announce your pass or ring a bell before passing is so people can give you room to pass or, at least, not suddenly dart in front of you. It's really not a big deal if you have to slow down or even stop a second or two before you can pass safely. It comes with the MUP territory.
I ride empty stretches of MUPs well into the 24 mph range regularly, but I'm always prepared to slow to a crawl when necessary. Almost literally the only time I ever feel my safety threatened on a MUP is when some damn fool cyclist crosses over into my lane because they refuse to slow down to wait for a safe pass.
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@mr_bill and I are frequent users of the Minuteman, which is a very, very crowded MUP. Those places where it is most crowded are also the places you're most likely to encounter children, skaters, people with walkers, whatever. If you can't deal with it occasionally becoming "disorderly", you just shouldn't use it.
The reason you announce your pass or ring a bell before passing is so people can give you room to pass or, at least, not suddenly dart in front of you. It's really not a big deal if you have to slow down or even stop a second or two before you can pass safely. It comes with the MUP territory.
I ride empty stretches of MUPs well into the 24 mph range regularly, but I'm always prepared to slow to a crawl when necessary. Almost literally the only time I ever feel my safety threatened on a MUP is when some damn fool cyclist crosses over into my lane because they refuse to slow down to wait for a safe pass.
The reason you announce your pass or ring a bell before passing is so people can give you room to pass or, at least, not suddenly dart in front of you. It's really not a big deal if you have to slow down or even stop a second or two before you can pass safely. It comes with the MUP territory.
I ride empty stretches of MUPs well into the 24 mph range regularly, but I'm always prepared to slow to a crawl when necessary. Almost literally the only time I ever feel my safety threatened on a MUP is when some damn fool cyclist crosses over into my lane because they refuse to slow down to wait for a safe pass.
Ringing a bell to alert someone to move over is inefficient, and it shouldn't be necessary. Do people in those European countries with efficient highway traffic patterns (think German, Italy...) dawdle in the left lane until someone comes up behind them, politely honks, and then move over? No, they don't. Or, at least, they aren't supposed to, and they will be rightly chastised for it.
If you are sharing a path, you have a responsibility to use the path in the most efficient way possible for all users. That means staying out of the way of faster traffic whenever possible, even if that traffic isn't present at the moment. If you have to ring your bell at someone to get them to yield, then that someone is doing something wrong.
You call someone a fool for crossing over into your lane, but what do you call the person that forced them there?
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Do you make way for those people?
Too many variations in vehicle type will create significant difficulties in these situations... A random e-scooter or electric skateboard in an uncrowded area isn't a big deal, but put them in amongst a bunch of people on non-assist bikes and it makes a mess of things.
Or in the reference to pedal bikes were you criticizing the faster-than-bike segment of the e-toys? While you do occasionally see them going fast, most of those have reasonable speeds within or below the median bike range (at least once the user has experience a wipeout), it's really the electrified bike/motorcycle borderline cases that start falling into the alarming-to-others speed bracket.
Last edited by UniChris; 06-25-19 at 11:13 AM.
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People hear a bell or voice on their left, and they turn to their left to see who it is. You naturally veer to the side you're turning. This happens especially with novice bike riders or e-scooter riders, but also with older walkers, joggers, any bladers/skaters etc. I don't think there's a solution: there will always be new MUP users who are new to hearing "on your left," and they turn to the left, and step to the left, before their brain processes the words. It seems that we just have to expect this behavior.
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This could be "target fixation." I learned about this in motorcycle training: when you panic, you tend to look at the thing you might hit, and your body naturally steers where you are looking. To avoid it, you learn to "look where you want to go" and do _not_ look at the thing you're worried about hitting.
#92
☢
People hear a bell or voice on their left, and they turn to their left to see who it is. You naturally veer to the side you're turning. This happens especially with novice bike riders or e-scooter riders, but also with older walkers, joggers, any bladers/skaters etc. I don't think there's a solution: there will always be new MUP users who are new to hearing "on your left," and they turn to the left, and step to the left, before their brain processes the words. It seems that we just have to expect this behavior.
Nevertheless, you can't overwrite the law with your expectation. No matter how logical they may appear to you. A bell approach warning is required by law in many jurisdictions.
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It's not a question of being able to deal with something disorderly, it's about efficiency. Disorderly is not efficient, and inefficient is just an unnecessary waste of people's time and energy.
Ringing a bell to alert someone to move over is inefficient, and it shouldn't be necessary. Do people in those European countries with efficient highway traffic patterns (think German, Italy...) dawdle in the left lane until someone comes up behind them, politely honks, and then move over? No, they don't. Or, at least, they aren't supposed to, and they will be rightly chastised for it.
If you are sharing a path, you have a responsibility to use the path in the most efficient way possible for all users. That means staying out of the way of faster traffic whenever possible, even if that traffic isn't present at the moment. If you have to ring your bell at someone to get them to yield, then that someone is doing something wrong.
You call someone a fool for crossing over into your lane, but what do you call the person that forced them there?
Ringing a bell to alert someone to move over is inefficient, and it shouldn't be necessary. Do people in those European countries with efficient highway traffic patterns (think German, Italy...) dawdle in the left lane until someone comes up behind them, politely honks, and then move over? No, they don't. Or, at least, they aren't supposed to, and they will be rightly chastised for it.
If you are sharing a path, you have a responsibility to use the path in the most efficient way possible for all users. That means staying out of the way of faster traffic whenever possible, even if that traffic isn't present at the moment. If you have to ring your bell at someone to get them to yield, then that someone is doing something wrong.
You call someone a fool for crossing over into your lane, but what do you call the person that forced them there?
"Efficient" most definitely does not mean that the fastest riders get to ride fast all of the time. That's absurd. That leaves out the MU in MUP. Efficiency encompasses allowing a great number of participants in several different activities to do so safely and in a manner that maximizes the flow for the entire population of the path, not just the elite fast cyclists. Where I ride, the pedestrian legally always has the right of way and as a fast rider, I have to negotiate with that. The MUP is not at all efficient for fast riding, I think it's actually part of its charm. I've grown very adept at rapid acceleration from riding on MUPs. It's an extremely useful skill. I love to be able to ride at 24 mph, drop quickly to 5 mph then return to 24 all in a matter of a half mile or so. It's a fantastic workout, much better than I'd get going constant at 24 the entire distance.
I cannot think of a more inept analogy for the MUP than the autobahn. I really have no idea why you would even think to make that comparison. You show me a European highway where some of the drivers are 5 years old, and then I might concede you have a point.
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People hear a bell or voice on their left, and they turn to their left to see who it is. You naturally veer to the side you're turning. This happens especially with novice bike riders or e-scooter riders, but also with older walkers, joggers, any bladers/skaters etc. I don't think there's a solution: there will always be new MUP users who are new to hearing "on your left," and they turn to the left, and step to the left, before their brain processes the words. It seems that we just have to expect this behavior.
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Yet that's the most common reason to need to ask someone to move over on a MUP. Like it or not, MUPs are typically managed and funded as recreation infrastructure moreso than transit infrastructure, and things like being able to ride or walk two abreast is part of the appeal to many users - that's clear even as someone whose own 95% usage of them is solo.
(A lot of drivers in the US do however seem to consider habitually cruising in the left highway lane reasonable; kind of bothers me to be a passenger of someone doing this, but tends to be not worth commenting)
Last edited by UniChris; 06-25-19 at 01:41 PM.
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If you are sharing a path, you have a responsibility to use the path in the most efficient way possible for all users. That means staying out of the way of faster traffic whenever possible, even if that traffic isn't present at the moment. If you have to ring your bell at someone to get them to yield, then that someone is doing something wrong.
ALL YOUR SPACE BELONG TO US!
-mr. bill
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What is *PARTICULARLY* ironic, this is yet another if you are faster get out of my way thread.
Which has morphed if you are faster, if you are slower, get out of my way.
Nah, it's just get out of my way.
-mr. bill
Which has morphed if you are faster, if you are slower, get out of my way.
Nah, it's just get out of my way.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 06-25-19 at 01:46 PM.
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Or in the reference to pedal bikes were you criticizing the faster-than-bike segment of the e-toys? While you do occasionally see them going fast, most of those have reasonable speeds within or below the median bike range (at least once the user has experience a wipeout), it's really the electrified bike/motorcycle borderline cases that start falling into the alarming-to-others speed bracket.
People hear a bell or voice on their left, and they turn to their left to see who it is. You naturally veer to the side you're turning. This happens especially with novice bike riders or e-scooter riders, but also with older walkers, joggers, any bladers/skaters etc. I don't think there's a solution: there will always be new MUP users who are new to hearing "on your left," and they turn to the left, and step to the left, before their brain processes the words. It seems that we just have to expect this behavior.
"Efficient" most definitely does not mean that the fastest riders get to ride fast all of the time. That's absurd. That leaves out the MU in MUP. Efficiency encompasses allowing a great number of participants in several different activities to do so safely and in a manner that maximizes the flow for the entire population of the path, not just the elite fast cyclists. Where I ride, the pedestrian legally always has the right of way and as a fast rider, I have to negotiate with that. The MUP is not at all efficient for fast riding, I think it's actually part of its charm. I've grown very adept at rapid acceleration from riding on MUPs. It's an extremely useful skill. I love to be able to ride at 24 mph, drop quickly to 5 mph then return to 24 all in a matter of a half mile or so. It's a fantastic workout, much better than I'd get going constant at 24 the entire distance.
I cannot think of a more inept analogy for the MUP than the autobahn. I really have no idea why you would even think to make that comparison. You show me a European highway where some of the drivers are 5 years old, and then I might concede you have a point.
I cannot think of a more inept analogy for the MUP than the autobahn. I really have no idea why you would even think to make that comparison. You show me a European highway where some of the drivers are 5 years old, and then I might concede you have a point.
More typical, they're chatting with their friend in the other seat.
Yet that's the most common reason to need to ask someone to move over on a MUP. Like it or not, MUPs are typically managed and funded as recreation infrastructure moreso than transit infrastructure, and things like being able to ride or walk two abreast is part of the appeal to many users - that's clear even as someone whose own 95% usage of them is solo.
Yet that's the most common reason to need to ask someone to move over on a MUP. Like it or not, MUPs are typically managed and funded as recreation infrastructure moreso than transit infrastructure, and things like being able to ride or walk two abreast is part of the appeal to many users - that's clear even as someone whose own 95% usage of them is solo.
You realize that your arguments are along those exact lines, no? Advocating for the most efficient use of a shared path is beneficial to everyone, no? Inefficient use implies that someone is operating in a way that puts their own needs ahead of those of the other users, no?
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When I ride on a path with my GF, she is riding a 1960's cruiser, so suffice to say we aren't going very fast. And yet I always check well behind us before pulling up next to her to talk, and constantly check for people approaching. It really isn't hard to do, and yet most people can't be bothered because they are selfish.
Seems "selifish" is more the person in a well above median speed bracket, who wants everyone else to run mirrors or a swivel head to anticipate their need, rather than have the courtesy to request accommodation.
Advocating for the most efficient use of a shared path is beneficial to everyone, no?
If you look at the enjoyment across the range of officially endorsed users, even limiting that to just bikes and walking, optimizing for fast cycling isn't really defensible. I've seen MUPs with 10 mph speed limits; even I find that low, and suspect it was enacted out of frustration with those doing more than twice that in close proximity to people walking. Our greenway just gained a hilly and itself contentious mandatory bike detour around a busy riverside area that had long been a point of mode conflict; and not just a peak summer hours detour, an 11 pm in snowy December one.
Inefficient use implies that someone is operating in a way that puts their own needs ahead of those of the other users, no?
I get it; having to ask someone to move every couple of minutes must be annoying. But so would be looking behind you every 20 seconds while taking a casual walk with your friend or family. And there's no small irony, in that it's the exact some annoyance drivers have with cyclists taking the lane.
Jogging along oblivious in your own little headphone isolated world with dog leash across the full trail? Yes, that's selfish. Bombing through without giving others any time to react to your announcements? That too.
Last edited by UniChris; 06-25-19 at 03:49 PM.