Rivendell Bike Works: "Black Reparations Pricing"
10-02-20, 04:12 PM
#102
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It’s a bit gimmicky. Anyone black or white or purple in the market for a Rivendell certainly doesn’t need any help. If I were black I would think a 10% bicycle discount to somehow help to makeup against hundreds of years of slavery and inequality is a huge insult. Rivendell would do more good by my making a contribution to the Black College fund or the likes.
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10-02-20, 04:15 PM
#103
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10-02-20, 04:32 PM
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I start Social Security next month so best I not chime in on the Socialism debate. As far as Rivendell Bikes and how they decide to conduct business is their decision wether I agree or not . I have not purchased from them because I usually buy new stuff from my LBS and vintage parts from the bay. I am lucky enough to have two bike shops that still cater to us vintage guys. I have had discussions with Grant via email about his time with Bridgestone and he is always forthcoming with whatever information he has. Joe. Joesvintageroadbikes.wordpress
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10-02-20, 06:09 PM
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Good for Grant.
10-02-20, 06:49 PM
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10-02-20, 06:57 PM
#107
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10-02-20, 07:01 PM
#108
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I start Social Security next month so best I not chime in on the Socialism debate. As far as Rivendell Bikes and how they decide to conduct business is their decision wether I agree or not . I have not purchased from them because I usually buy new stuff from my LBS and vintage parts from the bay. I am lucky enough to have two bike shops that still cater to us vintage guys. I have had discussions with Grant via email about his time with Bridgestone and he is always forthcoming with whatever information he has. Joe. Joesvintageroadbikes.wordpress
But, hey, now I'm enjoying my old copies of Ayn Rand, Austrian and Chicago School economics as unexpectedly ironic dark satire.
Well, I always did admire the unrealistic Utopian hopes of the Star Trek fictional future, even if they never quite explained how the heck their economy worked. But I still ain't wearing those pajamas. Especially the red tunics.
10-02-20, 07:07 PM
#109
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- Remarkably those that support this redistribution of wealth have no fund of their own set up to redistribute THEIR wealth to people with a skin color different than their own. We are all human, there are no biological races, I do not see skin color, I see a fellow human. It is time all of us do as well. I do have preference for bike brands. Does that make me a bad person?
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10-02-20, 07:10 PM
#110
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That also describes how families operate, but I've never heard anyone come out against families for being "socialist" enterprises.
10-02-20, 07:33 PM
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They'd all stare at me with bewilderment for a while, but I'd wait 'em out. Eventually, a little light would go off over someone's head, and the person would say, "You're a man." Then someone else would say, "You're white."
Then we'd start looking at the data: the econometric studies that compare earnings (by race and gender) while controlling for educational attainment and work experience and such -- which demonstrate that women and racial minorities systematically get paid less, for no apparent differences in skills and training. We'd look at a very well-done study which found that having a typically black name (Tamesha, or Tyrone) meant that you had to have about ten additional years of experience, other things equal, to have the same likelihood of getting called in for job interview as someone named Karen or Andrew. There's plenty of evidence of wage and employment discrimination in labor markets, and we understand pretty well why and how much of it is done by people who don't recognize that they're doing it. People who think that they're not racist.
So, again, I still don't know if reparations are the right solution. But I do know that in a basketball game, if a player gets fouled, she gets a free throw - and I've never heard anyone claim that that's an unfair policy. And as for the claims that this is "reverse discrimination" -- read the frickin' policy. White people aren't going to pay any more for their Rivendell bikes and gear than they were before, and they aren't going to have access to fewer Riv products. If you're against their policy, you are against their efforts to get more black people into riding, even though it won't hurt you a bit. Now, that seems racist.
10-02-20, 07:43 PM
#112
Senior Member
I'm mostly retired from it now...But when I used to teach Labor Economics to college students, we would do a section on labor market discrimination. I'd start by standing in front of the class and asking them, "In what way am I lucky in the labor market?" They'd give answers such as, "You're smart," "You went to college," etc. I'd just shake my head.
They'd all stare at me with bewilderment for a while, but I'd wait 'em out. Eventually, a little light would go off over someone's head, and the person would say, "You're a man." Then someone else would say, "You're white."
Then we'd start looking at the data: the econometric studies that compare earnings (by race and gender) while controlling for educational attainment and work experience and such -- which demonstrate that women and racial minorities systematically get paid less, for no apparent differences in skills and training. We'd look at a very well-done study which found that having a typically black name (Tamesha, or Tyrone) meant that you had to have about ten additional years of experience, other things equal, to have the same likelihood of getting called in for job interview as someone named Karen or Andrew. There's plenty of evidence of wage and employment discrimination in labor markets, and we understand pretty well why and how much of it is done by people who don't recognize that they're doing it. People who think that they're not racist.
So, again, I still don't know if reparations are the right solution. But I do know that in a basketball game, if a player gets fouled, she gets a free throw - and I've never heard anyone claim that that's an unfair policy. And as for the claims that this is "reverse discrimination" -- read the frickin' policy. White people aren't going to pay any more for their Rivendell bikes and gear than they were before, and they aren't going to have access to fewer Riv products. If you're against their policy, you are against their efforts to get more black people into riding, even though it won't hurt you a bit. Now, that seems racist.
They'd all stare at me with bewilderment for a while, but I'd wait 'em out. Eventually, a little light would go off over someone's head, and the person would say, "You're a man." Then someone else would say, "You're white."
Then we'd start looking at the data: the econometric studies that compare earnings (by race and gender) while controlling for educational attainment and work experience and such -- which demonstrate that women and racial minorities systematically get paid less, for no apparent differences in skills and training. We'd look at a very well-done study which found that having a typically black name (Tamesha, or Tyrone) meant that you had to have about ten additional years of experience, other things equal, to have the same likelihood of getting called in for job interview as someone named Karen or Andrew. There's plenty of evidence of wage and employment discrimination in labor markets, and we understand pretty well why and how much of it is done by people who don't recognize that they're doing it. People who think that they're not racist.
So, again, I still don't know if reparations are the right solution. But I do know that in a basketball game, if a player gets fouled, she gets a free throw - and I've never heard anyone claim that that's an unfair policy. And as for the claims that this is "reverse discrimination" -- read the frickin' policy. White people aren't going to pay any more for their Rivendell bikes and gear than they were before, and they aren't going to have access to fewer Riv products. If you're against their policy, you are against their efforts to get more black people into riding, even though it won't hurt you a bit. Now, that seems racist.
10-02-20, 07:49 PM
#113
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I don't think reparations are necessary at all. It is preposterous to think that monetary payments are going to do anything to "right the ship" at the root causes of unequal treatment. A hateful racist isn't going to magically go away just because we paid money to his victims.
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10-02-20, 08:06 PM
#114
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10-02-20, 08:08 PM
#115
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I'm happy to hear you don't see race. Unfortunately, everybody else does. Must be nice, sitting on your Unicorn, on the balcony of your flying Castle, looking down on us uncivilized humans. Saying that you don't see race is insulting to every person of color on the face of the earth. Race may be an artificial societal construct that tells you nothing about the person you're looking at, but that artificial construct gets people denied jobs, housing, opportunities and in the right situation, could get you killed. Nuff said?
10-02-20, 08:12 PM
#116
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Nope. What's next is we try and make sure that that black person has the same opportunity as you to pay xxx for a 2000sqft house. And that means taking steps to make sure that they are paid the same as you for doing the same work with the same work experience. It means that they are given the same loan terms (assuming same income, savings, and debt load) as you are instead of getting worse terms because they have a name that sounds black, or there previous address was in a predominately black neighborhood. It means trying to undo the harm of 400 years of systemic damage to a group of people.
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10-02-20, 08:27 PM
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From Rivendell:
"BRP applies to all income levels. Oprah, LeBron, Robert F. Smith..."
"We've dabbled in Reparations since July, 2018, when we offered a 45 percent discount to Black customers who shopped in person."
How are different prices based solely on the color of the buyers skin anything other than racist? Please explain.
"BRP applies to all income levels. Oprah, LeBron, Robert F. Smith..."
"We've dabbled in Reparations since July, 2018, when we offered a 45 percent discount to Black customers who shopped in person."
How are different prices based solely on the color of the buyers skin anything other than racist? Please explain.
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10-02-20, 08:49 PM
#119
Senior Member
Nope. What's next is we try and make sure that that black person has the same opportunity as you to pay xxx for a 2000sqft house. And that means taking steps to make sure that they are paid the same as you for doing the same work with the same work experience. It means that they are given the same loan terms (assuming same income, savings, and debt load) as you are instead of getting worse terms because they have a name that sounds black, or there previous address was in a predominately black neighborhood. It means trying to undo the harm of 400 years of systemic damage to a group of people.
10-02-20, 09:03 PM
#120
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10-02-20, 09:11 PM
#121
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From Rivendell:
"BRP applies to all income levels. Oprah, LeBron, Robert F. Smith..."
"We've dabbled in Reparations since July, 2018, when we offered a 45 percent discount to Black customers who shopped in person."
How are different prices based solely on the color of the buyers skin anything other than racist? Please explain.
"BRP applies to all income levels. Oprah, LeBron, Robert F. Smith..."
"We've dabbled in Reparations since July, 2018, when we offered a 45 percent discount to Black customers who shopped in person."
How are different prices based solely on the color of the buyers skin anything other than racist? Please explain.
Granted yes I don't know that assuming something about someone because of skin tone or other innate qualities about them is a good thing necessarily. However I don't think Rivendell was trying to do it in a bad way but there is not really an easy way to frame it in a way that is simple and doesn't sound kinda racially motivated.
I don't think that we are quite ready for a true egalitarian society and for so many people for so many years it has been so skewed and unequal that it is hard to level that out to equal. I don't know if going in an opposite direction is a good thing but certainly trying to give some people a little extra shake when they have gotten no shakes previously is not a wholly negative proposition.
The world is an odd place. People hate each other not because they are bad people who have done bad things but simply because of a tiny outer layer of skin pigment or gender or sexual orientation or something silly like that. If we truly need to hate people which is fine, we should hate them because they like SRAM front derailleurs or listen to Nickelback or think Episodes 1-3 were truly good and a great addition to Star Wars. You know the important stuff to hate people by. Who cares about what happened at birth that you couldn't control, what is most important is what happened after that.
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10-02-20, 09:16 PM
#122
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If you would rather just keep criticizing a policy that they are not actually following, then carry on.
10-02-20, 09:38 PM
#123
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Well it's 11:30 here on the east coast and time for me to retire for the evening. However it's only 8:30 on the west coast and it's a Friday night so anything can happen.
I'm going to close this up for the night and reopen it tomorrow because ... frankly ... I don't trust that this thread can make it through the night without moderation. Maybe it could, but I'm not willing to take the chance, I promise to open it back up in the morning.
Ciao!
I'm going to close this up for the night and reopen it tomorrow because ... frankly ... I don't trust that this thread can make it through the night without moderation. Maybe it could, but I'm not willing to take the chance, I promise to open it back up in the morning.
Ciao!
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10-03-20, 10:23 AM
#124
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Well it's 11:30 here on the east coast and time for me to retire for the evening. However it's only 8:30 on the west coast and it's a Friday night so anything can happen.
I'm going to close this up for the night and reopen it tomorrow because ... frankly ... I don't trust that this thread can make it through the night without moderation. Maybe it could, but I'm not willing to take the chance, I promise to open it back up in the morning.
Ciao!
I'm going to close this up for the night and reopen it tomorrow because ... frankly ... I don't trust that this thread can make it through the night without moderation. Maybe it could, but I'm not willing to take the chance, I promise to open it back up in the morning.
Ciao!
10-03-20, 10:53 AM
#125
Senior Member
"Saying that you don't see race is insulting to every person of color on the face of the earth. " This is a blanket statement spoken from emotion, not rationale. My ancestors were judged by their skin color, their looks, their customs. My parents raised me to approach life differently, to approach people the same way I see myself. Sure I have been called racist names, mocked, and excluded, however it did not stop me from rising above and succeeding. I guarantee am not the only person of color (I hate that term, but feel I must speak in your language construct to get my point across) who feels this way. It is time to trash the negative attitude toward others and life, and get on with living.
MLK is still banging on the coffin lid trying to get people to fully understand his message. Hearts are so hardened in this world.
MLK is still banging on the coffin lid trying to get people to fully understand his message. Hearts are so hardened in this world.