Need 7 speed chain help!!!
02-25-24, 08:25 PM
#26
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And you could be wrong if that was used with a rear-suspension bike or 1x. If compression is not accounted for, both would be in the wrong. You should be able to figure out the 1x for yourself. Small-small basically comes up with the same chain length as long as your rear derailleur b-screw is adjusted correctly and within the manufacturer's limits on derailleur capacity.
Also, at rest nearly all rear suspensions are at maximum extension, so the big-big is appropriate.
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02-25-24, 08:43 PM
#27
Full Member
Just the opposite. Sizing the chain at maximum extension gives you too much chain and risks of dropping the chain when compressed. You size the chain based on full compression.
02-26-24, 05:14 AM
#30
Senior Member
As I and multiple others have patiently explained to you multiple times, sizing a chain based on only small-small rings will damage the drivetrain if the procedure is inadvertently carried out with a derailleur that does not have sufficient capacity for the fitted gears. The small-small sizing procedure would only avoid damage if you assume the installed parts are correctly compatible. Any mechanic who works on unknown bikes doesn't have the luxury of that assumption.
You can take this as an opportunity to learn something new, or... not. I and others can put a cake in front of your face, but we can't force you to eat it.
For anyone else reading this thread, don't listen to this guy. You've been warned, so don't come back here complaining when something bad happens.
Last edited by Yan; 02-26-24 at 07:47 AM.
02-26-24, 08:07 AM
#31
Senior Member
Maybe I missed something. Does the OP have rear suspension? I don't have any bikes with suspension, and I've always sized my chains based on big/big plus a link. I'm usually pushing or slightly exceeding the published limits of the rear derailleur, and it's much more important (to me) to not destroy my derailleur/hanger/dropout than it is to worry about my chain having too much slack in the small/small gear..
02-26-24, 08:58 AM
#32
Full Member
Which you seem to insist upon.
Again, you are wrong. It is one of the many methods used to size a chain, and they all consider what is on the bike. Next, what do you think would happen if installed parts are not correctly "compatible" with a correctly sized chain? Would your dreaded damage happen when getting into the big-big combination? Hint: your worries never go away if the rear derailleur capacity is exceeded. Lastly, any mechanic who doesn't evaluate based on the components that are on the bike is not worth their salt. This seems to be something you don't know anything about.
Dido
Funny, Art's Cyclery and many others are just fine about it, yet you and two others here seem to insist that you know everything.
As I and multiple others have patiently explained to you multiple times, sizing a chain based on only small-small rings will damage the drivetrain if the procedure is inadvertently carried out with a derailleur that does not have sufficient capacity for the fitted gears. The small-small sizing procedure would only avoid damage if you assume the installed parts are correctly compatible. Any mechanic who works on unknown bikes doesn't have the luxury of that assumption.
Dido
Funny, Art's Cyclery and many others are just fine about it, yet you and two others here seem to insist that you know everything.
02-26-24, 09:44 AM
#33
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Madeupname Welcome to Bike Forums. You have received a lot of solid advice that has been thoroughly debated. Hopefully, you can glean the information you need from the posts. Do not hesitate to ask other questions if you are not sure and do not let the debate and bickering in the thread of who is right stop you participating in the thread.
To the members debating and arguing in the thread, please stop. We do not see how it is helping a new member get the information he wants or for that matter will ever want to post again in BF. Please note when we have new members and try to be more welcoming. Thank you.
To the members debating and arguing in the thread, please stop. We do not see how it is helping a new member get the information he wants or for that matter will ever want to post again in BF. Please note when we have new members and try to be more welcoming. Thank you.
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02-26-24, 11:06 AM
#34
Senior Member
New members should not be provided with terrible information that can destroy their drivetrain. That's not very welcoming.
If the chain is sized using the big-big method, no damage is possible. If you happened to have a derailleur with insufficient capacity, the worst that could possibly happen is that the derailleur would simply be unable to fully take up the slack when you shift from the big-big into the small-small gear. At that point you can easily address the problem.
This is a hell of a lot better than if you sized the chain using the incorrect small-small method, where your derailleur would snap and your derailleur hanger would be bent. If your frame happens to have a non replaceable hanger, your entire frame is potentially wrecked.
Something that is too large will simply be slack. No big deal, address the problem and move on. Something that is too small, on the other hand, will cause things to break. Too large vs too small, different consequences. See how that works? It's not a hard concept.
You seem to think you know better than everyone else, but do you know better than the manufacturers? All three major manufacturers, Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo technical documentation all indicate the large-large method as the correct procedure.
Shimano documentation specifying large-large method:
https://mtb.shimano.com/stories/determine-chain-length
Quote from Shimano: "If the chain is too short, your rear derailleur can suffer damage."
SRAM documentation specifying large-large method.
https://www.sram.com/globalassets/do...and-chains.pdf
Edit: found the Campag documentation too.
Campagnolo documentation specifying large-large method:
https://www.campagnolo.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-campagnoloLibrary/default/dw347f5c1d/pdf/035_2461_Technical%2520manual_13s_Ekar_chain_Campagnolo_Rev00_09_20%2520ENG.pdf
Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo vs you and Art's Cyclery. With all due respect to you and Art's Cyclery, but
This is a hell of a lot better than if you sized the chain using the incorrect small-small method, where your derailleur would snap and your derailleur hanger would be bent. If your frame happens to have a non replaceable hanger, your entire frame is potentially wrecked.
Something that is too large will simply be slack. No big deal, address the problem and move on. Something that is too small, on the other hand, will cause things to break. Too large vs too small, different consequences. See how that works? It's not a hard concept.
You seem to think you know better than everyone else, but do you know better than the manufacturers? All three major manufacturers, Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo technical documentation all indicate the large-large method as the correct procedure.
Shimano documentation specifying large-large method:
https://mtb.shimano.com/stories/determine-chain-length
Quote from Shimano: "If the chain is too short, your rear derailleur can suffer damage."
SRAM documentation specifying large-large method.
https://www.sram.com/globalassets/do...and-chains.pdf
Edit: found the Campag documentation too.
Campagnolo documentation specifying large-large method:
https://www.campagnolo.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-campagnoloLibrary/default/dw347f5c1d/pdf/035_2461_Technical%2520manual_13s_Ekar_chain_Campagnolo_Rev00_09_20%2520ENG.pdf
Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo vs you and Art's Cyclery. With all due respect to you and Art's Cyclery, but
Last edited by Yan; 02-26-24 at 11:25 AM.
02-26-24, 11:19 AM
#35
Full Member
If the chain is sized using the big-big method, no damage is possible. If you happened to have a derailleur with insufficient capacity, the worst that could possibly happen is that the derailleur would simply be unable to fully take up the slack when you shift from the big-big into the small-small gear. At that point you can easily address the problem.
This is a hell of a lot better than if you sized the chain using the incorrect small-small method, where your derailleur would snap and your derailleur hanger would be bent. If your frame happens to have a non replaceable hanger, your entire frame is potentially wrecked.
Something that is too large will simply be slack. No big deal, address the problem and move on. Something that is too small, on the other hand, will cause things to break. Too large vs too small, different consequences. See how that works? It's not a hard concept.
You seem to think you know better than everyone else, but do you know better than the manufacturers themselves? Both Shimano and SRAM technical documentation indicate the large-large method as the correct procedure.
Shimano documentation using large-large method:
https://mtb.shimano.com/stories/determine-chain-length
Quote from Shimano: "If the chain is too short, your rear derailleur can suffer damage. "
SRAM documentation using large-large method.
https://www.sram.com/globalassets/do...and-chains.pdf
This is a hell of a lot better than if you sized the chain using the incorrect small-small method, where your derailleur would snap and your derailleur hanger would be bent. If your frame happens to have a non replaceable hanger, your entire frame is potentially wrecked.
Something that is too large will simply be slack. No big deal, address the problem and move on. Something that is too small, on the other hand, will cause things to break. Too large vs too small, different consequences. See how that works? It's not a hard concept.
You seem to think you know better than everyone else, but do you know better than the manufacturers themselves? Both Shimano and SRAM technical documentation indicate the large-large method as the correct procedure.
Shimano documentation using large-large method:
https://mtb.shimano.com/stories/determine-chain-length
Quote from Shimano: "If the chain is too short, your rear derailleur can suffer damage. "
SRAM documentation using large-large method.
https://www.sram.com/globalassets/do...and-chains.pdf
02-26-24, 11:20 AM
#36
Senior Member
Comprehension isn't your strong suit?! It doesn't cover if the rear derailleur capacity is exceeded. Heck, by your logic using the exact number of links of the existing chain that came out of the factory to determine the replacement chain length is not appropriate. Stop with your silliness.
It seems that Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo disagree with you.
Pardon me for choosing them instead of you, a random nobody.
02-26-24, 11:30 AM
#37
Full Member
Says the random somebody who lacks reading comprehension. Try rereading the instructions and not cherry-picking what suits your unsupported position this time.
02-26-24, 11:32 AM
#38
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Comprehension isn't your strong suit?! It doesn't cover if the rear derailleur capacity is exceeded. Heck, by your logic using the exact number of links of the existing chain that came out of the factory to determine the replacement chain length is not appropriate. Stop with your silliness.
02-26-24, 11:33 AM
#39
Senior Member
"Unsupported position"??? It's only the position of all three major bike component manufacturers. Yes, VERY "unsupported".
Insulting others about reading comprehension is just juvenile.
You want to argue with me, ok. Now you're arguing against the manufacturer technical documentation. This is ridiculous.
Last edited by Yan; 02-26-24 at 11:41 AM.
02-26-24, 11:35 AM
#40
Full Member
02-26-24, 11:43 AM
#42
Full Member
The Shimano, SRAM, and Campag instructions don't mention your small-small method. There's no cherry picking. It's not possible to cherry pick if it's not mentioned at all. You know why they don't mention it? Because it's a terrible method that can damage bikes.
Insulting others about reading comprehension is just juvenile.
You want to argue with me, ok. Now you're arguing against the manufacturer technical documentation. This is ridiculous.
Insulting others about reading comprehension is just juvenile.
You want to argue with me, ok. Now you're arguing against the manufacturer technical documentation. This is ridiculous.
02-26-24, 11:48 AM
#44
Full Member
02-26-24, 11:49 AM
#45
Senior Member
Any technical documentation that disagrees with the godly genius of kcjc is a "fallacy".
Enough of this. Feel free to get in the last word if it soothes your angst about every manufacturer disagreeing with you. Peace out.
Last edited by Yan; 02-26-24 at 12:16 PM.
02-26-24, 12:02 PM
#46
Full Member
Today I learned that the Shimano, SRAM, and Campag tech docs are "fallacies".
Any technical documentation that disagrees with the godly genius of kcjc is a "fallacy".
Enough of this. Feel free to get in the last word if soothes your angst about every manufacturer disagreeing with you. Peace out.
Any technical documentation that disagrees with the godly genius of kcjc is a "fallacy".
Enough of this. Feel free to get in the last word if soothes your angst about every manufacturer disagreeing with you. Peace out.
02-26-24, 12:21 PM
#47
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Closed for moderation review.
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02-26-24, 12:26 PM
#48
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Both you guys leave the thread immediately. That’s kcjc and yan, do not post further in the thread.
Thread reopens in 15 minutes.
Thread reopens in 15 minutes.
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