Mercury71

I heard someone who was no doubt a Lance man describe Jan Ullrich as Augustus Gloop i.e. a little fat German who can't control his appetite and weight. In my opinion Jan would be as famous as Lance if he didn’t have the misfortune of being born at the same time as Lance.

Thoughts anyone??

chewa

I think Lance is very famous in the States and famous the world over for his TdF stuff, but I and a lot of others think that Jan is still the better all round cyclist.

Maybe even more remarkable by the fact that he seems to go on the Elvis diet over the winter yet is still top rate in season

geneman

Augustus never had legs like these ...

skydive69

Interesting that people would think he is a better all around cyclist in that TDF certainly tests all around talent, and he keeps getting his butt kicked, and will continue so to do, by LA. Of course one can argue the endless loop of "if this, if that...." You race what you brung as they say, and if he brings extra weight, that's the measure (no pun intended) of who and what he is.

Patriot

I would have to agree with the above. TDF is one of the most brutal, and most demanding all around races in existance. From flatland TT's, to climbing the mountains, Lance without a doubt has proven himself to be the best. So what if he doesn't waste his time with all the other races. TDF is where the men become legends.


Now, if only the doping thing could be put to rest. I think if they were doping as much as some say, they would have been caught by now, with all of the snooping going on. Just like Bonds, and the other Major Leaguers got nabbed.

brent_dube

Well, it's a totally different animal from a one day race.
Ullrich is probably more talented at those.
Though not as talented as Armstrong used to be.

dws5b

A few things we forget about LA: World champ in 93, won Uspro champ, won TDF stages, and won the Tour de pont among many other good results prior to cancer but the best comparison we have is head to head in a race they want more than any. LA 6 Jan 0. nuff said.

Applehead57

His record in the TDF is among the best.
He can ride with me anyday.

brent_dube

Ullrich won the Tour de France in 1997.

MacMan

Been following Le Tour long?

Aside from possibly LeMond's win, in the modern era it's the team, as much as anything else IMO, that makes the difference. What hincappie did that day on the cobbles was un-freaking believeable ... just one of many Postal TEAM exploits.

rich007

I like Jan, I respect him and I think he is one of the best cyclists in the world... But to say he's better all-arounder than Armstrong is a bit of a stretch:

Time Trialing: Armstrong (even though Jan can be sometimes better, but mostly close behind)

Uphill Time Trialing: Armstrong

Sprints: Armstrong (even though it may sound surprising to some, I think this is the biggest advantage for Armstrong. I don't think Jan can match his quick cadence, surprise sprinting)

Mountain stages: Armstrong, watt-for-watt based on weight, Jan cannot match Armstrong despite being very close on his best days...

'Classics' racing: About equal, lot depends on luck (maybe I'd give here advantage to Jan, just because of experience, I think he rode more Classics races than Lance)

What else??? Did I forget anything??? Your opinions may vary...

BTW, as much as TdF is a team-driven, Jan has in his T-Mobile (and his predecessor Telekom) equally talented and experienced team as Lance had with the USPS...

MacMan

If you're purely talking head-to-head, then it's 4-0. Ullrich didn't race in 1999 or 2002.

Do you have a "LANCE" tattoo?

Laggard

Lance has said several times that Jan is the more talented rider.

To me the difference between the two is a matter of drive and determination.

brent_dube

Pfft I don't think so.
Armstrong has been totally dominant in the time trials in his wins. Teams can't help there.
When USPS is pulling the field in a mountain stage, everyone gets the draft. Not just Armstrong. The difference is Armstrong is the one who has more in the tank after a long day of USPS pushing the pace. And he didn't have much help all the time, particularily in 1999 and 2000.

Indurain rarely had big help in the mountains. He dominated the TTs and still excelled in the mountains by following his rivals.
Pantani didn't exact have much of a team when he won.

Sure the team helps, in particular to give more options in tactics. But in the end, no great team can win the Tour without having the best rider in the race.

MacMan

Pfft. Good for you.

Gustaf

yay, another lance love fest.

brent_dube

Heh, you certainly know how to listen to reason.

MacMan

And this voice of reason ... you suppose it belongs to you?

DieselDan

I got to reply to a thread with a Charlie/Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory reference.

Jan did win the '97 TdF. Some are thinking he won by default, caught between two greats. He's also been German Road Race Champion.

Lance has never worn the Stars and Stripes as the USPRO champion.

JoeOxfordCT

Just a casual observation but I think Jan could use some more high cadence pedalling in the mountains.....
Not that I'm an expert but when you listen to Phil & Paul describe Jan's climbing style it's always about being seated pushing a big gear at a (relatively) slow cadence. I'm not saying we should expect him to stand & climb out of the saddle for extended periods like Lance, or Pantani but.......Lance learned the high cadence thing....wouldn't Jan benefit from this too ??

I also agree that Jan has certainly had great teams to support him too...no excuses there...
He's beaten Lance in a few time trials as well but have we ever really seen him attack ??? Push the pace yes but out & out attack ???

To me it seems the TDF will always be about climbing & time trialing....and avoiding the unexpected crashes, injuries, etc. The results of the first 9 or 10 stages, other than the time trials, almost never have any bearing on the final standings...

my 2 cents......

Gustaf

Thats like asking Roberto Heras to learn how to sprint like Petacchi. Not going to happen.

JoeOxfordCT

I don't mean that he has to totally change his style, just work the cadence thing a little....that's what Lance learned from Indurain supposedly when he had cancer and Miguel visited with Lance during some of the Ride for the Roses events....Miguel was a big guy like Jan who could climb...no ?

rich007

I thought Indurain was also a big gear pusher in the mountains??? Or, did I get this one wrong....

MacMan

Ullrich has also been Olympic champion.

HigherGround

With all due respect Dan, Lance won the USPRO Championships in 1993. That was the third leg of the Thrift Drug Triple Crown. Thrift Drug was offering a $1 million bonus to any rider who captured all three races in a series, culminating with the USPRO Championships. Lance won the first two races, and as such, was the only one elligible to win the million dollar prize. Despite being heavily marked, Lance rode away from a 4 man breakaway to win solo and claim the $1 million prize. It was compared to announcing that you were going to rob a bank the next day at 8 am, and still pulling it off any way. Keep in mind this was during his very first full season as a pro! (After the '92 Olympics, Lance had ridden as a pro for Motorola for a few months at the end of the season.)

That same year, Lance went on to win a stage of the Tour de France at the age of 21 (?), during his first attempt at the race. The photo of him making his victory salute while wearing the National Champion's jersey always reminded me of an Ed Grimley pose (from Saturday Night Live). I think it was the 8th stage, finishing in Verdun. Lance followed up by winning the World Championship Road Race ahead of Miguel Indurain. Not bad for a rookie debut season!