Armstrong weasles out of the Giro
03-17-05, 09:54 PM
#126
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I don't know if people here are really anti-Lance, or if they just know they'll get 6 pages of replies in a day or two. Look, if the only proof you've got that the guy's doping is that "everyone does it", then he's STILL the best.
03-18-05, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by velocipedio
i think the word you're looking for is "ludicrous."
and, it's worth pointing out that the presumtion of innocence applies only to criminal cases tried under common law [as in britain, australia, canada, etc.]. armstrong is not before a criminal court; we are discussing the possibility that he is a doper. consequently, whether or not he is presumed to be innocent in a criminal proceeding is irrelevant.
and, it's worth pointing out that the presumtion of innocence applies only to criminal cases tried under common law [as in britain, australia, canada, etc.]. armstrong is not before a criminal court; we are discussing the possibility that he is a doper. consequently, whether or not he is presumed to be innocent in a criminal proceeding is irrelevant.
You wouldn't understand.
Doping, BTW, IS in fact, a criminal offense, for a variety of reason, in a variety of coutries. In Italy, where Armstrong is supposedly "weasling" away from a cycling confrontation, it's called "Sporting Fraud". So in fact, the people that are accusing Armstrong of doping are accusing him of criminal behavior. So depending on the venue presumptions are EXTREMELY relevant. Pardon me for taking mild issue with branding someone a criminal.
BTW...for all those people wishing to confront a "weaseling" Armstrong on the playing field, He's usually racing in France during a June/July time period. It's not like he's been hiding from competition.
But you're right in saying he's not before a criminal court. He's in front of the court of "My guess is better than yours because I say it is even though I have no proof whatsoever other than my own biased opinion derived from a loose collection of facts and some circular logic".
Forgive me if I question the ethics and standards behind the jurisprudence of the court in question. HE MIGHT WELL BE DOPING. But by even the most minimilist standards of a 3rd grade mock trial, he'd be found innocent of such a charge today. Although if it was a panel of kindergardeners, perhaps a milk and cookies and skip the nap bribe MIGHT get you a conviction. To be sure I'd throw in a reading of "My Little Dog Spot". That always seems to seal the deal.
Lance is, in fact, a "hero" to many Americans. A measure of the man is the fact that the French even tolerate him and have been known to applaude politely when he wins. I don't really have heroes but I can say I have a lot of admiration for his discipline, work ethic, and determination. But much more so for his willingness to use his celebrity to raise enormous amounts of money and awareness to help with something that causes great suffering. But I'm sure there's people out there that are going to question the good he's done in that part of life too. Such is the human condition. If we can work up the rational to put a bullet in Ghandi or King, it's a child's afterthought to hammer a comparatively human Mr. Armstrong.
03-18-05, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by doctorSpoc
performance enhancing drugs... does everything have to be spelled out <shaking my head> cocaine will actually hurt your performance, not help it. it's banned for moral and safety reason not because it's going to improve performance.. you really gotta figure some of this stuff out yourself...
My goodness a public education can be a terrible burden these days....
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03-18-05, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by jbhowat
I dunno why everyone keep saying he's the best. Where was he in the UCI rankings. Sure hes very damn good, has some impressive stuff on his palmares but "best" is a really relative term in cycling. Is the guy with the #1 ProTour ranking the best? Is the fastest guy the best, etc, etc... Lance has admitted that at least Ullrich is a better cyclist than him - he just never gets it all together at the right time..
OK, the Tour is the measure of a rider. It is the Super Bowl. He has one the Super Bowl 6 times in a row.
Its funny how now so many dismiss the Tour. It is the hardest sporting event in the world. It don't matter if you only ride once a year. It is a test of human fortitude. Lance has a lot of that. I have never won a race because I was the fastest sprinter, or the best climber. The Tour is setup to find the rider who as a good grasp on all the areas of bike racing. So he might not be the "best" sprinter of climber but he is the "best" at winning the ultimate biking contest.
03-18-05, 08:48 AM
#130
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To get back to something relevant, Milan San Remo is tomorrow. The first monument of the year.
Go Hondo!
Go Hondo!
03-18-05, 09:21 AM
#131
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Originally Posted by Feltup
OK, the Tour is the measure of a rider. It is the Super Bowl. He has one the Super Bowl 6 times in a row.
there are a lot of races that measure the rider in different ways. armstrong has been the best tour de france racer for six years, but i doubt he could even finish paris-roubaix today, let alone finish in the top ten. and the giro? i seriously doubt he'd make the leader board there, either. the italians don't like time trials, and with so few itt's [is there one this year?] and no ttt's, he would not have the opportunity to make time. he's no sprinter, so you wouldn't see him at the front of milan-san remo, either.
no... armstrong is a specialist. he is a specialist at the biggest race, but don't delude yourself; that doesn't make him the best of the best. for that, frankly, i think you have to look at someone like cunego or bettini.
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03-18-05, 09:35 AM
#132
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diverkb, i think you're missing the point. this is not a trial. it is speculation. it is what people do.
we all make conclusions about the world based on the information we have. much of that information is circumstantial. it would not be enough to convict somone and i would certainly hope that a decision on armstrong's future would be based on something more than circumstantial evidence.
however, we are not deciding his fate. we are deciding -- for ourselves -- if he lives up to the superman-boyscout image promoted by his marketing and pr department. i have enough information to reasonably conclude that he does not, and that the image is a sham [just as all manufactured media images are].
he is clean like britney spears before her image change was a virgin saint. i did not personally inspect her hymen, and i do not know anyone who did and published the results, but the context and circumstance certainly indicated that her image was bogus.
i want you to understand something: i do not have anything against armstrong personally. i have never met the man and, from what i can tell from his interviews, he seems to be someone i could probably respect at a personal level. professionally, i admire his accomplishments. however, i find the puiblic image and -- more than that -- the cult of personality around him to be offensive.
the image and the cult are bs. i hate bs.
we all make conclusions about the world based on the information we have. much of that information is circumstantial. it would not be enough to convict somone and i would certainly hope that a decision on armstrong's future would be based on something more than circumstantial evidence.
however, we are not deciding his fate. we are deciding -- for ourselves -- if he lives up to the superman-boyscout image promoted by his marketing and pr department. i have enough information to reasonably conclude that he does not, and that the image is a sham [just as all manufactured media images are].
he is clean like britney spears before her image change was a virgin saint. i did not personally inspect her hymen, and i do not know anyone who did and published the results, but the context and circumstance certainly indicated that her image was bogus.
i want you to understand something: i do not have anything against armstrong personally. i have never met the man and, from what i can tell from his interviews, he seems to be someone i could probably respect at a personal level. professionally, i admire his accomplishments. however, i find the puiblic image and -- more than that -- the cult of personality around him to be offensive.
the image and the cult are bs. i hate bs.
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03-18-05, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by velocipedio
not quite. you can't get into the superbowl by sitting out the whole season.
there are a lot of races that measure the rider in different ways. armstrong has been the best tour de france racer for six years, but i doubt he could even finish paris-roubaix today, let alone finish in the top ten. and the giro? i seriously doubt he'd make the leader board there, either. the italians don't like time trials, and with so few itt's [is there one this year?] and no ttt's, he would not have the opportunity to make time. he's no sprinter, so you wouldn't see him at the front of milan-san remo, either.
no... armstrong is a specialist. he is a specialist at the biggest race, but don't delude yourself; that doesn't make him the best of the best. for that, frankly, i think you have to look at someone like cunego or bettini.
there are a lot of races that measure the rider in different ways. armstrong has been the best tour de france racer for six years, but i doubt he could even finish paris-roubaix today, let alone finish in the top ten. and the giro? i seriously doubt he'd make the leader board there, either. the italians don't like time trials, and with so few itt's [is there one this year?] and no ttt's, he would not have the opportunity to make time. he's no sprinter, so you wouldn't see him at the front of milan-san remo, either.
no... armstrong is a specialist. he is a specialist at the biggest race, but don't delude yourself; that doesn't make him the best of the best. for that, frankly, i think you have to look at someone like cunego or bettini.
03-18-05, 10:20 AM
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Several of the folks posting in this thread would have a tough time living in Texas. They seem almost insane with envy and resistment over Lance Armstrong's success. And, their response is to spread lies about him. In Texas, if you walked up to a guy and you falsely accused him of being a cheater, he would knock you down. And you would deserve it.
The internet has good features and bad. One of the bad features is that it allows cowards to spread lies about someone and damage their reputation, and face no consequences. What is said is to find out just how many of these sorts of slimeballs hang out in "Road Bike Racing".
The facts are clear: Lance is the most tested racer of his era. For the past five or six years, European police and reporters have tracked down every rumor concerning him. When there were none to track down, they invented some. His rooms are searched, with and without warrants. His team vehicles are searched. Phony "criminal" investigations are launched.
And, over and over, the fact remains, Lance races clean. And, the fact remains, according to David Millar, and other "inside" sources, and the list of arrests and suspensions over the past five years, doping remains a standard practice among Lance's competition. And, what we have seen in THIS thread, are small, petty people making excuses for the wide-spread cheating among the Peloton while lying about the ONE person who has proven it is possible to race clean and win clean.
Ya want to lie about Lance? Do it on the internet. It would not be smart to stand on a street in Austin spewing filthy garbage about Lance. Your health insurance won't cover the bills.
The internet has good features and bad. One of the bad features is that it allows cowards to spread lies about someone and damage their reputation, and face no consequences. What is said is to find out just how many of these sorts of slimeballs hang out in "Road Bike Racing".
The facts are clear: Lance is the most tested racer of his era. For the past five or six years, European police and reporters have tracked down every rumor concerning him. When there were none to track down, they invented some. His rooms are searched, with and without warrants. His team vehicles are searched. Phony "criminal" investigations are launched.
And, over and over, the fact remains, Lance races clean. And, the fact remains, according to David Millar, and other "inside" sources, and the list of arrests and suspensions over the past five years, doping remains a standard practice among Lance's competition. And, what we have seen in THIS thread, are small, petty people making excuses for the wide-spread cheating among the Peloton while lying about the ONE person who has proven it is possible to race clean and win clean.
Ya want to lie about Lance? Do it on the internet. It would not be smart to stand on a street in Austin spewing filthy garbage about Lance. Your health insurance won't cover the bills.
03-18-05, 10:21 AM
#135
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Originally Posted by velocipedio
the image and the cult are bs. i hate bs.
You have no clue. The Italians, the Germans, and the French WORSHIP there riders. They are CULTS. Is that a bad thing? No because they love cycling. Lance has that same kind of following in the states so it is bs. I am just glad cycling has developed some sort of following in the states. No matter how fake and short lived you think it will be. It has influenced some kids to persuse a sport outside the American mainstream.
03-18-05, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Feltup
You said he was the best tour rider. I said he wasn't the fastest, you said the same. Hmm...........I'm deluded?
as for the cult of personality; considering that i don't live in europe and am only sporadically exposed to european media, i really have no comment on what the european media do. i can only respond to the environment i experience. in this environment, the lance armstrong marketing and pr industry has created a cult of personality that i find opressive and offensive. it is entirely possible that, if i lived in italy, i would respond the same way to the mario cipollini cult. howevevr, i do not live in italy.
moreover, it's worth noting that the american media are hegemonic. the myths of american media are, in effect, the myths of the world, while the italian media are regionally isolated. i suppose one could write a treatise on the construction of lance armstrong, the great american hero, as a hegemonic cultural export, but for the sake of this forum, we can simply speculate and debate. suffice it to say that i believe that the influence of the lance cult, by virtue of the american media hegemony, is far more pervasive and influential than regional cults of personality.
as i said before: i don't know the man. i respect his accomplishments. but i will not buy into the cult of lance. i won't even call him "lance," because i don't delude myself that i know him personally.
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03-18-05, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by velocipedio
not quite. you can't get into the superbowl by sitting out the whole season.
I'd be curious how many hours of racing Armstrong does outside of the Tour.
03-18-05, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by doctorSpoc
Lance had no reason tactically to chase down Simeoni but you can't blame someone for being greedy for another win (like Merckx) or just stupid tactically.. and it's really imposible to prove otherwise. but if he says in front of witnesses that he was doing it because he has a personal vendata against the other rider then he should have been punished for that both by the race commissaire and the italian legal system for trying to intimidate a witness in the ciminal case against Ferrari.
03-18-05, 02:46 PM
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The mindset that everyone is doping reminds me of an argument I've heard from people who shoplift or steal supplies from work: Everybody does it." But the truth is not everybody does it no matter how convenient that makes it for the person who is doing it.
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03-18-05, 03:09 PM
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uhm, what were we talking about? doping? personality cults?
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03-18-05, 03:34 PM
#141
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We're *****ing about David Millar, and Laggard's dog has fleas ahead of schedule. Good thread.
03-18-05, 03:38 PM
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The next time I start a thread about favorite PBS shows, instead of it sinking to the bottom of the ocean with zero replies, I think I'll give it a Lance-bashing title.
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03-18-05, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by gcasillo
We're *****ing about David Millar, and Laggard's dog has fleas ahead of schedule. Good thread.
03-18-05, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by krispistoferson
The next time I start a thread about favorite PBS shows, instead of it sinking to the bottom of the ocean with zero replies, I think I'll give it a Lance-bashing title.
Gotta go. Lawrence Welk's on.
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03-19-05, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Laggard
Several riders, including Simioni, who were no threat to the GC were in a break when Sir Armstrong decided to chase down the break, effectively ruining the day for everyone involved.. When he got up to the leading group he said something to Simioni. What he said and how he said it is open to debate.
Armstrong just rode Simeoni's wheel from the peloton. As he said, he didn't even know that the peloton left them behind at first. The break was already up the road.
Ruined the day for everyone involved? One of the riders in that break ended up winning the stage.
03-19-05, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by velocipedio
there are a lot of races that measure the rider in different ways. armstrong has been the best tour de france racer for six years, but i doubt he could even finish paris-roubaix today,
I really doubt he wouldn't be able to finish Paris-Roubaix. It's not that hard to finish. Being flat, it doesn't really take away that much stamina - much lesser riders finish the race all the time.
let alone finish in the top ten. and the giro? i seriously doubt he'd make the leader board there, either. the italians don't like time trials, and with so few itt's [is there one this year?] and no ttt's, he would not have the opportunity to make time.
But I'll ignore all of the results of the last 7 years and instead believe you.
03-19-05, 05:05 PM
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[QUOTE=brent_dube].
I really doubt he wouldn't be able to finish Paris-Roubaix. It's not that hard to finish. Being flat, it doesn't really take away that much stamina - much lesser riders finish the race all the time.
I've ridden the course twice, in wet and dry conditions. I've followed the race ten times, by car, and on a bike. It seems like the greatest one-day race in the world- and a supreme test of stamina and resolve- for professional riders and randonneurs alike-but I'll ignore the evidence of 35 years' experience-and instead believe you! ;-)
The state Armstrong was in at Paris-Nice, he'd be hard pressed to finish within ten minutes of the winner at Roubaix, next month.
I really doubt he wouldn't be able to finish Paris-Roubaix. It's not that hard to finish. Being flat, it doesn't really take away that much stamina - much lesser riders finish the race all the time.
I've ridden the course twice, in wet and dry conditions. I've followed the race ten times, by car, and on a bike. It seems like the greatest one-day race in the world- and a supreme test of stamina and resolve- for professional riders and randonneurs alike-but I'll ignore the evidence of 35 years' experience-and instead believe you! ;-)
The state Armstrong was in at Paris-Nice, he'd be hard pressed to finish within ten minutes of the winner at Roubaix, next month.
03-19-05, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by brent_dube
I heard Armstrong is very good on mountain stages.
the tour de france is the most important race on the calendar to americans and frenchmen. it is not the only race, however. it is the ultimate test of a racer in the tour de france, but there are other races that test different qualities. armstrong does not excel at all of those qualities. that doesn't makle him a bad person or a bad cyclist. it just means that he is not omnipotent.
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03-19-05, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by velocipedio
he is, but he's far from the best. if you look at the results of the last six tours, you'll find that the stages where he put time into his opponents were the time trials.
Stage 12 mountain finish: 2nd place
Stage 13 Mountain Finish: 1st place Kloden 1:27 back, Ullrich 2:42 back, Simoni 3:43 back, Heras 21:35 back
Stage 15 Mountain Finish: 1st place
Stage 16 Mountain Time trial: 1st place, Ullrich 1:01 back, Kloden 1:41 back, Basso 2:23 back, Simoni 3:40 back, Heras 5:40 back, Mayo. . . oh, wait he wasn't even in the race anymore.
So, in a sense you are right about him putting time into his rivals in the time trials, but this particular one seems to represent something about his climbing ability, doesn't it?
03-19-05, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by velocipedio
he is, but he's far from the best. if you look at the results of the last six tours, you'll find that the stages where he put time into his opponents were the time trials. without time trials in the giro, he's be at a disadvantage against the pure climbers.
the tour de france is the most important race on the calendar to americans and frenchmen. it is not the only race, however. it is the ultimate test of a racer in the tour de france, but there are other races that test different qualities. armstrong does not excel at all of those qualities. that doesn't makle him a bad person or a bad cyclist. it just means that he is not omnipotent.
the tour de france is the most important race on the calendar to americans and frenchmen. it is not the only race, however. it is the ultimate test of a racer in the tour de france, but there are other races that test different qualities. armstrong does not excel at all of those qualities. that doesn't makle him a bad person or a bad cyclist. it just means that he is not omnipotent.
This statement is just plain stupid. He has been the best hill climber in cycling for the last 6 years. He just happens to be a great TT and has a team that is wonderful at TTT.