I have compatible rims -- convince me on-road tubeless is (or isn't) worth it
07-14-16, 05:14 PM
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I have compatible rims -- convince me on-road tubeless is (or isn't) worth it
Hi Folks,
Here's the background: I picked up a new "gravel" bike (great price!) that came with Stan's NoTubes Grail rims. I use it as an on-road do-everything bike, including my daily commute with full fenders, rack, etc. On rare occasions it will see fire roads when I am traveling (e.g. camping trips), in which case I would swap the stock cross tires back onto the bike. This bike will be on paved roads 98% of the time. I know that tubeless is great for off-road. But is it worth going tubeless for mostly on-road use, just because I've got a wheelset that can handle it?
The fact that I have the Stan's Grail Rims is the main reason why I am tempted. That and all of the crazy hype surrounding tubeless tires. Like this: Review: Schwalbe S-One tubeless tyre | road.cc
Pros as I understand it:
- Fewer flats that self-repair due to sealant (I don't get many flats and changing a tube is easy)
- Something "magical" about the ride quality (not seen in rolling resistance tests)
- Some seriously praised new tubeless road tires (see Schwalbe S-One article, above).
Cons:
- Dealing with messy sealant: Topping off, wiping out old stuff, recommendations by some sealant-makers to rotate your tires weekly when not riding (!), etc
- Typically need a compressor (or CO2 cartridges) to seat tires, though sealant folks don't recommend CO2 b/c it can harden the sealant or crystallize it.
- Very expensive tires for the tubeless ones that reviewers say are actually better than their clincher counterparts
- Typically harder to mount onto rims (tighter bead) than clinchers
Will switching to expensive Schwalbe S-One tubeless tires (or other similar tires) really provide a ride that is better-enough to counter all of these downsides? The people who seem to have invested big money into road tubeless setups seem to say yes, but I can't see it from where I'm standing. Maybe one has to ride the magic carpet to become a believer? Or drink too much of the Kool-Aid?
Thanks for your hopefully informed opinions. And please, I did not come here to start a flame war over tubed/tubeless!
***********************
For other asking the same question, here's my take after 6 months:
Overall: The tubeless tire experiment has gone well. I haven't had to do much, other than put air in my tires, since getting everything setup. No flats. Nice ride quality (though that is largely due to moving to higher volume tires).
--Would I encourage a mostly-pavement riding roadie to buy new rims just to make the switch: No. Not unless constant flats are a problem where they ride.
--Would I encourage someone who has tubeless-compatible rims to make the switch? It depends. If you get joy from tinkering and don't mind some potential hassles when getting everything setup for the first time, then sure, give it a shot. Otherwise keep enjoying your current tube-based setup.
Setup Challenges: Setup was a bit of a hassle and took some time, but was not difficult per-se. The key annoyances involved...
1) getting the tire to first seal (i.e. "pop" fully into place), which I eventually accomplished with frantic pumping using a regular hand-operated bike pump (i.e. not a compressor), and
2) taking *way* more time and effort than expected to get the sidewalls well-sealed so that I wasn't going from 50 PSI down to 20 PSI every night.
Annoyances over time:
1) Over several time intervals, my rear tire was not holding air very well overnight. This appears to be due to excessive sidewall leakage, based on the wet spots along the outside of the tire. Fixing this involved making sure the tire was well seated and propping the tire on its side (e.g. over the mouth of a cardboard box) to let sealant travel to any sidewall leaks (then repeating with the other side of the tire). Sealant probably doesn't coat the sidewalls very well while the bike is in motion or at rest (e.g. centrifugal force and gravity).
2) I'm now at the point where I should really add more sealant (6 months) and haven't done it yet. It won't take long, but just another small maintenance chore.
3) Ideally I'd like to pull both tires off, remove any larger "Stan's boogers" from inside, mount them with new sealant, and then do the sideways tire rigmarole to reseal them. But that takes more time still.
4) Having to live with sidewall seepage of sealant (a lot at first, less over time), even after everything is holding air very well. It basically looks like "sweat" on your tires -- or bubbly spots early-on before the sidewalls are well sealed. Not a huge deal, but something you don't have when using tubes.
Anyway, thanks to folks in this thread who contributed their own two cents earlier. I've enjoyed learning something new. The main benefit overall has been using smoother and more supple tires, while still avoiding flats on my commute. I don't think I'd use tires this lightweight and thin-walled if I were running tubes. I'm currently running Compass Bon Jon Pass Extra Lights.
Here's the background: I picked up a new "gravel" bike (great price!) that came with Stan's NoTubes Grail rims. I use it as an on-road do-everything bike, including my daily commute with full fenders, rack, etc. On rare occasions it will see fire roads when I am traveling (e.g. camping trips), in which case I would swap the stock cross tires back onto the bike. This bike will be on paved roads 98% of the time. I know that tubeless is great for off-road. But is it worth going tubeless for mostly on-road use, just because I've got a wheelset that can handle it?
The fact that I have the Stan's Grail Rims is the main reason why I am tempted. That and all of the crazy hype surrounding tubeless tires. Like this: Review: Schwalbe S-One tubeless tyre | road.cc
Pros as I understand it:
- Fewer flats that self-repair due to sealant (I don't get many flats and changing a tube is easy)
- Something "magical" about the ride quality (not seen in rolling resistance tests)
- Some seriously praised new tubeless road tires (see Schwalbe S-One article, above).
Cons:
- Dealing with messy sealant: Topping off, wiping out old stuff, recommendations by some sealant-makers to rotate your tires weekly when not riding (!), etc
- Typically need a compressor (or CO2 cartridges) to seat tires, though sealant folks don't recommend CO2 b/c it can harden the sealant or crystallize it.
- Very expensive tires for the tubeless ones that reviewers say are actually better than their clincher counterparts
- Typically harder to mount onto rims (tighter bead) than clinchers
Will switching to expensive Schwalbe S-One tubeless tires (or other similar tires) really provide a ride that is better-enough to counter all of these downsides? The people who seem to have invested big money into road tubeless setups seem to say yes, but I can't see it from where I'm standing. Maybe one has to ride the magic carpet to become a believer? Or drink too much of the Kool-Aid?
Thanks for your hopefully informed opinions. And please, I did not come here to start a flame war over tubed/tubeless!
***********************
For other asking the same question, here's my take after 6 months:
Overall: The tubeless tire experiment has gone well. I haven't had to do much, other than put air in my tires, since getting everything setup. No flats. Nice ride quality (though that is largely due to moving to higher volume tires).
--Would I encourage a mostly-pavement riding roadie to buy new rims just to make the switch: No. Not unless constant flats are a problem where they ride.
--Would I encourage someone who has tubeless-compatible rims to make the switch? It depends. If you get joy from tinkering and don't mind some potential hassles when getting everything setup for the first time, then sure, give it a shot. Otherwise keep enjoying your current tube-based setup.
Setup Challenges: Setup was a bit of a hassle and took some time, but was not difficult per-se. The key annoyances involved...
1) getting the tire to first seal (i.e. "pop" fully into place), which I eventually accomplished with frantic pumping using a regular hand-operated bike pump (i.e. not a compressor), and
2) taking *way* more time and effort than expected to get the sidewalls well-sealed so that I wasn't going from 50 PSI down to 20 PSI every night.
Annoyances over time:
1) Over several time intervals, my rear tire was not holding air very well overnight. This appears to be due to excessive sidewall leakage, based on the wet spots along the outside of the tire. Fixing this involved making sure the tire was well seated and propping the tire on its side (e.g. over the mouth of a cardboard box) to let sealant travel to any sidewall leaks (then repeating with the other side of the tire). Sealant probably doesn't coat the sidewalls very well while the bike is in motion or at rest (e.g. centrifugal force and gravity).
2) I'm now at the point where I should really add more sealant (6 months) and haven't done it yet. It won't take long, but just another small maintenance chore.
3) Ideally I'd like to pull both tires off, remove any larger "Stan's boogers" from inside, mount them with new sealant, and then do the sideways tire rigmarole to reseal them. But that takes more time still.
4) Having to live with sidewall seepage of sealant (a lot at first, less over time), even after everything is holding air very well. It basically looks like "sweat" on your tires -- or bubbly spots early-on before the sidewalls are well sealed. Not a huge deal, but something you don't have when using tubes.
Anyway, thanks to folks in this thread who contributed their own two cents earlier. I've enjoyed learning something new. The main benefit overall has been using smoother and more supple tires, while still avoiding flats on my commute. I don't think I'd use tires this lightweight and thin-walled if I were running tubes. I'm currently running Compass Bon Jon Pass Extra Lights.
Last edited by TrackSmart; 02-01-17 at 10:40 AM. Reason: Update after 6 months with tubeless.
07-14-16, 05:47 PM
#2
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Having used tubeless for a while I'll summarize the key points.
1) Ride quality -- Excellent, but I suspect roughly comparable to latex tubes. The main difference is there's no risk of pinch flats so you can run 5-10 psi less than you might.
2) Safety -- Tires stay locked to the rim even when flat.
3) Maintenance -- You're basically trading time spent fixing flats on the road for time spent in your garage dealing with sealant. The advantage is that your maintenance is planned and can be done at home. As a commuter, tubeless makes a lot of sense, just from a flat protection standpoint.
4) Cost -- This is the major downside of tubeless. The tires are more expensive, and the sealant can be moderately expensive.
I would say that it really depends on your riding style. If you're the type of person that grabs the bike for a Saturday morning coffee ride, and then it sits for a week, you're probably better off sticking to standard clinchers. If you're riding 3+ days a week, then there isn't that much hassle, because you'll probably only need to top off the sealant 1-2 times before wearing out the tire, so you don't ever need to wipe out old sealant.
1) Ride quality -- Excellent, but I suspect roughly comparable to latex tubes. The main difference is there's no risk of pinch flats so you can run 5-10 psi less than you might.
2) Safety -- Tires stay locked to the rim even when flat.
3) Maintenance -- You're basically trading time spent fixing flats on the road for time spent in your garage dealing with sealant. The advantage is that your maintenance is planned and can be done at home. As a commuter, tubeless makes a lot of sense, just from a flat protection standpoint.
4) Cost -- This is the major downside of tubeless. The tires are more expensive, and the sealant can be moderately expensive.
I would say that it really depends on your riding style. If you're the type of person that grabs the bike for a Saturday morning coffee ride, and then it sits for a week, you're probably better off sticking to standard clinchers. If you're riding 3+ days a week, then there isn't that much hassle, because you'll probably only need to top off the sealant 1-2 times before wearing out the tire, so you don't ever need to wipe out old sealant.
07-14-16, 07:12 PM
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Thanks for the thoughtful response. Regarding riding habits: I commute by bike about 3-4x per week (~20 miles round trip each day) and this is the new "commuter", so it gets on the road often.
Sealant Questions:
-How often do you top-off your sealant on a road bike? It seems like the sealant makers (who stand to gain by you using more) seem to suggest either 1-3 months (Orange) or 2-6 months (Stans) according to what I have read: Tubeless Tire Sealant Tech, Part 1 - How Often Should It Be Checked & Replaced? - Bikerumor
-Do you bother with trying to clear out any of the old sealant? Or are the tires basically toast by the time you've accumulated enough dried sealant for it to start to matter?
Safety:
- Thanks for this perspective. I once flatted a rear tire while descending a steep hill. It was definitely hairy trying to keep the bike in control. A front tire would have been worse.
Re: Ride Quality
- Thanks for the balanced perspective (i.e. very good ride quality, but probably similar to running latex tubes). This would seem to confirm that rolling resistance may not be very different from a high quality clincher: Tubeless Vs Latex, Light, and Standard Road Bike Inner Tubes
Other folks? Is it worth the greater tire + sealant expense? Plus the possibility of a harder tire change if you do happen to get a large gash in the sidewall that cannot be sealed? Is it really, as suggested, just trading time in the garage vs. side of the road? I spend about 5-10 minutes, maybe once every 1.5 years, replacing a tube on the road. So not a lot of time. Then again, I usually run fairly robust tires.
-How often do you top-off your sealant on a road bike? It seems like the sealant makers (who stand to gain by you using more) seem to suggest either 1-3 months (Orange) or 2-6 months (Stans) according to what I have read: Tubeless Tire Sealant Tech, Part 1 - How Often Should It Be Checked & Replaced? - Bikerumor
-Do you bother with trying to clear out any of the old sealant? Or are the tires basically toast by the time you've accumulated enough dried sealant for it to start to matter?
Safety:
- Thanks for this perspective. I once flatted a rear tire while descending a steep hill. It was definitely hairy trying to keep the bike in control. A front tire would have been worse.
Re: Ride Quality
- Thanks for the balanced perspective (i.e. very good ride quality, but probably similar to running latex tubes). This would seem to confirm that rolling resistance may not be very different from a high quality clincher: Tubeless Vs Latex, Light, and Standard Road Bike Inner Tubes
Other folks? Is it worth the greater tire + sealant expense? Plus the possibility of a harder tire change if you do happen to get a large gash in the sidewall that cannot be sealed? Is it really, as suggested, just trading time in the garage vs. side of the road? I spend about 5-10 minutes, maybe once every 1.5 years, replacing a tube on the road. So not a lot of time. Then again, I usually run fairly robust tires.
07-14-16, 11:14 PM
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My answer is... not worth it... I just came back from my "scheduled maintenance", after wrestling with the tire for over 1 hour, breaking two tire levers and cutting my hand, I decide to literally cut the f'ing tire out.
It was brand new, ~200 miles on it, but I prefer to carry a spare tube, a repair kit and a couple of co2 with me than having to deal with this.
I've 3 more tubeless tires, and guess what, I wouldn't feel bad for cutting all 3 into pieces so I can move to back to tubes.
It was brand new, ~200 miles on it, but I prefer to carry a spare tube, a repair kit and a couple of co2 with me than having to deal with this.
I've 3 more tubeless tires, and guess what, I wouldn't feel bad for cutting all 3 into pieces so I can move to back to tubes.
07-14-16, 11:32 PM
#6
SuperGimp
Those HED wheels are rough, no lie.
Bottom line - do you like flats and cheap tires or no flats and expensive tires. You choose.
Bottom line - do you like flats and cheap tires or no flats and expensive tires. You choose.
07-14-16, 11:40 PM
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but once home, at least on the belgiums, it is an exercise of patience and will power that I'm afraid I will never win. Luckily I didn't have a sledge hammer or shotgun nearby...
I just wondered if a day I get a flat that can't be sealed on the road, I will most likely need uber to get back home vs. with tube, that may flat more often, but I can always repair and move on.
07-14-16, 11:44 PM
#8
SuperGimp
The reason I was removing it is that I got a flat that stan's couldn't seal, so I was going to repair from the inside.. honestly the difference I've seen so far is with tubeless I can make it home before having to deal with it, it looses pressure down to 50-60 psi and stays there, so you can still ride back home.
but once home, at least on the belgiums, it is an exercise of patience and will power that I'm afraid I will never win. Luckily I didn't have a sledge hammer or shotgun nearby...
I just wondered if a day I get a flat that can't be sealed on the road, I will most likely need uber to get back home vs. with tube, that may flat more often, but I can always repair and move on.
but once home, at least on the belgiums, it is an exercise of patience and will power that I'm afraid I will never win. Luckily I didn't have a sledge hammer or shotgun nearby...
I just wondered if a day I get a flat that can't be sealed on the road, I will most likely need uber to get back home vs. with tube, that may flat more often, but I can always repair and move on.
As for tubeless... I've only had mine for 2300 miles (no flats, knock on wood) so I can't say I've experienced all the problems, but I do carry a tube for the weird situation where the tire won't hold air any longer. I figure i'm in the same boat I'd be in with a tube at that point - if the tire is shot, you're taking uber. If the tire is decent, you can always repair and ride on.
07-15-16, 12:40 AM
#9
Fresh Garbage
I had a similar struggle getting two new "tubeless ready" tires on my mountain bike. Two different brand tires on the same rim front/rear. WOW wtf is going on? It was time for new tires and I decided to try "proper" tubeless after I had previously set up my wheels ghetto tubeless. I'm amazed I got the tires on and I know for a fact when the time comes to replace them destructive means will be required.
07-15-16, 02:42 AM
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The concept of tubeless tires was likely invented by a marketing guy.
07-15-16, 05:49 AM
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If you have to be convinced to go tubeless, don't do it.
I'm a three years on road tubeless now, two bike, two wheelsets. I want more, and to replace my remaining tubed wheelsets with tubeless.
I have no intention of ever going back to tubes, and expect tubeless to get even better.
I love that my wheels are flat-free, lightweight, aero, comfy, and fast. I love that they jump when I give them the pedal, and that tires are easy to get on and off without tools.
Why doesn't everyone have this experience? I dunno...but that people act like tire levers, bead jacks, and tire grabbers didn't exist before tubeless gives me the suspicion that a lot of people don't know what they're doing, what they're supposed to do, or even how to ask the right questions.
I'm a three years on road tubeless now, two bike, two wheelsets. I want more, and to replace my remaining tubed wheelsets with tubeless.
I have no intention of ever going back to tubes, and expect tubeless to get even better.
I love that my wheels are flat-free, lightweight, aero, comfy, and fast. I love that they jump when I give them the pedal, and that tires are easy to get on and off without tools.
Why doesn't everyone have this experience? I dunno...but that people act like tire levers, bead jacks, and tire grabbers didn't exist before tubeless gives me the suspicion that a lot of people don't know what they're doing, what they're supposed to do, or even how to ask the right questions.
07-15-16, 06:36 AM
#12
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It is apparent that tubeless isn't for everyone, some have a tough time mounting/dismounting tires, some can't inflate the tires, some seem to get more sealant outside the tire rather than inside the tire, and then there's the old timers who believe tubes were sent from the gods. Tubeless may not be for the op either, who knows, but why not try it out and see? There are a lot of us here that ride tubeless and would never switch back to a std clincher because the benefits are real. I've been riding tubeless on the road for about three years now using several different tires and have been impressed with all of them so far. Yes, at first I had some issues mounting and inflating but after doing it a few times I realized it was me, not the products. Its a bit of a learning curve to master technique for road tubeless but once you've got it and understand it, you can do it with your eyes closed.
To answer some of the op's questions, here's my take on road tubeless:
Safety = Much improved due to not only the tire locking on to the rim in the event of a sudden air loss but also due to the use of sealant where in the event of a puncture it will slow the leak down enough to safely get the bike stopped. I have also experienced first hand sealant at its best when I got a puncture early in the ride without knowing it and rode 50 miles. I later remember the sealant slinging up off of my wheel and getting on my leg as I got started on the ride but thought that a bird pooped on me. When I got home I dismounted the tire for inspection, removed some glass shards, patched the tire and I'm still riding on it today.
Ride quality = This is where people are very divided and to be honest, I can't see how anyone could possibly say that riding tubeless doesn't feel any better than tubed? I would guess that anyone who thought there was no difference tried it using the cheapest tire they could find and aired it up to the pressure of their tubed setup north of 100psi? To me, riding tubed with so much air pressure feels like I'm riding on a solid tire in comparison. Sorry but nobody's going to sway me to think otherwise because there's no winning that argument with me.
Sealant = If done correctly, sealant is easy to do. I don't even think about it being there because I do enough riding to where the tires are either getting rotated for wear or replaced for wear at or before time to worry about it. I always keep a bottle on hand just in case I have to dismount the tire for repair or rotation. The op does a lot of riding too so I would just say any time you have the tire off the rim you wash out the old sealant and add new after reinstalling the tire, otherwise don't worry about it. If you happen to notice some of the sealant is boogered up inside the tire and choose to remove it before you remount the tire, simply find a hard bristle brush or even a scotch brite pad and scrub while keeping it wet with a garden hose, comes off quite easy.
To answer some of the op's questions, here's my take on road tubeless:
Safety = Much improved due to not only the tire locking on to the rim in the event of a sudden air loss but also due to the use of sealant where in the event of a puncture it will slow the leak down enough to safely get the bike stopped. I have also experienced first hand sealant at its best when I got a puncture early in the ride without knowing it and rode 50 miles. I later remember the sealant slinging up off of my wheel and getting on my leg as I got started on the ride but thought that a bird pooped on me. When I got home I dismounted the tire for inspection, removed some glass shards, patched the tire and I'm still riding on it today.
Ride quality = This is where people are very divided and to be honest, I can't see how anyone could possibly say that riding tubeless doesn't feel any better than tubed? I would guess that anyone who thought there was no difference tried it using the cheapest tire they could find and aired it up to the pressure of their tubed setup north of 100psi? To me, riding tubed with so much air pressure feels like I'm riding on a solid tire in comparison. Sorry but nobody's going to sway me to think otherwise because there's no winning that argument with me.
Sealant = If done correctly, sealant is easy to do. I don't even think about it being there because I do enough riding to where the tires are either getting rotated for wear or replaced for wear at or before time to worry about it. I always keep a bottle on hand just in case I have to dismount the tire for repair or rotation. The op does a lot of riding too so I would just say any time you have the tire off the rim you wash out the old sealant and add new after reinstalling the tire, otherwise don't worry about it. If you happen to notice some of the sealant is boogered up inside the tire and choose to remove it before you remount the tire, simply find a hard bristle brush or even a scotch brite pad and scrub while keeping it wet with a garden hose, comes off quite easy.
07-15-16, 07:13 AM
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I have stans wheels with hutchinson tires tubeless and have had no issues. I also run tubes on another bike and rarely have issues. My third bike has tubulars and no issues. 6 in one 1/2 dozen in the other.
07-15-16, 07:54 AM
#14
Senior Member
Sealant Questions:
-How often do you top-off your sealant on a road bike? It seems like the sealant makers (who stand to gain by you using more) seem to suggest either 1-3 months (Orange) or 2-6 months (Stans) according to what I have read: Tubeless Tire Sealant Tech, Part 1 - How Often Should It Be Checked & Replaced? - Bikerumor
-Do you bother with trying to clear out any of the old sealant? Or are the tires basically toast by the time you've accumulated enough dried sealant for it to start to matter?
-How often do you top-off your sealant on a road bike? It seems like the sealant makers (who stand to gain by you using more) seem to suggest either 1-3 months (Orange) or 2-6 months (Stans) according to what I have read: Tubeless Tire Sealant Tech, Part 1 - How Often Should It Be Checked & Replaced? - Bikerumor
-Do you bother with trying to clear out any of the old sealant? Or are the tires basically toast by the time you've accumulated enough dried sealant for it to start to matter?
Don't bother cleaning the sealant out, other than removing any big globs. I've been using Orange Seal and it tends to leave a thin coating on everything. Keep in mind that tires like the Schwalbe One are wear quickly so you're likely to get 2-4k miles before the rear tire is worn out.
07-15-16, 08:43 AM
#15
Who is Austin Dunbar?
This is exactly why I won't ride a tire/rim combination that I have not personally put on and taken off by hand. I want to make sure that if anything happens I will have no problems changing the tube with minimal hassle.
07-15-16, 08:54 AM
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07-15-16, 10:25 AM
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Senior Member
My answer is... not worth it... I just came back from my "scheduled maintenance", after wrestling with the tire for over 1 hour, breaking two tire levers and cutting my hand, I decide to literally cut the f'ing tire out.
It was brand new, ~200 miles on it, but I prefer to carry a spare tube, a repair kit and a couple of co2 with me than having to deal with this.
I've 3 more tubeless tires, and guess what, I wouldn't feel bad for cutting all 3 into pieces so I can move to back to tubes.
It was brand new, ~200 miles on it, but I prefer to carry a spare tube, a repair kit and a couple of co2 with me than having to deal with this.
I've 3 more tubeless tires, and guess what, I wouldn't feel bad for cutting all 3 into pieces so I can move to back to tubes.
07-15-16, 11:07 AM
#19
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A couple questions that this thread has got me curious about.
1. Why can't a tubeless tire come of a rim if it flats? From reading the above, is it for the same reason one poster had to cut his tube in half to remove it from the wheel?
2. When running the lower pressures these tires allow, is this solely for comfort and because there's no risk of pinch flatting? What does it do to performance. Ie. if you run a clincher at 100psi, and can run a tubeless at 80, is the performance going to be the same as running the clincher at 80 (at obviously greater flat risk)?
1. Why can't a tubeless tire come of a rim if it flats? From reading the above, is it for the same reason one poster had to cut his tube in half to remove it from the wheel?
2. When running the lower pressures these tires allow, is this solely for comfort and because there's no risk of pinch flatting? What does it do to performance. Ie. if you run a clincher at 100psi, and can run a tubeless at 80, is the performance going to be the same as running the clincher at 80 (at obviously greater flat risk)?
07-15-16, 11:07 AM
#20
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It is apparent that tubeless isn't for everyone, some have a tough time mounting/dismounting tires, some can't inflate the tires, some seem to get more sealant outside the tire rather than inside the tire, and then there's the old timers who believe tubes were sent from the gods. Tubeless may not be for the op either, who knows, but why not try it out and see? There are a lot of us here that ride tubeless and would never switch back to a std clincher because the benefits are real. I've been riding tubeless on the road for about three years now using several different tires and have been impressed with all of them so far. Yes, at first I had some issues mounting and inflating but after doing it a few times I realized it was me, not the products. Its a bit of a learning curve to master technique for road tubeless but once you've got it and understand it, you can do it with your eyes closed.
To answer some of the op's questions, here's my take on road tubeless:
Safety = Much improved due to not only the tire locking on to the rim in the event of a sudden air loss but also due to the use of sealant where in the event of a puncture it will slow the leak down enough to safely get the bike stopped. I have also experienced first hand sealant at its best when I got a puncture early in the ride without knowing it and rode 50 miles. I later remember the sealant slinging up off of my wheel and getting on my leg as I got started on the ride but thought that a bird pooped on me. When I got home I dismounted the tire for inspection, removed some glass shards, patched the tire and I'm still riding on it today.
Ride quality = This is where people are very divided and to be honest, I can't see how anyone could possibly say that riding tubeless doesn't feel any better than tubed? I would guess that anyone who thought there was no difference tried it using the cheapest tire they could find and aired it up to the pressure of their tubed setup north of 100psi? To me, riding tubed with so much air pressure feels like I'm riding on a solid tire in comparison. Sorry but nobody's going to sway me to think otherwise because there's no winning that argument with me.
Sealant = If done correctly, sealant is easy to do. I don't even think about it being there because I do enough riding to where the tires are either getting rotated for wear or replaced for wear at or before time to worry about it. I always keep a bottle on hand just in case I have to dismount the tire for repair or rotation. The op does a lot of riding too so I would just say any time you have the tire off the rim you wash out the old sealant and add new after reinstalling the tire, otherwise don't worry about it. If you happen to notice some of the sealant is boogered up inside the tire and choose to remove it before you remount the tire, simply find a hard bristle brush or even a scotch brite pad and scrub while keeping it wet with a garden hose, comes off quite easy.
To answer some of the op's questions, here's my take on road tubeless:
Safety = Much improved due to not only the tire locking on to the rim in the event of a sudden air loss but also due to the use of sealant where in the event of a puncture it will slow the leak down enough to safely get the bike stopped. I have also experienced first hand sealant at its best when I got a puncture early in the ride without knowing it and rode 50 miles. I later remember the sealant slinging up off of my wheel and getting on my leg as I got started on the ride but thought that a bird pooped on me. When I got home I dismounted the tire for inspection, removed some glass shards, patched the tire and I'm still riding on it today.
Ride quality = This is where people are very divided and to be honest, I can't see how anyone could possibly say that riding tubeless doesn't feel any better than tubed? I would guess that anyone who thought there was no difference tried it using the cheapest tire they could find and aired it up to the pressure of their tubed setup north of 100psi? To me, riding tubed with so much air pressure feels like I'm riding on a solid tire in comparison. Sorry but nobody's going to sway me to think otherwise because there's no winning that argument with me.
Sealant = If done correctly, sealant is easy to do. I don't even think about it being there because I do enough riding to where the tires are either getting rotated for wear or replaced for wear at or before time to worry about it. I always keep a bottle on hand just in case I have to dismount the tire for repair or rotation. The op does a lot of riding too so I would just say any time you have the tire off the rim you wash out the old sealant and add new after reinstalling the tire, otherwise don't worry about it. If you happen to notice some of the sealant is boogered up inside the tire and choose to remove it before you remount the tire, simply find a hard bristle brush or even a scotch brite pad and scrub while keeping it wet with a garden hose, comes off quite easy.
Nailed it.
07-15-16, 11:16 AM
#21
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If you're worried, wait another year, the options are growing and it's only going to get easier. I use the mountain bike tubeless history as a guide. MTB tubeless works so well these days, I don't know anyone running tubes in MTB for the last 2~3 years. Road tubeless is almost there.
07-15-16, 11:36 AM
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well, somebody needs a kool stop tire bead jack!
07-15-16, 01:44 PM
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A couple questions that this thread has got me curious about.
1. Why can't a tubeless tire come of a rim if it flats? From reading the above, is it for the same reason one poster had to cut his tube in half to remove it from the wheel?
2. When running the lower pressures these tires allow, is this solely for comfort and because there's no risk of pinch flatting? What does it do to performance. Ie. if you run a clincher at 100psi, and can run a tubeless at 80, is the performance going to be the same as running the clincher at 80 (at obviously greater flat risk)?
1. Why can't a tubeless tire come of a rim if it flats? From reading the above, is it for the same reason one poster had to cut his tube in half to remove it from the wheel?
2. When running the lower pressures these tires allow, is this solely for comfort and because there's no risk of pinch flatting? What does it do to performance. Ie. if you run a clincher at 100psi, and can run a tubeless at 80, is the performance going to be the same as running the clincher at 80 (at obviously greater flat risk)?
2. Lower pressures can affect performance by reducing bump over rough surfaces enabling higher speed, and it also enhances traction. It can also make a bike feel more surefooted, though maybe that's not a performance issue per se. That said, you don't necessarily want to run lower pressure over good roads, but for the same pressure, tubeless will probably feel better as well.
07-15-16, 02:07 PM
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Wow, these are some great responses. Thank you all!
As for the reason to ask for opinions rather than just jumping in? (per Seattle Forest)
1) Why *wouldn't you* seek opinions from people who have been running road-tubeless tires for a long time? It can take time to realize the benefits and problems (i.e. thousands of miles of use)
2) The tubeless tires that supposedly perform better than clinchers are expensive and I'm naturally "thrifty". I wanted to hear some opinions outside of the bike-media-hype-machine.
Final Verdict: I'm going to give it a try
I'm feeling more spendy than usual right now -- and the new bike is currently running some 23mm tires I had lying around, which is a waste on a bike with such generous tire clearance. Even for commuting duties.
What made the decision for me?
Some very thoughtful responses in this thread regarding the downsides (and how much of a problem they really are). It is clear that tubeless has the potential to be a pain-in-the-arse and there may be a learning curve involved, but I've never been afraid to tinker with my bikes. I've also mounted some ridiculously tight tires using all of the tricks in the book. So I think I can handle that. I'm sure there are some really poor tire/rim combinations out there (like HazeT's extreme example), but I haven't read about any horror stories with the NoTubes Grail rims in my internet searches. Also, if I hate the whole tubeless enterprise, I can always put some tubes in the tires I purchased and call it a day. I'll just have spent more than necessary on the tires themselves.
Wow, these are some great responses. Thank you all!
As for the reason to ask for opinions rather than just jumping in? (per Seattle Forest)
1) Why *wouldn't you* seek opinions from people who have been running road-tubeless tires for a long time? It can take time to realize the benefits and problems (i.e. thousands of miles of use)
2) The tubeless tires that supposedly perform better than clinchers are expensive and I'm naturally "thrifty". I wanted to hear some opinions outside of the bike-media-hype-machine.
Final Verdict: I'm going to give it a try
I'm feeling more spendy than usual right now -- and the new bike is currently running some 23mm tires I had lying around, which is a waste on a bike with such generous tire clearance. Even for commuting duties.
What made the decision for me?
Some very thoughtful responses in this thread regarding the downsides (and how much of a problem they really are). It is clear that tubeless has the potential to be a pain-in-the-arse and there may be a learning curve involved, but I've never been afraid to tinker with my bikes. I've also mounted some ridiculously tight tires using all of the tricks in the book. So I think I can handle that. I'm sure there are some really poor tire/rim combinations out there (like HazeT's extreme example), but I haven't read about any horror stories with the NoTubes Grail rims in my internet searches. Also, if I hate the whole tubeless enterprise, I can always put some tubes in the tires I purchased and call it a day. I'll just have spent more than necessary on the tires themselves.
Last edited by TrackSmart; 07-18-16 at 11:12 AM.
07-15-16, 02:56 PM
#25
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1. A tubeless tire can definitely come off the rim if ridden flat. In fact, I'd wager it almost certainly will. Claiming the tire bead locks into the rim is a popular assertion, but I've never seen it to be true across 3 different rims, so even if those are the exception-- which I doubt-- it's still not universally true. Even for a tire/rim combo which does stay seated when deflated, I'd wager that the weight of the bike and force at the wheel will easily unseat any tire.
Zinn actually rode down a mountain on a flat tire just to test it. Also shows a good image of the bead lock.
Technical FAQ: Road tubeless, ceramics for carbon, and more - VeloNews.com
The weight of the bike pushes the tire down, it doesn't push bead off the rim. Cornering forces can apply a small side load, but its typically a small fraction compared to downforce. This is why clinchers don't instantly pop loose and crash massive crashes all the time.