Bornco

Hi,

Our Shimano Tiagra triple front derailleur quit working, so I replaced it with a Sora Triple FD (model #FD-R3030-B) and I can't get it to move out to the big chainring. I've got the outer limit screw maxed out and I can't even move it wide enough by hand when trying to adjust it. When I get the cable tension high enough it will almost shift to the outer chainring but still won't go. Of course, at that point I can't get it to shift back down into granny without reducing the cable tension. The inner plate barely clears the chain when I'm in the granny and my lowest rear gear, so I can't think of anything to change there.

I've got Sora brifters and I think they are fully compatible with the derailleur and I've got new cables.

I think it may be a chainline problem. This is a mid-90's Santana Arriva with 160mm rear spacing. The chainrings are as close to the frame as they can possibly be run, so I don't know how to fix that problem.

Does anyone know if the Sora FD-R3030-F might work? I didn't notice when I ordered it, but there are two types. The F has some sort of adjustment I've never seen above the cable attaching bolt. I think you use a plastic Shimano template to determine the proper cable route. Would this possibly give me more cable pull and move the derailleur out wide enough?

The old Tiagra FD with the Sora Brifters worked perfectly for about 15,000 miles and we really want our big ring back!!

Oh, I also replaced all of the chainrings as they were worn. Was using a 26-34-46, and went to a 26-34-44 when I found out that the Sora can only handle an 11 tooth difference from the middle to the big.

I tried cleaning up the old Tiagra and re-installing it, but no luck there

Any help would be much appreciated, thanks.

jnbrown

You might need a tandem specific derailleur clamp that positions it further out.

Mr IGH

Whenever I struggle with a front derailleur the first thing I do is get the factory instructions and follow them exactly. The fact that your old Tiagra front derailleur worked well is an indication that a front derailliur can work well on your bike.

(I assume your Sora brifters are the 9 speed version.)

here's the user manual for the FD 3030 that explains the f version:
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/um/UM-5NL0A-005-0R.pdf

Here's the dealer manual for proper set up:
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-RBFD001-01-ENG.pdf

As a last resort you could always source a NOS/lightly used Tiagra of your exact version that worked well on ebay. On my road bikes I run the older Tiagra 4503 which is legendary on the Touring subforum.

Mr IGH

I just made some chainline measurements on existing triples I have working with 4503 brifters/front derailleur.

- The outside ring chainline on one bike is 55mm with 130mm hub and 52/39/24 chainrings.

- The other bike is 58mm outside ring chainline with 135mm hub and 50/39/24 chainrings.

- Both shift very will and index correctly.

- On my 1998 Arriva I have 160mm spacing and I set my outside ring chainline at 58.5mm. I upgraded to 4603 10 speed brifters and the 9 speed rear Deore derailleur is shifting well on a 10 speed cassette/brifters.

- It's not shifting well in the front with an old 8 speed 105 front derailleur with braze-on clamp. It was all bent up so I tried to make it work but it's not cooperating.

- I'm ordering a 4603 that matches the brifters and hoping everything works well. I expect it should work as long as the chainline is within what I already have working.

OneIsAllYouNeed

A perfect chainline on a 160mm rear Santana would be 60mm for the middle chainring, 65mm outer, and 55mm inner.
Shimano road triple front derailleurs are nominally designed for a 47.5mm chainline for the middle chainring. I'm not aware of any off-the-shelf adapters to move a braze-on front derailleur over far enough for good shifting. You might contact Santana for one of their custom "far out" front derailleur clamps.

If shopping for new stuff, you might want to get a mountain triple front derailleur and adapter for fat bikes with 170mm rear spacing. I'd probably go with the "S3" or "E2" direct mount standard for the widest range of derailleurs and adapters.

Mr IGH

That assumes the cassette is spaced as closely as possible to the rear dropout. It isn't, there's an extra 5mm of space you haven't accounted for. And the factory recommendation is just that, a recommendation. There isn't hard and fast number, esp when adjusting the front derailleur on a Santana is being addressed. Brifters/3x frt derailleurs are able to take a wider range of chainline as proven by anyone running a road triple on a 135mm hub. And some extra angle in the chainline doesn't matter esp when modern 9 and 10 speed chains are taken into account.
That's if you're running 130mm rear hub. When a 135mm rear hub is used the extra 5mm must be accounted for. And it doesn't have to be dead-nuts on to work, the brifter/frt der can work over a wider range of chainline.
Except a mtn front derailleur doesn't work with brifters.

You're overly reliant on by-the-book which isn't going to work in this case....

OneIsAllYouNeed

I haven't wrenched on Santanas. Do their rear hubs really have the cassette 5mm inboard of the dropout compared to everyone else?

ReidH

When you tried moving the derailleur by hand was the cable connected?

Double check the limit screws again to ensure they are not impeding the derailleur. Check the derailleur manual to ensure they are set correctly. Remove the drive chains from the chainring.
Then test the derailleur by hand for adequate movement.
If you get enough travel to move to the big ring and beyond, then you can do the FD setup.

Reid

Bornco

Thanks for the input everybody, many interesting ideas.

In answer to Reid, the cable was not connected and the chain was removed when I tried to move it wide enough by hand. I think that the folks who say the derailleur needs to be moved laterally are correct. I had tried this theory out by building up the seatpost with electrical tape where the derailleur clamps to it, but then the attachment bolt for the derailleur was too short to connect. I may pursue this further.

I checked the Santana page, but don't see the the special derailleur clamp that was suggested. I had already printed out the Shimano tech info on the derailleur, so I'm pretty sure i have adjusted the upper and lower limit screws properly. I'm going to have to research chain lines, I've never really studied them before and have absolutely no idea how to change it. It looks like I may be in for a trip to the bike store to see what they can figure out.

On the plus side, my wife says "let's go buy a new tandem", so that's pretty cool. The flip side is I'm really slow about figuring out which one I want. Got it narrowed down to a custom Rodriguez, or a Davinci though.

mibike

Are the derailleurs braze on? A lot of tandems use a braze on derailleur bolted to a clamp that sets it farther to the right. If this is the case and your new derailleur is braze on you should be able to use the clamp from the old derailleur.

Bornco

No, it's not a braze on. It's a 31.8 clamp.

Leisesturm

I don't know, I'd have to try the 12 tooth difference with the Sora first and see it fail before I decided it couldn't be done. Our tandem came with a 52/42/30 and I changed to a 52/39/24 with the same FD. If you suspect that the Shimano literature says that that extreme a range cannot work without problems you would be right. But guess what? It shifts just fine. And (IMO) a tandem should have that wide range a triple because a tandem is more a semi-tractor trailer rig while a half bike is more a sports car. Tandems need to gear down and winch up the 14% grades and we need those big ring ratios to exploit the potential energy on the way down.

Are you using a MTB triple (68mm bcd) or Road triple (74mm bcd)? Lowest granny with MTB is usually 22T. Lowest granny with Road: 24T. I would use the lowest tooth count granny supported by the style of crankset. For a big ring I would probably want the 48T if MTB and 50T if Road. The middle ring could be anything in the low 30's for either style. If the FD can't deal with that I'd dump it and get something that could. FWIW.

Mr IGH

Whatever you end up getting, I'd avoid 160mm rear axle spacing. After much screwing around it appears combining Shimano STI with 160mm spacing is not for the naive or uninitiated. I was both until yesterday. While I don't have it working exactly correct it's getting close. This wouldn't be an issue on 135mm/140mm/145mm rear axle spacing and rear wheel strength isn't an issue that 160mm fixes. (In other words, it's not a big deal to build a strong rear wheel with 135/140/145mm spacing compared to 160mm.)

Bornco

I spent about another 1 1/2 hours working on this with still no luck. I'm beginning to wonder if it's a 2x front derailleur in a 3x box.

Thanks for the tips everybody, I'm taking it to the bike shop next week to see if they can make it work.

Called DaVinci on Friday, super nice guy and very helpful, but my wife is not convinced about the independent pedaling so it's looking more like a Rodriguez, probably with 145 spacing, lol.

mibike

You can see the difference in a 2x and a 3x by looking at the inner cage. It will come down lower on a 3x to push the chain from the small to middle ring. See https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-3x9-s.../dp/B01H40ENYC The 2x will have a smaller cage that dosn't go as far down. See https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-FD-35...70_&dpSrc=srch

I think your best bet is to get a braze-on derailleur and a clamp that moves it farther right. Most likely both Precision Tandems and Tandems East will have a clamp that will work.

Mr IGH

My 160mm rear axle spacing 1998 Santana came with a braze-on clamp front derailleur which I assumed to be for the reasons you describe. When I purchased a modern Tiagra 4603 front derailleur I was worried it wouldn't move over far enough. Turned out it's a non-issue, it has plenty of range. OTOH, the bottom bracket is 128mm and there's no way to create a chainline such that the front derailleur can't move over far enough. The bottom bracket would need to be a ~140mm to create a chainline such that the Tiagra front derailleur couldn't move over far enough to shift.

The issue is more complex. Modern Shimano derailleurs are tuned to a specific chainline for crisp shifts and no rubbing. The 160mm rear axle spacing moves the cassette over so far that when the smallest cogs are selected chain is canted at an angle such it rubs. The front cage can't be moved over any further because it strikes the crank arm.

mibike

I agree with your statement on avoiding 160 mm spacing. It sounds like you have a chain line problem. I don't know if you can get a good chain line with 160 mm spacing. I know some Santanas came with a proprietary bottom bracket. I would talk to either Precision Tandems or Tandems East.

The commit on braze-on was meant for Bronco. He said his derailleur won't move far enough right.

FSA makes a clamp for tandems that moves the derailleur farther right. Both of my Co-Motions came with one. Santana has a clamp they call a Triple-fix far out I din't know if it moves the derailleur any farther than the FSA or not. If you get your chain line improved this might become an issue for you.

Bornco

Thanks for that I called Santana on Friday, but didn't get an answer. Now I'll know what to ask for when I do get them.

turbozinke

Did you make sure that the elevation (vertical) of the derailleur above the largest chainring is correct? If it is too low the chain can be jammed and prevented from going over the large chainring. Another way is to rotate the front derailleur counterclockwise just a degree or a few degrees so that the chain will hit it and move up.

Philly Tandem

As far as I know, all 160mm Santanas use a special Santana-made clamp combined with a braze-on FD derailleur to get the derailleur correctly placed for the chainline. This is mainly due to the wider BBs required (usually 127mm or thereabouts) for the wide rear spacing. Regular FDs, your Sora included, aren't made to pull out that far, being designed for 118mm or smaller BB axle lengths. I'm kinda surprised the Tiagra one you had worked. Also, I don't recall the Arriva model ever coming with a Tiagra FD and Sora STI levers. Maybe they were added afterwards? Was your bike originally an 8-speed with bar-end levers, perhaps, and somebody upgraded to 9-speed? Are you running the original cranks and BBS, too? Some more details would be helpful.

You may already have the Santana clamp on your removed Tiagra FD and not realize it. Basically the Santana clamp mates with a braze-on spec FD to comprise the entire FD unit. Check your Tiagra FD and see if it is bolted into a removable clamp. If so, separate the two pieces and get a (new/used) braze-on FD to use with it. Santana usually spec'd the Ultegra 6503 FD on most of their bikes with STIs. It works fine with 48-38-24 setups (I have this on both my Santanas). These Santana-spec clamps are NOT the same as generic clamps that allow a braze-on FD to be used with regular bikes. They position the FD further outboard.

FYI, there is one of these clamps on Ebay right now: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Santana-Tri...-/273082038391

And plenty of Ultegra 6503 braze-on FDs on Ebay for cheap. Here's one, for example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/SHIMANO-ULT...s/132521427393

Bornco

Thanks for all of the input, hopefully I'll get this straightened out. To answer a few questions -
1. I've worked on fine tuning the height of the derailleur and still no luck.
2. This is an Arriva that my parents bought back in around 1994 or 95. It originally had bar ends and was an 8 speed.
I converted it to the Sora levers and Tiagra FD and had several happy years with the shifting, although it did take a while to fine tune it. It has always had a clamp type derailleur, not a braze on. Once I got it figured out, my wife would often say "That was like butter" the chainring shifting was so good. For whatever reason I can't make this Sora work now that the Tiagra is worn out.

Here's a link I've been reading that is really informative, but I haven't had much time to figure out how to apply the info yet. https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/...h-sti-triples/

I really appreciate everyone's help, we've still been able to ride, just don't have a big ring!!

Carbonfiberboy 

The article is typical Heine, but the comments are interesting. There are many ways to set up triples, some of them better, some worse, due to the variety of systems in use over the years and the ways their various bits interact.

In any case, just buy a new Tiagra 3x unit with a 31.8 clamp. They're out there and pretty cheap really. Google "tiagra triple front derailleur". That is if the FD is really worn out. I've never worn out a triple FD, over 50,000 miles on one of them and not showing any wear. IME it's usually the cable or brifter that goes. In which case you can put on a new 10 sp. triple left brifter and be back in business.

LV2TNDM

If too little cable pull from the STI lever is an issue, you could try mounting the cable on the other side of the bolt on the derailleur. This will reduce the amount of cable pull needed from the STI lever to move the derailleur cage more. But it will probably throw off your trim adjustments, so try it only as a last resort. And it may take some modification of the clamp area on the derailleur as well. Again, last resort type of thing.

I've been using 8-speed on the tandems for so long, I haven't really looked at the 8-9-10 speed compatibility issues with cranks and chainring spacing. But isn't the overall width of the chainrings (distance from inner face of inner ring to outer face of outer ring) smaller in 9-speed (and up) cranksets? And thus I assume 9-speed and up front derailleurs are expected to have to move outward less? If so, wouldn't an 8-speed triple front derailleur be the best fix? I realize cage width and shape may reduce shifting efficiency on a 9-speed (and up) setup, but at least you'll get the range you need.

Anyway, good discussion of something I luckily haven't had to delve into yet.

PS One more suggestion. When I was building Campy bikes in the late 80's, we all knew that Campy front derailleurs suffered from "Campy-itis." That is, to get them shifing properly, the fix was bending the front section of the outer cage inward toward the chainring. This enabled one to set the outer limit pin further out to improve and expedite shifts to the large ring, but prevented the chain from being thrown off. Perhaps you need to "finesse" the outer cage shape a little bit to expedite shifting. Just another thought - and only proceed if you're qualified to do so without disastrous results!!!

Bornco

Thanks for the encouraging words I haven't actually tried bending the derailleur, but I have angled it tail out which had really helped with the old Tiagra, but unfortunately not with the Sora. I just received the Santana Triple Fix clamp and a braze on front derailleur that Heine recommended on Friday. I was out of town over the weekend, so I hope to install them later this week.