u235

Some comments after using the Wahoo Elemnt for one year.

The unit has been flawless. It is simple and just works. I turn it on, go for a ride, if I am running the Wahoo app on my phone during the ride, my data is sync'd up at the end. If not, I start the app and it grabs it. It is uploaded and in Strava almost immediately. That is pretty much it... Rinse later repeat. Roughly 120 rides and 4000 miles in pouring down rain, on road, off road, 25-105F, screen completely covered with mud and dust and so on. It just works and it is very uneventful. I have never lost ride data and it has never failed.

I have the Wahoo speed and cadence sensors and I believe I replaced the batteries in them two times at the most. I do not recall a time where either of those went wonkey during a ride except for when the battery was low in them. I also have a Polar chest HRM and it goes wonky very infrequently but it does occasionally but I can't blame that on the Elemnt, it does the same at times with the Polar app on my phone to. The battery on the Elemnt has lasted me at least 8 hours. I usually do not use the mapping or live functions but I have done a few 6-8 hour rides with mapping on and I did notice the battery drop a little bit more than without it. If I am riding that long in a day, I'll be taking a break at some point and I'll plug it in to a portable pack for a bit as a boost just because I can.
Negatives..
In direct noon sun in the summer when really hot, the screen gets a little rainbow effect and cloudy. It goes away in a few minutes away from the sun.
It's ambient temperature reads about 4 degrees lower than actual.
The mapping and turn by turn directions is what it is. It is a predetermined programmed route and nothing more, not Google maps with redirection or rerouting capability. I knew that going in. If you miss a turn or get off course, you'll have to find your own way back on track or grab your phone (I download my routes and offline maps ahead of time to my phone for that reason). Also I've been on a path and it has randomly decided I was off course and starts flashing, there is no other path or route I could possibly be on at that point so it is either a quirk with the planned route, the map data, or temporary GPS single loss..

Just my 0.02. I'm happy with it,

njkayaker

The off course warnings are determined by calculating the distance between your GPS location and the loaded track. The points in the loaded track are the only thing these devices use to know where you should be.

Keep in mind that the location of the road on the map might not exactly match where the road is physically. Losing GPS signal is another reason.

Off course warnings should be take as indications to look at the map.

John_V 

I've had my Bolt for a year and a half and like your Elemnt, it's been flawless and rock solid. Never had an issue with it. My only wish list item is that they come up with a better way to manage routes. It would be nice to be able to delete them on the device without having to delete them on RWGPS first.

JohnJ80

I have one and I agree with the characterization of the device as a data collection and display device - pretty much bulletproof and superior in that regard to the Garmin Edge 1000 I own. While the display is lower tech than the Edge 1000, it's easier to read especially at lower lighting angles in at night. The connectivity for data uploads to a variety of services is better than Garmin as well.

That said, it barely qualifies as a navigation device.

J.

HobbesOnTour

I'm curious as to why you would state that?
I use my Elemnt almost exclusively for navigation and find it perfectly capable for what I want it to do.
I use mine in the context of touring, so my routes are typically multi-day.
I don't normally uses turn by turn navigation so my scope for planning routes on services other than RideWithGPS or Komoot is wider.
(I like to use https://cycle.travel/map)

The only issue with the Elemnt is the fact that if you leave your route behind you it disappears from the screen. To date this has not been an issue for me (2,5 years in use).
One of the advantages it has over the Garmin touring unit I tried was that it deals with going off course as a normal event. The Garmin went nuts, usually "losing" the planned route.

The "Take me To" on the road navigation on the app is far from ideal, but this can be circumvented easily enough with other online (or offline) planners.

I like the fact that (almost) all maps are pre-installed and the detail is enough for what I need it to do. I don't expect my gps device to have detailed maps, for no other reason that the screen is too small to effectively use a detailed map.

In comparison to the Garmin Touring I tried the Elemnt:*
Can be charged from a hub dynamo
Has superior battery
Is superior (faster) in large urban areas
Easier screen to read
Deals with diversions/off route much better
More reliable for recording trips, especially when switching off for a long lunch etc.
Picked up it's location (at startup) much faster than the Garmin.
* I believe there are newer version of Garmin units that may work better than the model I tried.

The only advantage the Garmin has/had was the fact that it had the capability to plan a new route, on the unit, with no internet connectivity. However, I found the overall device was so unreliable that this was not enough for me to keep it. Since then, I have been able to plan routes and send them to the Elemnt totally offline, so that one advantage is nullified.

I'd always suggest to anyone considering a gps device to first think about what they want it to do. Secondly, check that the one you are considering can be used the way you want it to.I would also suggest that the route planner that is used is very significant in the effectiveness of the unit in following that route. No gps unit can fix a badly planned route.

Overall I'd agree with the OP in terms of the Elemnt - it does what it is supposed to do when it's supposed to do it.

njkayaker

That it does what you want it to do doesn't mean it's a good navigation device. The two things aren't really the same.

Cuesheets aren't very good and some people prefer them anyway (they do what they want them to do).

​​​​The Element is a fairly-basic device. But there really isn't any reason it can't work well for navigation.

====================================

Some of the things you can do with the Garmins...

* Install other maps. These could be for MTB or more up-to-date maps.

* Have course points.

* Add locations. For example, you can add points-of-interest or where you are staying.

* You can calculate routes on the device (the Touring is not representative of how well this works).

* You can use overlay maps (e.g., for contours). This works better with the larger screen units.

* You can display other tracks along with the track you are using for navigation.

* You can pan the map.

* You get names on the map.

???

You aren't restricted to those sites for TBT.

The TBT (big white arrows) are created by the device (not the website). As long as the track follows roads/paths that are on the map installed on the device. Cycle.travel uses OSM maps, which is what the newer Garmins provide.

"Course points" (sort of a primative TBT are in the file but the Touring wasn't really able to use them.)

Many people do expect detailed maps.

Almost all the maps people would use are installed on the Garmin too. You do have to install maps when you travel outside the device's region (North America, for may people here). It takes some practice but you can use the maps on the small screen (I did it with a 800). And the screen on the Explore/1000 is big enough. You can pan and zoom the map (I think you can only zoom on the Wahoo).


The Touring isn't really a representative example. It had all sorts of problems.

JohnJ80

I also used the Elemnt for about two years and many thousands of miles but primarily for training. It worked very well for that.

But it is marginal as a navigation device because it has no information with regards to places, streets, or any names on the low quality maps installed. Unfortunately, I doubt further detail could ever be added because of the low screen resolution as well as the display technology (which, incidentally, gives the nice text contrast). You can't pan the map, the chevrons obscure the detail below, there is no topo information on the map display. It is basically mapping technology from the late 1990's. We've moved way past that now and minimum expectations on almost every level for most users are higher.

The intended purpose for the Elemnt is largely aimed at collection of data and display of ride metrics and it does well for that purpose.

I do think the way you load create and load a route into the Elemnt is innovative and I'd like to see all bike computers adopt that. The Elemnt's connectivity for uploading ride data is also top drawer in the industry.

Garmin's navigation is mediocre and I'd never use the device itself to create a route. The process is beyond painful and would benefit so much from an approach similar to Wahoo's. You can do something similar with the dynamic.watch routing software and their ConnectIQ app but anything is an improvement over the native interface in the Garmin OS.

I have sort of settled on the Hammerhead Karoo for my navigation. It wasn't great at the start but it is a simple, straightforward interface with high quality maps that are getting better with each update. I also have side loaded Osmand onto the Karoo which when used on a bike computer with a high quality display like the Karoo has, blows pretty much all other choices out of the water for map quality.

So, yes, in a pinch, I could navigate with an Elemnt but it would be painful and awkward and ranks right up there with how much fun root canals are. The fact that the Elemnt works better than the sort of brain damaged Garmin Tour is more of description of how bad the Garmin Tour is rather than how good the Elemnt navigation is. Wahoo didn't intend the Elemnt to be a good navigator and, in point of fact, have done nothing to improve it for about the last 18 months. They made it as a ride recording and metric display device that has rudimentary navigation capabilities. It fills that role very well.

I like my Elemnt. It's my backup goto device when I ride and know where I'm going.

J.

HobbesOnTour

Thanks for the detailed and reasoned reply.
I can't disagree with any of that, however, people's needs are different. For example, the topo information or street names are handy in the planning of a route which I don't do on the unit. Furthermore (and I may be mistaken since it's a while since I did it) but street info is available when using TBT. In any case, when I use my Wahoo I don't want an overload of information. My cycling enjoyment has increased since I removed speed/average/distance to go etc. from the screen. I just want something to tell me to go left or right rather than have to fish out a map or refer to notes. A simple glance at the screen is enough for me - I don't need the extra info. Having said that the gradient info on the Elemnt is crap!
Agreed.
Agreed. The fact that I can load up a route using only my phone is a fantastic advantage for my uses - touring. The fact that I can now do it totally offline is even better!
My experience with Garmin is limited to a few weeks with a Touring unit. I have read of people having issues with the maps and memory cards. For example, I recall reading of a UK tourist who bought the official Garmin maps for Canada and on arrival was stranded for 5 days trying to get the maps to work. In the end she set off with no working unit.
I've read your posts previously advocating the Karoo. It's a unit I'm not familiar with and doesn't seem to be stocked by any main retailers where I am (Europe).
Ah now! You lost me at root canal!
As I said, I like the navigation functionality - simple as it may be. It does what I need it to do and for me, it has done it impeccably - and that's in places that I don't know where it is most important.

Being able to use a phone is a significant advantage of the Wahoo unit. Being able to charge from a dynamo is a significant advantage. Even the fact that it uses the same usb cable as my phone & kindle & tablet is an advantage for me.

In my original post I suggested to anyone considering a gps unit to have a good think about how they intend to use it and to make sure that their target will do what they want to do. Our discussion underlines this.

With the benefit of hindsight, the most basic of the Garmin E-trex units would probably have served my purposes and saved some money. Although I do like the simplicity of the Wahoo system for recording and sharing the ride data.

Hopefully this discussion will help people tease out what is important to them. Thanks for the interesting discussion!

HobbesOnTour

Thanks for taking the time to answer a question directed to someone else.

njkayaker

It's a public forum.

JohnJ80

I agree that there are different use cases, or maybe use "expectations" when it comes to bike computers. I'm all for simple, but between my bike computer and phone, that IS my map and notes. I don't carry that stuff anymore so I'm expecting all of that functionality to be handled by one or both of those two devices.

I do think the bike computer market is kind of ripe for disruption. There's a guy with large market share and stodgy software, there are converging technologies from the smartphone and computer world, and there are companies that are not loaded down with the legacy software of the market leader. There's companies trying.... Keeping an eye on emerging companies is a smart play.

On grade:
For the many years I had ridden with a Garmin unit, I had never questioned the grade number and often had it as part of my display set up. When I got an Element, I got pretty fed up with how it was all over the place and starting doing a lot of investigation and thinking about how grade is calculated and measured. That led me to the realization that the Garmin numbers are also crap, but they have figured out how to make the display more believable than other computer manufacturers. The issue is that they are all trying to figure out grade by looking at the barometric change over a given distance (rise over run). That takes time to calculate so there is going to be a lag no matter what. But I also noticed, when the Elemnt was new and the revisions were coming fast and furious, that at times the grade would change suddenly when I semi would blow by (i.e. change in barometric pressure to the Elemnt). Then when I started looking at the numbers I had seen on the display of my Garmin against what was seen on actual mapping data, I realized that Garmin wasn't so accurate either.

I think the best data is that which is calculated when the route is created and when you can see where you are on an elevation profile of the route. Other than that, I don't look at the grade as calculated by the bike computer from it's sensors anymore. Also worthy to note that GPS altitude is generally pretty bad in and of itself.



The Karoo is only available direct from Hammerhead through their website. Still a work in progress, but making progress for sure.

"root canal" was hyperbole. My bad.

I've been in the "navigation" business both through offshore yacht racing, cycling and supporting the industry with electronic components for probably 30 years. I'd never want to go back to the eTrex days if I could avoid it. .

As far as using paper maps or notes goes, that really became only an emergency activity (thankfully) maybe 15 years ago (from a sailing perspective). Yes, we have them around and keep them up to date, but they never get used.

I also think that is the expectation of largely the entire user base given the market saturation of the smartphone now. It's also probably the smallest form factor at the same time. So even if you want simpler than that, you get all the other features pretty much for free. You can get to the underlying data but then it sort of becomes a stubbornness or philosophical thing instead of a utility or for safety. All the development has been driven by the smartphone with it's massive economies of scale on so many level - the SoC (system on a chip) semiconductors which drives computing power up and battery power consumption down, the mechanical packaging, the interface standards, the low power networking, the wide ranging cellular networks etc... If you want functionality, low power, cheap, and small size - it's kind of all there now.

I resist the notion that digital cellular networks are becoming ever more ubiquitous but the fact of it is that they are and data and battery usage costs are now quite low such that being "off the grid" is now a lot less necessary than it once was. That said, getting data from the phone to the bike computer without the network still has utility but that is also fading.

So I think the "how you intend to use it" thing is not as important and becoming less so at a pretty rapid rate. We're getting to the point where the features and networks are all largely there and you can use it any way you want to but it's all there to use without compromise. While that isn't completely true .... yet, it is becoming more and more true over time and in the medium term when it used to be long term or not possible. Be interesting to look back at this conversation in a year to see.

HobbesOnTour

It might take me a year to digest all that!

I get what you're saying but hope that it's not true, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I don't like the idea that at a certain point product development hits a level and it is decided that this is the pinnacle and the only choice. On a purely philosophical point, that's a scary thought.

While the future might be one of hegemony, the present certainly isn't. If it was we'd have nothing to discuss!

unterhausen

I think it is interesting that all of a sudden a batch of companies decided to take on garmin. Unfortunately, I think the big market is people who want to use their devices for recording. So those of us that use them for navigation are shortchanged.

Randonneurs that use the Elemnt seem to have no complaints about the navigation. I have seen some complaints about the buttons, power meter integration, and I know one person who has a unit that overheats at fairly low temperatures, mid-80s. And Wahoo says it's her fault. So that is more concerning to me than the navigation, which seems to work fine for most people.

JohnJ80

In the electronics world, you have diversity of design until a device gets to extraordinary volumes. This happened both with PCs and now to an even larger degree with smartphones. The economies of scale warp everything else. That's what is happening here and we're seeing "reference designs" for smartphones get cut and pasted into all sorts of devices. Same was true using PCs and PC motherboards became the basic unit of computing hardware. The underlying problem all gets back to money. In the semiconductor industry, state of the art factories for chips cost about $15B and are useful for a distressingly short period of time from an investment perspective. So, making the same things billions of times repetitiously drives the cost down and the volumes up. And here we are.

I think that's because the other suppliers are seeing an opportunity to disrupt. Garmin has given them the opportunity by being stodgy about innovation and not taking risks. We'll see if they can pull it off. I hope they can - never good when one guy has something like 95% market share. Competition is great for consumers in both features and pricing.

Randonneur riding is a lot different that a single person trying to follow a route on which they are the only person riding it. I can believe that the randoneurs find it acceptable.

The unit itself is bulletproof (at least mine is), the display is easy to read, battery consumption is low. But the screen is very old technology which provides the battery and contrast performance but handicaps the ability to have better navigation and mapping. If you generally know where you are going and/or have some general familiarity with the area in which you are riding (which sort of defeats the purpose of navigation) then it works really well. But it is limiting if you get lost and are trying to figure out where you are or if you need street names or addresses. At that point, you'll be looking at your phone.

Don't get me wrong - I think the Wahoo Elemnt series of bike computers are good products. I prefer using mine to using my Garmin Edge 1000 because of the screen contrast. Wahoo's primary aim is in the recording of data with navigation a relatively distant second priority. As good as the Elemnt is at data recording, it's not comparatively as good at navigation.

J.

John_V 

Lots of good pros and cons on the Elemnt and Bolt computers from JohnJ80 and unterhausen. I use navigation on my Bolt on charity rides and group rides where I'm not familiar with the area. If route maps are available, I'll download them and use them throughout the ride. This is just me, but if I'm not familiar with the area and my Bolt will tell me when and where to turn, I really don't care to see or know the names of the streets between my location and the next turn. To me, it just clutters up the screen. I've used the navigation on my Bolt for countless number of rides and it has yet to get me lost or had me make an incorrect turn. This is just my opinion and I know that there are some people that like to have their bike computer maps look like maps on their cell phones, but that's what my cell phone is for.

Steve B.

I really liked my Bolt. Biggest issue I had was the TBT is displayed in reverse - white text on black background and I found that impossible to read while wearing sunglasses (non-polarized). I would have to take off my glasses to read the screen. Note that I had come from an Edge 810, who's color map and TBT data display I thought was and is superior, as is my current 1000. That and the lack of an ability to use "other than Wahoo" maps, made the unit less than useful - to me. Had I just been doing basic TBT and data collection and display, the Wahoo's do that much better than Garmin, especially the interface with RWGPS.

I would really like to see the Hammerhead get developed to it's full potential but would have been very disappointed had I been one of the early users. I really think their lack of a phone app and reliance on WiFi only with no BT connection to a smartphone app is peculiar and limiting. The ability to dump a completed ride up to the web via a BT connection to a phone with a cell data connection, instead of waiting till you find WiFi is a mistake. We'll see where they go with all this as I think the unit is a potential game changer.

JohnJ80

Yeah, I was one of the early adopter Karoo users. It was a tough year but even now, for some of the issues it has, it is still my goto bike computer especially if I'm doing any navigation. The maps are better than what Garmin has by a fair amount. If you side load Osmand you can have maps that are incredible. The display and the Android OS are game changers IMO. Very easy import of Ride with GPS, Komoot, Strava, or there third party routes. The dashboard is as functional from a cell phone as it is on a lap top and changes are instantaneously synced with the Karoo.

FWIW, you don't need to wait until you're on land based WiFi to connect. Most phones have the capability to act as hotspots and that takes care of the upload right there. You can also insert a SIM card and do it directly over the cellular network. Freedomp Pop has SIM cards that are free for under 200MB per month and that works easily for most people.

WIth it, I get the capability for voice turn by turn directions (a real luxury in bike computers - you don't have to look at it using Osmand or Komoot as sideloaded android apps). I have side loaded apps like Zello that, with an earbud, allow me to use the bike computer as a walkie talkie to others in the group. That's a great feature when you're on a long ride with other that may have different interests along the way. I also have a color weather radar app for when I'm riding and bad weather is near. Makes it easy to dodge the rain or when to decide to hide and wait it out. Don't know of any other bike computers that can do that and that is a game changing advantage in my book.

That said, my backup is my Wahoo Element. It's simple and it's bulletproof.