Mr. Hairy Legs

Motor Vehicle Act

FBinNY 

I suspect that this may be a case of where normal sloppiness that rarely makes a difference did this time.

It's pretty common for drivers to cut sharp left turns. Double lines don't change habits, so while whoever crossed the center line is responsible, what's done is done, and will be sorted out in the courts.

However, people should think about the future. Possibly some of the bend can be straightened out, a least on one side, or maybe they can add a stop sign right at the bend to slow people enough that they square the corner properly.

IMO - an effective solution could be implemented for a reasonable cost by placing breakaway traffic delineators down the center line at the bend. These will force traffic to respect the center line, and reduce the chances of collisions significantly. Odds are that breakaway is necessary because a permanent divider may make it impossible for fire trucks to pass.

Again, condolences to the family, and let's challenge the locals to find ways to prevent a repeat.

FBinNY 

2nd thoughts about causation and contributory factors. What follows may upset some, and I've no interest in fighting over it, nor assigning "blame" here, but there is a bit of a cautionary tale for cyclists.

I live by "there are no rules, everything is a situation" so with that in mind, consider the riders riding in close order, possible double file. I'm not interested in what the law is, but am in what makes sense, and how poor decisions make bad situations worse.

IME (experience = 50+ years of active rad cycling) close order riding is more suited to closed circuits where there's low risk of surprises. But even with pro riders on closed circuits, we still see multiple rider pileups when there's a "surprise" like a traffic island.

In the real world there are far too many surprises for close order riding, and this event shows how it can multiply the tragedy.

A single rider, might have been able to cut to the inside corner and possibly dodge the car, or at least changed a head on to a glancing impact, with possibly reduced consequences. We'll never know that, and even if true, that doesn't excuse the driver (if he crossed the center line). However one thing we do know is that the close formation reduced or eliminated the chance of the outer rider(s) moving to avoid the collision, and converted what would have been a single bike crash to a multiple one.

DO not read this as "do not ride in close formation". The increased risk shouldn't imply that it should never be done, but as I said, there are situations, and close order riding should be limited to open roads with few intersections and low potential for surprises. IMO riding close order in that spot on that road was foolish. It didn't cause the collision, but for most of the riders, made a significant difference in the outcome.

Mr. Hairy Legs

I had the same thoughts exactly.

berner

Something along this line would be a good idea. For the time being my solution to people cutting corners, especially when I'm on the bike, is to be hyper vigilant on such corners. A year ago, or so, one local town cut rumble strips at the side of a two lane road that had no shoulder. This put cyclists further out into the lane. Our club contacted the highway to point out that was unsafe for cyclists. A month later, the rumble strip divits had been filled in and rumble strips cut into the center of the road between lanes. Evidently, rumble strips are easy to produce on existing roadways so this may be a solution to the problem of cutting corners.

mr_bill

TV report, look particularly at 0:24 seconds. (Telephoto lens from where the police closed the road. At 0:40 second you can see where the photographer setup, then cut to another zoom at 0:44)


Note the 7666 sign on the utility pole, and note the 7666 sign at 0:24 and 0:44 above.

View from where the photographer setup.

Where the driver of the SUV stopped.

It's possible that the crash took place about 100 meters away from where many folks think it happened.

-mr. bill

Mr. Hairy Legs

Yeah it's possible the curve had nothing to do with it and the driver was either passing another cyclist or looking at his phone, or perhaps floored it and fishtailed. Who knows.

[edit] I think you're right - I looked up the resident's 411 entry and it is five houses west of the curve.

CB HI

Why is there even an ASSUMPTION that the cyclist were riding double. Did the cyclist not have full use of the lane? Was a cyclist in the center of the lane riding single fill to avoid debris? Is it even illegal to ride double, since it seems no motorist were behind the cyclist?

The cops and your assumptions wrongly imply blame on the cyclist. Cyclist really do not need such assumption advice fro the cop and you.

Seems like making such assumptions is a psycho way of making yourself feel safe riding by claiming the other cyclist ride in a way you thing is wrong and dangerous, so the way you ride helps you feel warm and fuzzy.

gregf83 

Single, double or triple is a red herring in this case if they were on their side of the yellow line. It's possible they crossed the double line but very unlikely as there is no reason for them to do so and cyclists tend not to get distracted and drift from one lane to the other.

This location is not where I thought it was and although the tele-photo shots make it look like a corner is really just a slight curve in the road. I'll be curious to see the results of the investigation but it appears the driver drifted into the wrong lane.

Regarding riding two-up on River Rd, I would say it is generally safer to ride two-up (notwithstanding regulations . It's a narrow road with no shoulder so riding single often provides the invitation for vehicles to attempt an unsafe pass. Two-up forces the vehicles to wait until the road is clear before passing. That section of road has been extremely popular with cyclists for many years and fortunately incidents like this are relatively rare.

GamblerGORD53

Did you look at the WHOLE video??? Right THERE was a pack of 12 riders 3 or 4 abreast. How the hell does a following car see around ??? Going all the way to the center lines is stupid, for sure.

Looks like the car hit them head on to me, nasty. The 5 bikes in the truck were all metal I believe. Poor road for short cutting cars. RIP

AdvXtrm

Sounds like the local crooks (government) should be begged into having the curve re-engineered for safety; muh roads!!!!

FBinNY 

The ONLY causative factor is who crossed the center line and was on the wrong side of the road.

If riding abreast were an issue, we'd have a scenario where the outermost (nearest to centerline) rider(s) were struck, while those to the right weren't. Also the car would only have been damaged in the front left corner.

From the description, and photos, it appears that the there was near full overlap of the car and riders, so either the car was well across the centerline, or all the riders were (which seems very unlikely). Riding abreast doesn't magically lure drivers across the line, so should not be considered as a factor.

As far as I've concerned, the riders could have been riding shoulder to shoulder 6 abreast across their full lane and it still wouldn't matter as far as responsibility for causing the crash is concerned. So, the how many abreast argument is a strawman, and hopefully the police and courts will reject it as such.

Rollfast

And how many millions more to do that versus putting up a few blunt signs that say single file or you'll get killed?


I could swear Canadians are more to the point than us.


You may still believe that they print pictures of the Queen with numbers on paper with impunity and everyone in BC is much richer than they are.


It's a beautiful place, that's why it's on the license plates but please.

FBinNY 

There's no evidence that riding single file would have prevented the crash. The most that can be inferred is that riding single file MIGHT have reduced the number of riders involved.

I don't know about Canada, but here in the USA a large percentage, if not a majority, of riders killed in traffic events are riding solo, so unless shadows count, there's little reason to look at riding abreast as a meaningful factor.

Rollfast

Unless it has been stated that going around that corner is a blind spot. If you have two lanes, somebody should be in one lane going in one direction and ditto for the other side.


Somebody didn't do that. Maybe the car took that curve too fast and went wide. Staying single file would put them over there, not closer to here.


Other than an English tutorial, it's awfully obvious.


Academic like a retired teacher now though.

Miele Man

A number of years ago in Quebec, Canada a motorist on a long stretch or straight road plowed into the rear of a group of bicyclists and killed some of them. This was in broad daylight and in good weather. Turns out the driver had worked a double shift, set the vehicle on cruise control and fell asleep at the wheel.

These days a bicyclist has to be vigilant at all times because there are so many in car distractions, such as cell phones, fatigue issues of drivers and just plain impatience or rage of drivers. It's why i like a Takealook mirror on my glasses so I can keep an eye on what's going on behind me as well as what's ahead. Sometimes though Lady Luck abandons a bicyclist (or other driver) and they get hit by another poor driver.

Cheers

Miele Man

Where I live there's a narrow winding and hilly road that leads out into the country. A number of years ago the city wanted to improve that road by taking out a couple of blind corners and lowering the steepness of at least one hill plus adding an area to the side of the road so there would be a shoulder. There was only a guardrail right beside the paved lane on one side of the road. Well what happened? The wealthy people in the area got together and launched a huge protest that put a stop to every recommended improvement of that road. that despite the city lawyers telling the city that because the road does NOT meet Provincial standards and thus is deemed unsafe and the city knows this, that the city and the council could be sued if.when there's a bad accident on that road. Sometimes it's nearly impossible to get something done.

Cheers

Mr. Hairy Legs

Yes, as previously mentioned.

Cipo

Here is an account of what happened from one of the injured cyclists. It was passed along by the cyclist's employer with permission to circulate:

FBinNY 

The account seems plausible enough except for a detail. If the riders were headed East, and the driver came from the West, then he was behind them.

However, it seems clear that the rider was talking about a head-on, so I assume he got messed up with the came from/headed to directions involved.

I am curious on one point, and maybe a local can explain.

Is blood testing (alcohol and/or drugs) mandatory after collisions with fatalities? That might help explain WHY it happened. But if the evidence clearly shows the car driving on the wrong side of the road, we know HOW it happened.

--------------------

BTW - this kind of post traumatic confusion can come back to bite you, which is one reason not to "remember" what happened until your head is fully cleared. It's also one reason, not to report your version of events on a public forum.

If Cipo wants to delete his post, I'll follow by deleting mine.

Chris0516

That is just plain stupid. Because the same could be said about being behind a 18-wheeler. Yes, There were 3-4 abreast. But the oncoming traffic was still visible. They also were not using the whole road, just the lane.

Mr. Hairy Legs

Interesting. Almost sounds like a crime of passion.

gregf83 

i don't know if it's mandatory for a blood test but they can certainly do a breathalyzer. It was 10 in the morning though so I'd be a little surprised if alcohol was a factor. It does seem awfully strange. Just rode past the site 20 min ago and I have to admit I was looking over my shoulder more often than normal.

FBinNY 

Breathalyzers aren't enough these days. With more and more drugs in use, including both legal and illegal, post accident blood panels need to become SOP whenever there's a serious injury or fatality.

(sorry for the soapbox speech, short as it was).

CB HI

So the cyclist were riding single file, yet the motorist managed to hit all the cyclist.

So Mr. Hairy Legs wrongly blamed the victims to try and advance his own agenda.

What will Mr. Hairy Legs try to blame the victims with now?