iab

I'm going to get another bike and want it to be 1x12, Campagnolo, disc brakes, mechanical and most importantly, silver. So the setup would be,

Chorus 12 levers (I'll strip the black anodizing, making them silver)
Centaur 11 crank
Centaur 11 RD
Any 12 Campagnolo cassette that is silver

So will the Centaur 11 RD work with the Chorus 12 levers and 12 cassette? Will the Centaur 11 chainring work with the 12 chain? (not a huge concern, I can use a Chorus chainring and strip the anodising)

Leinster

I don't know, but tell me more about stripping the anodizing? I would absolutely like to do that on my Athena shifters.

iab

Sloppy method - oven cleaner. Precise slow method - sandpaper (220-400-600-1000-1500-2000).

gfk_velo

No, the Centaur 11 shifting system is stand-alone within the Campagnolo groupsets - it has nothing in common with any other shift lever / rear derailleur that Campagnolo make or have made, other than the fact that the RD / RH lever combination produces the same movement increment as the other 11s systems.

None of the other 11s RDs have anything in common with the 12s system, either.
You can't marry an 11s RD to a 12s lever and gain correct shifting with a 12s cassette.

iab

Thanks! I'll make new plans.

DaveSSS 

The crank and chain rings may be useable. Worth a try, but there's also the fact that buying an entire group usually saves money. When I made the switch, I bought whole groups and sold the old parts on Ebay.

sced

Why did Campagnolo forsake derailleur+shifter interoperability with 11spd Athena, Potenza, and Centaur?

gfk_velo

They didn't.
Successive Campagnolo ranges since 1999-2000 have segmented to varying degrees.
Escape type levers did not work as predictably and accurately with and the 9 & 10s rear dearailleurs designed for full ErgoPower (non Escape) levers. Escape started in 2002, spreading up-range from Xenon.
Proper function of Quick Shift required a correct combination of a QS FD and a QS lever, this change in 2007 but not in all models.
Veloce and Centaur 10s UltraShift at lauch required re-worked RDs to function correctly, inter-opeability with Escape-type RDs (introduced 2006 in the Veloce and Centaur ranges) was not guaranteed.
Athena, after the second year of 11s, changed to PowerShift to maintain cost and market segmentation criteria.
Potenza was the direct replacment for Athena.
Centaur shifting is destined to be the entry-level group for the forseeable future and so remains non-interoperable with higher groups which are all going / are 12s or being removed from the range in 2021.
It's just part of responding to the market's gradually-changing requirements in terms of price point and functionalisty.

gfk_velo

Campagnolo don't recommend any intermix of 11 and 12s apart from the brakes, BB cups and cassette bodies.

Intermixing the crankset / FD is not recommended as the front shift can be unpredictable.

The chain can ride the inner chainring on downshift and can find it's way between the FD and the outer chainring on upshift using the 11s FD ... if you use the 11s crankset and the 12s FD to try and better control the chain, it is difficult to set the FD to obtain predictable front shifts especially under higher torque loads (part of the design criteria of 12s) as the chainring spacing is wrong and the 11s chainring tooth roots are 0.3mm wider in 11s than in 12s ... so the 12s chain can tend to "hang" especially in high chain-cross situations. The difference in chainring tooth root dimensions can also lead to possible early wear and tear issues..

Our own internal experience of trying to intermix at Velotech, during the testing phase and in trying to help customers to migrate across from 11s to 12s in an incrimental fashion have not been positive.

FWIW, all warranty liability is denied in the event of attempting an intermix of 11 and 12s components where those parts are not explicitly recommended as compatible.

iab

First, thanks for taking the time to type such a detailed response, it is very much appreciated.

If I am running a 1x12, no FD, is chainring width a factor between 11 and 12? Other than cross chaining, I can't see a reason to worry.

gfk_velo

Depends on the chainring.
As I mentioned, the root of the chainring tooth is 11s is wider than in 12s, what the effect of that might be on a 12s chain is not something I'd care to comment on and as far as I know, it's never been tested at Campagnolo.

DaveSSS 

The black chorus 12 levers are not anodized, they are painted black with a clear coat.

From what I've read, a good 1x setup needs a narrow/wide chain ring.

Campy will introduce their first 1x group called Ekar, late September. It will be 1x13 and have a 9-42 cassette. It will be mechanical and most likely at a moderate price, but certainly not centaur low.

Campy has already released info on their new freehub body that allows the 9 or 10T sprocket. It will be compatible with older Campy wheels.

iab

Thanks Dave. Hopefully they offer Ekar in silver.

UsedToBeFaster

Does anyone else think Potenza seems an odd name. It just doesnt sound right and not Italinan.

sced

Google translate says it means "power" in Italian

mrblue

"Potenza" loosely translated means "potentially Chorus...NOT"

Actually, I had a Potenza groupset and it sucked. Three failed rear derailleurs in a year. Made the quick switch to Ultegra and never looked back.

Leinster

Cross-threading here. Did anyone think of suggesting you switch to a Chorus RD?

mrblue

Yes, I did consider that but by that point I was so annoyed and angry and didn't want to dump any more money into it. I just wanted the entire groupset off my bike.

gfk_velo

What was the nature of the failure?


If you had three failures in a year, the chances of that happening through any failure in QC are incredibly small. On a straight statistical risk (as the UK Service Manager I know the percentage failure rate), were you in the UK, I'd say your chances of winning on the National Lottery would be higher!

gfk_velo

Would lead to potential early failure of the PowerShift's escapement mechanism due to increased wear and tear on some of the internal parts of the lever, most notably, the timing ratchet mechanism.
The reverse-pull exerted by the RD in a PowerShift compatible RD such as Potenza is 15% lower than that exerted by a RD for UltraShift (CH, RE and SR).

This is the reason that Campagnolo don't recommend it.

Similarly, using a PO RD is not recommended with CH, RE and SR levers, even though in post 2015 levers, the cable pull ratio is the same as PO.

The lower reverse pull on the PO RD means that adjustment range is smaller, performance under dirt / chain and cassette wear and tear suffers and more complex cable runs (so higher cable friction) can cause further issues.
The reason is that part of the reverse pull on the cable is used to facilitate the "over-shift" mechanism in the lever that helps the chain from a small sprocket to a bigger one. The over-shift is performed by a different mechanism in PowerShift, compared to UltraShift. In UltraShift it requires approx 150g more reverse pull than it does in PowerShift.

vespasianus

Actually finding a rear chorus RD (most likely would need a medium cage as well) is hard - believe me!

That said, three failures suggests something important.

Also, I initially purchased H11 shifters and used them with a Centaur RD. I purchased this because of the listing on Merlin's web-site stating that they were compatible with all Campagnolo mechanical group sets. Someone should ask Merlin to change their web-site.

It worked fine but I decided to buy more centaur parts to upgrade another bike and found a chorus medium cage RD to pair with the H11 system. I have spent lots of time on Shimano 105 (and Ultegra bikes for that matter) and Centaur feels just as good. Can't say anything about durability but honestly, Centaur is really nice.

mrblue

Two RD's failed in the same manner in that they both developed an odd "click point" in one of their pivot points. This prevented the RD from shifting from a larger cog to a smaller cog (can't recall the exact cogs). The third RD failed in that the main spring in the part that attaches to the derailleur hanger became disconnected from the "techno-polymer" body leaving me with an limp RD that just flopped around.

jad3675

I suffered the same 'limp-d' issue with about ~500 miles on the derailleur. I was able to dissemble the RD and get the hook of the spring back into the groove in the pivot point - it appears that it wasn't assembled properly at the factory. 3500 miles and a year later and it hasn't failed again. I also had the shift lever on the left hood break at the pivot while I was setting up the FD. That was replaced under warranty.

Between Campagnolo and my love of old Ducati motorcycles, I appear to be a glutton for Italian branded punishment.

John

mrblue

Yes. I was able to do the same thing. Twice. And each time it failed again.

jad3675

Oh, wonderful. I hope I don't have a time-bomb hanging out there.