‘74 Raleigh headset servicing
07-07-20, 08:44 PM
#26
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It's not a Raleigh 26 tpi headset, so that's good. Raleighs of the 70s are said to have been fitted with headsets with 30.0mm cups. Before shimming the cup, I'd get an accurate as possible measurement of the cup mating surface and see if it's less than 30.2 mm. If it is, and if the headtube is not out of round or larger than 30.2, I'd buy a modern iso headset and install that sucker. Although the Raleigh headtubes that I've measured have been about 30.0 mm, ISO headsets, like modern Tange Levin, press right in with the interference fit. If you do decide to replace the headset, pop the crown race off the fork and measure the fork surface that will hold the crown race. Lots of Raleighs had 27.0 mm while most would have been 26.4 mm. Headsets like the Tange Levin are available with either 26.4 mm or 27.0 mm crown race dimension. Cups are 30.2 mm (though there is a JIS version with 30.2 mm) with either crown race.
Personally, I heart the Tange Levin headsets. They are cheap but well made, look good on vintage steel, and have a short stack height so it's unlikely to find a fork/headtube that it won't work on. Just add some spacers to make everything happy.
Personally, I heart the Tange Levin headsets. They are cheap but well made, look good on vintage steel, and have a short stack height so it's unlikely to find a fork/headtube that it won't work on. Just add some spacers to make everything happy.
these parameters are all valuable to be aware of.
when it comes to comtemplating a HS change one which needs to be considered is stack height.
this measurement for the Alatet is 36.1mm.
this limits one's options in terms of contemporaneous first quality replacement candidates since sets such as Campag R/NR & Zeus GS/Criterium have stack heights of about 40.0mm.
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regarding the milling of the head tube -
forgot to mention earlier that it is clear from the closeup images of the bicycle's BOCAMA Professionnel headlugs that Worksop employed a chamfer cutter. these are difficult to find today. manufacturers seem to have discontinued their use. VAR for example, no longer offers one for their head mill. milling the head with a flat mill will do nothing to improve alignment/fit as the races sit down in the chamfer.
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07-07-20, 09:59 PM
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--- regarding the milling of the head tube -
forgot to mention earlier that it is clear from the closeup images of the bicycle's BOCAMA Professionnel headlugs that Worksop employed a chamfer cutter. these are difficult to find today. manufacturers seem to have discontinued their use. VAR for example, no longer offers one for their head mill. milling the head with a flat mill will do nothing to improve alignment/fit as the races sit down in the chamfer.
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--- regarding the milling of the head tube -
forgot to mention earlier that it is clear from the closeup images of the bicycle's BOCAMA Professionnel headlugs that Worksop employed a chamfer cutter. these are difficult to find today. manufacturers seem to have discontinued their use. VAR for example, no longer offers one for their head mill. milling the head with a flat mill will do nothing to improve alignment/fit as the races sit down in the chamfer.
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1978 Super Grand Prix
1972 Grand Prix
1972 Super Course
Last edited by branko_76; 07-07-20 at 10:07 PM.
07-08-20, 07:30 AM
#28
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jpjpjp
Where do you live? One of the great benefits of this forum is that you may be very close to someone with lots of experience in the very problem you're trying to solve. If you were within driving distance of Portland, Oregon, for example, I'd be happy to take a look at your frame.
Where do you live? One of the great benefits of this forum is that you may be very close to someone with lots of experience in the very problem you're trying to solve. If you were within driving distance of Portland, Oregon, for example, I'd be happy to take a look at your frame.
The Tange Levin solution is attractive, so I will look into it. But I’m still leaning toward the shin, just for the sake of ease and keeping the original hardware...
07-08-20, 07:31 AM
#29
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A few things:
- The vertical fit as shown by the OP is correct - the angled edge is supposed to be there, whether the frame is chamfered or not.
- That's not the original Raleigh/Carlton headset on it right now.
- Though I'd usually recommend facing, I'd avoid it here, only as the current cup leaves a fair amount of the lug surface exposed, which will be left in bare steel to rust. Touching it up is an idea, but it'd undo all of the facing.
- Assuming that the frame is distorted, I'd use Loctite retaining compound, like #603 or #609 . This isn't the same as threadlocker. It's specifically designed for bonding cylindrical slip, press, or shrink fits - or rather, taking up the gap of a bad fit.
-Kurt
- The vertical fit as shown by the OP is correct - the angled edge is supposed to be there, whether the frame is chamfered or not.
- That's not the original Raleigh/Carlton headset on it right now.
- Though I'd usually recommend facing, I'd avoid it here, only as the current cup leaves a fair amount of the lug surface exposed, which will be left in bare steel to rust. Touching it up is an idea, but it'd undo all of the facing.
- Assuming that the frame is distorted, I'd use Loctite retaining compound, like #603 or #609 . This isn't the same as threadlocker. It's specifically designed for bonding cylindrical slip, press, or shrink fits - or rather, taking up the gap of a bad fit.
-Kurt
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07-08-20, 08:58 AM
#30
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A few things:
- The vertical fit as shown by the OP is correct - the angled edge is supposed to be there, whether the frame is chamfered or not.
- That's not the original Raleigh/Carlton headset on it right now.
- Though I'd usually recommend facing, I'd avoid it here, only as the current cup leaves a fair amount of the lug surface exposed, which will be left in bare steel to rust. Touching it up is an idea, but it'd undo all of the facing.
- Assuming that the frame is distorted, I'd use Loctite retaining compound, like #603 or #609 . This isn't the same as threadlocker. It's specifically designed for bonding cylindrical slip, press, or shrink fits - or rather, taking up the gap of a bad fit.
-Kurt
- The vertical fit as shown by the OP is correct - the angled edge is supposed to be there, whether the frame is chamfered or not.
- That's not the original Raleigh/Carlton headset on it right now.
- Though I'd usually recommend facing, I'd avoid it here, only as the current cup leaves a fair amount of the lug surface exposed, which will be left in bare steel to rust. Touching it up is an idea, but it'd undo all of the facing.
- Assuming that the frame is distorted, I'd use Loctite retaining compound, like #603 or #609 . This isn't the same as threadlocker. It's specifically designed for bonding cylindrical slip, press, or shrink fits - or rather, taking up the gap of a bad fit.
-Kurt
Also, if you are correct in pointing out that this is not the original headset, is it possible that it is slightly too small? It appears to have a 30 mm outer diameter.
Appreciate it.
07-08-20, 09:09 AM
#31
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However, if I recall, 603 isn't the ideal retaining compound for the application; I believe there's one designed for larger gaps.
Both ISO and Raleigh spec should be 30mm. ISO, Campy, and Italian headsets are 30.2mm. There's a possibility that someone reamed it out for the latter, but then the fork would be 24tpi and not 26tpi.
Check the headset vs. the inside of the headtube with a caliper to verify. Also check the threading of the fork.
-Kurt
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07-08-20, 10:17 AM
#32
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Loctite retaining compound is quite different than Loctite thread locker. It's specifically designed to bond slip-fit joints, such as gears to shafts. It's basically a liquid that turns into a solid, expanding between the cylindrical parts. I've used 603 once before on a frame with a upper headtube area that's been gouged out a bit too much - same thing as you're experiencing.
However, if I recall, 603 isn't the ideal retaining compound for the application; I believe there's one designed for larger gaps.
Both ISO and Raleigh spec should be 30mm. ISO, Campy, and Italian headsets are 30.2mm. There's a possibility that someone reamed it out for the latter, but then the fork would be 24tpi and not 26tpi.
Check the headset vs. the inside of the headtube with a caliper to verify. Also check the threading of the fork.
-Kurt
However, if I recall, 603 isn't the ideal retaining compound for the application; I believe there's one designed for larger gaps.
Both ISO and Raleigh spec should be 30mm. ISO, Campy, and Italian headsets are 30.2mm. There's a possibility that someone reamed it out for the latter, but then the fork would be 24tpi and not 26tpi.
Check the headset vs. the inside of the headtube with a caliper to verify. Also check the threading of the fork.
-Kurt
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07-08-20, 11:49 AM
#33
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Intriguing. How permanent is it? Would it yield, for example, to the use of a Park Tool headset race remover?
07-08-20, 11:54 AM
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Think of 603 like "stuck seatpost in a bottle." It'd be a disaster on any of those parts due to their design, but a headset raceway doesn't really present the same issue. The remover puts more than enough force on the cup and there isn't enough surface to prevent movement.
I would never use it on a proper-fitting headset though. It might tighten things up a bit too much (but still be removable)
-Kurt
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07-08-20, 03:07 PM
#35
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Update:
Finally yielded and took it to a shop. They recommended just wrapping some teflon (plumber’s) tape around the race and squeezing it in. They were out of bearings so I still have to get those from another shop.... But seems like a quick and easy alternative to other forms of shimming. They did it right there at no charge and it feels pretty snug. Will it hold up? Time will tell...
Finally yielded and took it to a shop. They recommended just wrapping some teflon (plumber’s) tape around the race and squeezing it in. They were out of bearings so I still have to get those from another shop.... But seems like a quick and easy alternative to other forms of shimming. They did it right there at no charge and it feels pretty snug. Will it hold up? Time will tell...
07-08-20, 04:41 PM
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07-08-20, 05:02 PM
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bearings tip -
they can be purchased at much lower cost from an industrial supply house such as McMaster-Carr than from a bike shop.
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bearings tip -
they can be purchased at much lower cost from an industrial supply house such as McMaster-Carr than from a bike shop.
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07-08-20, 05:57 PM
#40
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I'm not sure of all the Loctite offerings, but the bearing mount that I'm familiar with requires big heat to disassemble. Check specs on whatever is considered to see whether it requires heat or just shear force.
07-09-20, 05:38 AM
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07-09-20, 06:41 AM
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A couple of things:
1. Whether it is the right or wrong upper raceway, the frame is supposed to be 30.0mm, and so should the raceway. The only other headset sizes go up, which is why I was curious as to the headtube bore.
2. It's been a while since I tinkered with that particular headset, but I do recognize the completed headset as being a proper Raleigh / Carlton headset for a Grand Sport.
3. I think everyone is expecting this headset raceway instead, which is the one associated with the thicker, flatter Raleigh headsets used on the Sports and many other models.
It's obviously a better design for holding loose bearing balls, but I can't say whether it's supposed to be the raceway included with your headset. But it was irrelevant for the question at hand: Regardless of the cup, either shouldn't be smaller than 30mm in diameter, indicating that the frame needed scrutiny.
Since the shop has since assembled it, we won't know. Curious to hear how the Teflon holds up.
-Kurt
1. Whether it is the right or wrong upper raceway, the frame is supposed to be 30.0mm, and so should the raceway. The only other headset sizes go up, which is why I was curious as to the headtube bore.
2. It's been a while since I tinkered with that particular headset, but I do recognize the completed headset as being a proper Raleigh / Carlton headset for a Grand Sport.
3. I think everyone is expecting this headset raceway instead, which is the one associated with the thicker, flatter Raleigh headsets used on the Sports and many other models.
It's obviously a better design for holding loose bearing balls, but I can't say whether it's supposed to be the raceway included with your headset. But it was irrelevant for the question at hand: Regardless of the cup, either shouldn't be smaller than 30mm in diameter, indicating that the frame needed scrutiny.
Since the shop has since assembled it, we won't know. Curious to hear how the Teflon holds up.
-Kurt
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07-09-20, 06:54 AM
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cudak888 , 
07-09-20, 06:58 AM
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07-09-20, 03:48 PM
#45
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I appreciate all the input. I know the upper race was at 30mm when measured by the bike shop. As far as the head tube, I am not sure. I am poor in tools but should really have a simple caliper by now....
i will let you know how the teflon holds up. Probably when it wears and fails. 😅
i will let you know how the teflon holds up. Probably when it wears and fails. 😅
