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Old 02-15-19, 04:12 PM
  #51  
Rajflyboy
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
As someone who is neither American nor European (so, in theory at least, an unbiased observer) I would say this is not true.
Europe did nothing about cheating in bicycle racing ? USA did.
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Old 02-15-19, 06:25 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post


Europe did nothing about cheating in bicycle racing ? USA did.
"Europe" has caught other dopers. Furthermore, there were plenty of Americans who worked to cover up what Lance did., and many more who sponsored or supported him despite knowing he was almost certainly doping.

I suppose this would be the time to point out that Lance's American team ran the most extensive and sophisticated doping system the sport has seen.
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Old 02-16-19, 12:44 AM
  #53  
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In the end, is the entertainment, the profession, better?
I'm wondering if that was the most sophisticated doping system in sports. I doubt it.
The sports that "hide it" seem to be doing quite well.
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Old 02-16-19, 04:49 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Its antihistamine season ... bring it on..
pure gold.
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Old 02-16-19, 05:27 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post


we are Less corrupt in America than the Euro people are
Bollocks. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...cases_in_sport
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Old 02-16-19, 06:34 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
In the end, is the entertainment, the profession, better?
I'm wondering if that was the most sophisticated doping system in sports. I doubt it.
The sports that "hide it" seem to be doing quite well.
this
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Old 02-16-19, 07:58 AM
  #57  
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You don't seem to know much about the outside world, Rajflyboy. There are no euro peoples, but countries with their own governments and people often speaking a totally different language. The euro is a currency being used by 23 countries - you understand the difference between a currency and the French, Germans and all the other countries that use it? The European Union, commonly known as the EU, is essentially an expanded custom zone trying, and mostly succeeding, in making life easier for people who are living here. We still don't have a common language, but going from point a to point b is much easier.

I have to say the French and Germans, not to mention Portuguese, but sadly not my own people, have found this makes life a lot easier, economically, socially and, in fact, in everyday life. We have no borders per se within the EU, although each country has its own police force, army, airforce and whatever. We even tolerate huge US camps, which probably haven't been required for many years.There is a reasonable why the EU won the Nobel Peace prize, by the way, but I'm not aware of any other country or group of countries having won one.

You may know all this, and simply wish to stir up trouble. If you genuinely didn't, then I hope this small explanation helps.
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Old 02-16-19, 08:47 AM
  #58  
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Doping is usually meant to mean the illegal use of drugs. Legal use would not be doping. My recommendation that we make most (not all) drugs legal solves the doping problem.
​​​
The International Association of Athletics Federations consist of 17 countries agreement on how to make competition fair (my words). While generally running, Track&Field and not concerned with cycling, they deal with WADA too, so this is interesting as it relates to cycling doping.

Sports at the top level, or the IAAF in this example, don't seem to see the use of chemicals taken by humans, or not as an ethical issue, so it seems below.
The idea that people would then need to take drugs to be able to compete is about as absurd as forcing someone natural to take drugs in order to compete.
Other than the open class (pro men) there is really no way to make things fair IMO and they should not mess with it.

Still using drug to try to make it fair, shows what is really thought about drugs by the I.A.A.F., at least - nothing. It is a "fix" to a natural condition.

Last edited by Doge; 02-16-19 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 02-16-19, 09:05 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by avole View Post
Determining corruption by this definition https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/corruption, is hard.

Doping is not reported equally in all sports or from all organizations. It was/has been a regular thing, which is why there are so many threads about it. It influences much more than just those that do it and many benefit. Owners, fans, teammates are some.

I *think* Peyton Manning (a retired NFL QB for those that don't know) did not dope. I *think* he benefited from it it one of his defenders did. And I think that is likely. I also think it is likely it would never be reported. So if part of the job is getting big, and "everyone else is doing it" and it is not reported, or tested, it is hard to get any stats on it being corrupt or not.
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Old 02-16-19, 09:54 AM
  #60  
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I don't really know why you quoted my post, which was in response to Rajflyboy's drivel, as quoted in that post.
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Old 02-16-19, 04:01 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by avole View Post
You don't seem to know much about the outside world, Rajflyboy. There are no euro peoples, but countries with their own governments and people often speaking a totally different language. The euro is a currency being used by 23 countries - you understand the difference between a currency and the French, Germans and all the other countries that use it? The European Union, commonly known as the EU, is essentially an expanded custom zone trying, and mostly succeeding, in making life easier for people who are living here. We still don't have a common language, but going from point a to point b is much easier.

I have to say the French and Germans, not to mention Portuguese, but sadly not my own people, have found this makes life a lot easier, economically, socially and, in fact, in everyday life. We have no borders per se within the EU, although each country has its own police force, army, airforce and whatever. We even tolerate huge US camps, which probably haven't been required for many years.There is a reasonable why the EU won the Nobel Peace prize, by the way, but I'm not aware of any other country or group of countries having won one.

You may know all this, and simply wish to stir up trouble. If you genuinely didn't, then I hope this small explanation helps.
UCI = Europe in bicycle racing circles in my opinion. They muck up bike racing in my opinion. We could run it better right here in the US of A.

but yes Europe is full of countries
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Old 02-16-19, 04:02 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Determining corruption by this definition https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/corruption, is hard.

Doping is not reported equally in all sports or from all organizations. It was/has been a regular thing, which is why there are so many threads about it. It influences much more than just those that do it and many benefit. Owners, fans, teammates are some.

I *think* Peyton Manning (a retired NFL QB for those that don't know) did not dope. I *think* he benefited from it it one of his defenders did. And I think that is likely. I also think it is likely it would never be reported. So if part of the job is getting big, and "everyone else is doing it" and it is not reported, or tested, it is hard to get any stats on it being corrupt or not.
great post

you get it
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Old 02-16-19, 04:17 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by avole View Post
I don't really know why you quoted my post, which was in response to Rajflyboy's drivel, as quoted in that post.
I quoted your post because the link is about reported doping cases. Which is not useful for any kind of determination on who dopes more.

There are all kinds of things we don't enforce - "California Stop", etc. A report has little relevance on it happening or not, unless we know there is consistent enforcement. We do tend to record every homicide, those are good numbers. We have no idea, not do we want one IMO, of what athletes are doping. Cycling got picked, thanks mostly to USADA Travis.

I do think using chemicals is more accepted in Europe than in the USA. As shown by the suggestion of requiring chemicals for those naturally high in T - see video above. USA is quite concerned about things that go in the body.

European sports have a different view about stuff. USA turned the beautiful game (soccer) into NFL where we review everything on video. Soccer - the referee just decides - done. That is different. I have officiated in Europe and the USA - it is different. Take that to cycling, some stuff that does not matter do much is a big deal here.

Eddy Merckx was caught doping and penalized more times than Lance. No biggie. But when it came to motors in bikes he spoke up - ban them for life.

Last edited by Doge; 02-16-19 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 02-16-19, 08:14 PM
  #64  
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As usual, no evidence whatsoever, just careful avoidance of the point, plus absolutely no refutation if your anti-european bias. I realise you two are (hopefully) in the minority, but you could make some effort to respect those who don’t live in the landmass you share with two other nations. It isn’t our fault that the biggest frauds and liars in doping history came from your side of the pond.

The only difference in attitudes is in your respective heads.

Doping is doping, and everybody should be attempting to keep sport clean.

F. Scott Fitzgerald had it right: “The best of America drifts to Paris. The American in Paris is the best American. It is more fun for an intelligent person to live in an intelligent country. France has the only two things toward which we drift as we grow older—intelligence and good manners.”

Paris is the capital of France, which is in Europe.

Last edited by avole; 02-16-19 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 02-17-19, 10:36 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by avole View Post
As usual, no evidence whatsoever, just careful avoidance of the point, plus absolutely no refutation if your anti-european bias. ...
I'm not sure which post you are referring to. I did cite rulings in my post. I doubt I mentioned cheating, but I am not planning to look. I didn't think I had negative bias in my post. I rather enjoy many parts of Europe having made about 50 trips over as many years. But I don't think everything is all the same between European countries, the EU , Eastern Europe - or the USA.

Clearly the continents are different, certainly based on sports that are popular. Cycling being one of them. But even football/soccer is played and officiated differently depending which country you are in.

I know of no sport more popular in Europe than in the USA where over 50% of the "game" is spent reviewing the call on the field just to get it exactly right.

Back to facts - many places allowed drug use without legal repercussions before any places in the USA did. That does not say one cheated more. It does speak to different attitudes about drugs.
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Old 02-17-19, 10:53 PM
  #66  
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Could you define a ‘fact’ for me, and an ‘assertion’? No offence, but I think you are confusing them.
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Old 02-18-19, 09:26 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post


UCI = Europe in bicycle racing circles in my opinion. They muck up bike racing in my opinion. We could run it better right here in the US of A.

but yes Europe is full of countries
USA this, USA that. Europe sucks this, Europe sucks that. You really sound like a prototypical ignorant American when it comes to discussing anything outside of the USA. Not looking smart. No serious Euro is going to opine much about your opinionated drivel. But hey, it's your American right to life, liberty, and freedom of speech so carry on.
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Old 02-18-19, 11:59 AM
  #68  
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US has had trouble just having One pro level stage race and that one has little history or longevity.
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Old 02-18-19, 03:37 PM
  #69  
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If by some miracle we could all finally agree what defined doping, put it down in rules that everyone agrees to follow, then by the next race season most of us will be arguing again whether something else is or isn't doping.
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Old 02-19-19, 02:18 AM
  #70  
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Gosh! I thought that was pretty well taped. Drugs deliberately used to enhance performance in any particular sport would seem to fit the bill.
Not sure what you mean on your second clause by everyone - do you mean we, the readers and contributors to Bike Forums, or professional sportspeople? The latter would seem to make sense, the former none whatsoever. The problem is that performance enhancing drugs are a growth area are with lots of money attached, particularly on the drug masking side. I am certainly not able to say whether Wiggins or Froome have taken such drugs, although Team Sky have admitted to administering drugs to Wiggins for a known medical condition, and there are claims the nature of the drugs and dosage were more to do with enhancing performance.

You are always going to have problems with drugs bans in sport. Only darts, where alcohol is a key part, or snooker would seem to be exceptions. As to arguing whether something is or isn't doping, perhaps only the medical practitioners amongst us should be allowed to debate the issue.

Perhaps we should worry less about this, which really is only meant to enhance entertainment, and worry instead about the major issues we are facing, the end of civilisation as we know it.

Last edited by avole; 02-19-19 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 02-21-19, 05:53 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by avole View Post
Could you define a ‘fact’ for me, and an ‘assertion’? No offence, but I think you are confusing them.
Fact: Something that is real and exits.
Assertion: Something that is stated as true. It may, or may not be true, or based on facts. It is a conclusion based on facts and stated.

My assertions are my conclusions from facts. That is true.
Examples from my posts.
Fact/s:
UCI is HQ'd in Europe
FIFA has a HQ in Europe
IAAF is stating that drugs should be used and has HQ in Europe.
USADA - is USA based and went after Lance.

Assertion - Drugs in Europe are not that big a deal as compared to drugs in the USA.

I recognize that may not be true, although I have enough facts for me to make that assertion... as wrong, or as right as it may be.

Last edited by Doge; 02-21-19 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 02-21-19, 05:59 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
USA this, USA that. Europe sucks this, Europe sucks that. You really sound like a prototypical ignorant American when it comes to discussing anything outside of the USA. Not looking smart. No serious Euro is going to opine much about your opinionated drivel. But hey, it's your American right to life, liberty, and freedom of speech so carry on.
That is a made up think. What is the prototypical American? Is it one that comes from Vietnam, or Mexico - or Europe?

I don't know what a prototypical European country is either. Clearly Europe needs many countries because they are so different. They are, in need of their own countries, smaller than many USA cities because, somehow they can't agree on a language, use the same currency and defend themselves.
Until then the prototypical USA will defend them.
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Old 02-21-19, 08:32 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
...No serious Euro is going to opine much about your opinionated drivel. ...
I guess I wanted to add that I do not understand the comparison. Europe is a place, while USA is a country. I guess we could compare geography.
I see many views that are similar across Europe, while Eastern Europe and Central/Western are as different as between the USA coasts and the middle. Unless you specify a country, to compare to, it is hard. In general it is hard, as until recently most European countries were more ****geneous than USA. Where I live, European descendants are less than 50% of the population.
All that being said...
You want to make a career bike racing - move to Europe.
Want to do the same in soccer, do the same.

Make a lot of money - Europe looks a lot better than USA right now. But that is a different discussion.
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Old 02-21-19, 11:23 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Fact: Something that is real and exits.
Assertion: Something that is stated as true. It may, or may not be true, or based on facts. It is a conclusion based on facts and stated.

My assertions are my conclusions from facts. That is true.
Examples from my posts.
Fact/s:
UCI is HQ'd in Europe
FIFA has a HQ in Europe
IAAF is stating that drugs should be used and has HQ in Europe.
USADA - is USA based and went after Lance.

Assertion - Drugs in Europe are not that big a deal as compared to drugs in the USA.

I recognize that may not be true, although I have enough facts for me to make that assertion... as wrong, or as right as it may be.
Nope. See below.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...sh-french/fact No idea where you definition comes from, nor what exits what.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...lish/assertion Note the words : YOU BELIEVE . You don’t need facts to make an assertion.

The rest of your post is simply gobbledegook. It does raise a question, though: why do you North Americans hate Europe so much?



Last edited by avole; 02-21-19 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 02-21-19, 11:35 PM
  #75  
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i say there will always be a substance that can boost performance , as long as there are scientists , but doping is such a mysterious practice , people could be using the sillest thing to gain and endge , it could be some wild herb from the jungle or some hi-tech nano oxygen that wont ever show up on tests , anti doping is like anti virus software , its cant protect you from the stuff it doesnt know about , you can even argue pro cycling is built on doping of every kind , data , kit , money , all these give you an advantage , why the uci focusies on silly little things , ill never know , they always seem to ban and rule change the most pointless stuff like seat position stem length , like really .

we all know lance didn't do anything but make the Europeans look weak and silly , they couldn't stand Americans beating them at their own game .
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