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Electric speeders on the local MUP

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Electric speeders on the local MUP

Old 06-25-19, 04:27 PM
  #101  
robertorolfo
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
How is someone who is going a fairly median speed for the path being selfish?
Seems "selifish" is more the person in a well above median speed bracket, who wants everyone else to run mirrors or a swivel head to anticipate their need, rather than have the courtesy to request accommodation.
Efficient for the optimization of what variable? A bike highway would be a really interesting idea, but it's not, by the very definition, what a MUP is meant to be.
If you look at the enjoyment across the range of officially endorsed users, even limiting that to just bikes and walking, optimizing for fast cycling isn't really defensible. I've seen MUPs with 10 mph speed limits; even I find that low, and suspect it was enacted out of frustration with those doing more than twice that in close proximity to people walking. Our greenway just gained a hilly and itself contentious mandatory bike detour around a busy riverside area that had long been a point of mode conflict; and not just a peak summer hours detour, an 11 pm in snowy December one.
That's exactly the problem with those going faster than the usual expecting everyone else to proactively accommodate the mere possibility of their presence, rather than react to their courteous (and in places, legally required) requests for accommodation.
I get it; having to ask someone to move every couple of minutes must be annoying. But so would be looking behind you every 20 seconds while taking a casual walk with your friend or family. And there's no small irony, in that it's the exact some annoyance drivers have with cyclists taking the lane..
So should someone be able to setup a picnic table in the middle of an MUP? I mean, it's multi-use, right?

Aren't they paths intended for movement? And so, if shared, shouldn't we endeavor to move on them in the most efficient way possible for all involved?

If you don't feel like turning around to check for people coming up behind you, then don't ride side by side. Simple. Your desire to have a conversation while riding doesn't supersede the desire of others to travel a little faster than you (assuming no speed limit). Whenever my GF and I would come to more crowded areas (not unheard of in NYC), we would then ride single file. Because we don't expect the city to come to a stop in order to accommodate our nice ride and pleasant conversation.


And you know I'm in NY, right? You know I was riding the greenway just last night, and there was an insane amount of nonsense going on. Pedestrians walking into the path on their phones, rollerbladers on the leftmost side of the path in their direction of travel, forcing people to overtake them dangerously, morons swerving around in the lane because they want to look cool and ride with no hands, people stopping suddenly, people turning suddenly with no signal they are about to do so... It's bad enough that all of these things are selfish and show a lack of respect to fellow members of society, but it's worse that they created numerous unsafe situations for other people.
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Old 06-25-19, 06:00 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
So should someone be able to setup a picnic table in the middle of an MUP? I mean, it's multi-use, right?
The thing about absurd examples is that they reveal their proposer's argument for the absurdity that it it.

Your desire to have a conversation while riding doesn't supersede the desire of others to travel a little faster than you

Actually, apart from specific single file zones, until you make a request of them, it does, in both culture and law.

You're not going to win this argument against other cyclists, and you're certainly going to lose it against pedestrians. Trying to push it in an actual legislative context is only likely to result in things like speed limits and more dismount zones, as it sends the message that cyclists have an attitude incompatible with other users.

Last edited by UniChris; 06-25-19 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 06-25-19, 07:16 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
Yes. The problem with an analogy to cars capable of illegal speeds on roadways, is that roadways are regulated by speed limit signs with well developed tradition around enforcement, "interpretation", etc - imperfect that it is there's a culture, an enforcement budget, etc. Also speed limits vary widely between roads and zones, so until the current time actual speed governors wouldn't have been practical (though you do see people occasionally calling for them).

In contrast, bike paths have for the most part been power-limited, with those able to sustain unreasonable speeds hopefully having the experience and judgement not to do so.

Right now, the culture just isn't there for e-things without appropriate firmware speed limits to be on MUPs.

What we probably should be doing is encouraging light electric motorcycles with all the road-safety requirements and registration, and also more compact electric cars, for use on everyday roadways. Unfortunately we've now got these light motorcycles without the safety features or registration, regularly operating in our bike lanes faster than the uncongested flow of the adjacent car lanes. And misguidedly, rather than try to make delivery a living wage occupation, this risky and intimidating behavior in the race to minimize costs was just legalized.

Motors on bicycles should be limited to bringing less capable folks (or those who don't want to get sweaty) back to what an ordinary person (ordinary, not a cycling athlete) could sustain over a half dozen miles or more.
100%, it's pretty simple actually... Instead here in N. America, it's the super athlete's numbers that seems to be the cut off point for assistance for average riders...

Last edited by 350htrr; 06-25-19 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 06-25-19, 08:02 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
How is someone who is going a fairly median speed for the path being selfish?

Seems "selifish" is more the person in a well above median speed bracket, who wants everyone else to run mirrors or a swivel head to anticipate their need, rather than have the courtesy to request accommodation.



Efficient for the optimization of what variable? A bike highway would be a really interesting idea, but it's not, by the very definition, what a MUP is meant to be.

If you look at the enjoyment across the range of officially endorsed users, even limiting that to just bikes and walking, optimizing for fast cycling isn't really defensible. I've seen MUPs with 10 mph speed limits; even I find that low, and suspect it was enacted out of frustration with those doing more than twice that in close proximity to people walking. Our greenway just gained a hilly and itself contentious mandatory bike detour around a busy riverside area that had long been a point of mode conflict; and not just a peak summer hours detour, an 11 pm in snowy December one.



That's exactly the problem with those going faster than the usual expecting everyone else to proactively accommodate the mere possibility of their presence, rather than react to their courteous (and in places, legally required) requests for accommodation.

I get it; having to ask someone to move every couple of minutes must be annoying. But so would be looking behind you every 20 seconds while taking a casual walk with your friend or family. And there's no small irony, in that it's the exact some annoyance drivers have with cyclists taking the lane.

Jogging along oblivious in your own little headphone isolated world with dog leash across the full trail? Yes, that's selfish. Bombing through without giving others any time to react to your announcements? That too.


Apparently someone had this discussion and came up with the prefect solution a long time ago. All we have to do now is follow that example. There's really no need to start from scratch or rewrite the rules.
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Old 06-25-19, 08:17 PM
  #105  
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"Slower trafffic keep right" is not the quite the same as "cyclists must ride single file" - a type of zone I specifically mentioned does exist.

Nor does either sign apply to pedestrians walking two abreast on a MUP, where they are explicitly allowed to be.

Governments just aren't going to prohibit pedestrians from walking side by side in ordinary parts of a MUP. Maybe in a few exceptionally squeezed areas, but not in general.

Pointing out that the responsibility to request passing is on the person overtaking, not the person being overtaken to have eyes in the back of their head, is not re-writing the rules at all; it's explaining the existing rules of long duration.
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Old 06-26-19, 05:02 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Nobody is saying that the MUP should be setup to allow elite cyclist to ride at full speed. I'm simply stating that if it would operate efficiently, it would allow faster movers (be then on a bike, just running, walking...) to make mostly unimpeded progress. If you are blocking someone faster than you for no good reason, other than your lack of attention or courtesy, that is inefficient and unnecessary. Wanting to move past those people doesn't make one selfish, it just makes those reducing efficiency selfish.

No, you just misstated your own argument. You started by saying that too much diversity of vehicles on the MUP defeats efficiency. In particular, you were jumping on to complain about kick scooters. If you weren't intending to argue that people should not be allowed to use the paths in a manner that slows fast bicyclists, you have done a very bad job .

Obviously, people should be courteous and make room for passing, but this is trumped by safety concerns at all times. Remember, the rules on almost all mups require that bikes yield to pedestrians, so we're relying on their courtesy to let us pass.

I'm going to leave this discussion because frankly I don't think you understand mups have multiple purposes and that the rules are there to accommodate as many of those as possible. If "efficiency" as you define it was the primary purpose, there would have to be a minimum age for bike riders, for example. In case you haven't noticed, MUPs are often where toddlers are being taught to ride. These multiple uses are why these paths get funded in the first place.
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Old 06-26-19, 08:04 AM
  #107  
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I forgot to bring my marshmallows to the flame war!
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Old 06-26-19, 02:58 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
The thing about absurd examples is that they reveal their proposer's argument for the absurdity that it it.
Actually, apart from specific single file zones, until you make a request of them, it does, in both culture and law..
Yeah, no. Your claim about extreme examples simply isn't true.

It may not be specifically stated in the laws or rules of the path, but in culture it absolutely is expected (especially in NYC). It's common courtesy to make way for people in every aspect of life (especially in NYC), and these paths are not any different. It's rude and anti-social to impede other people for selfish reasons. Arguing otherwise is ridiculous.

I get that this is the forum where jealousy and despise of fast guys rains supreme, but this isn't about wanting to ride a breakneck speed on a bike path, it's about cooperative living in a polite society. But if you want to be that jerk that gets in the way because, "the law doesn't require me to move," go right ahead.

Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Apparently someone had this discussion and came up with the prefect solution a long time ago. All we have to do now is follow that example. There's really no need to start from scratch or rewrite the rules.
Exactly. It's as simple as it is effective.
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Old 06-26-19, 03:03 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Yeah, no. Your claim about extreme examples simply isn't true.
Actually, it is - when your best argument is literally a picnic table, it's obvious you don't have an actual case.

It's common courtesy to make way for people in every aspect of life (especially in NYC)
No one has said different.

The issue is that the people who want way made for them have to tell the people they want to make way that they are even there, because of this odd evolutionary quirk that means humans have our eyes on the front of our heads and not the backs.

That's the part of the real world (both culture and law) that you seem pathologically unable to understand.

You can argue against the reality of the world all you like, it won't change the laws or facts, or your frustration that other people do things the normal way, and not the way you think they should.

Last edited by UniChris; 06-26-19 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 06-26-19, 03:24 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
Actually, it is - when your best argument is literally a picnic table, it's obvious you don't have an actual case.
Enlighten yourself.



The issue is that the people who want way made for them have to tell the people they want to make way that they are even there, because of this odd evolutionary quirk that means humans have our eyes on the front of our heads and not the backs.

That's the part of the real world (both culture and law) that you seem pathologically unable to understand.

You can argue against the reality of the world all you like, it won't change the laws or facts, or your frustration that other people do things the normal way, and not the way you think they should.
Culturally, it is neither normal nor acceptable in NYC (and many other places in the world), so why are you trying to argue otherwise?

Yes, if someone is in the way and they don't realize it, you have to let them know if you want them to move. That's true, and it also makes the person a jerk. If you drive slowly in the left lane, you are being impolite. If you are impeding people on an MUP, you are being impolite. I really don't see why you are fighting this?
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Old 06-26-19, 05:06 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Yes, if someone is in the way and they don't realize it, you have to let them know if you want them to move. That's true, and it also makes the person a jerk. If you drive slowly in the left lane, you are being impolite. If you are impeding people on an MUP, you are being impolite. I really don't see why you are fighting this?
If you think that a pair of pedestrians walking along hand-in-hand on the shared-use part of a MUP and only moving aside when an approaching cyclist rings a bell is being "impolite" then that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have no idea what a MUP is.
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Old 06-27-19, 01:23 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
If you think that a pair of pedestrians walking along hand-in-hand on the shared-use part of a MUP and only moving aside when an approaching cyclist rings a bell is being "impolite" then that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have no idea what a MUP is.
Or maybe you have no idea what a polite society is?
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Old 06-27-19, 10:15 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post


Apparently someone had this discussion and came up with the prefect solution a long time ago. All we have to do now is follow that example. There's really no need to start from scratch or rewrite the rules.
In Britain it's left. The reason we keep to the left is because most knights on horseback were right-handed, so their swords were on their left. Passing on the left meant there was no risk of clashing swords with on-coming knights.

That's why our motor vehicles have the steering wheel on the right.

I have no idea why you guys do it reversed.
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Old 06-28-19, 02:58 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
In Britain it's left. The reason we keep to the left is because most knights on horseback were right-handed, so their swords were on their left. Passing on the left meant there was no risk of clashing swords with on-coming knights.


That's why our motor vehicles have the steering wheel on the right.


I have no idea why you guys do it reversed.

I was going to say because some dude in charge at the time said so. Then I looked it up and found I wasn't too far off. Turns out, it was a "thumbing nose" gesture to everything English after America gained its independence.

The Brits got back by giving us their accused sloppy seconds, Imperial system of measurements. Something they discarded long ago. Take that America.
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Old 07-05-19, 06:53 AM
  #115  
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A local MUP I ride has the problem with speeding e-bikes also (though not many, at least not yet). There are also mtn.bike trails off of the paved MUP. I ride road and also trails. I have noticed more e-bikes on the trails also, though it doesn't appear the trail riders are using them to speed, appears more for use in getting up the hills. The ones I've seen on the paved MUP, going from MUP to trails, or back to their vehicle have been riding at normal pedaling speeds. So, while I agree that the capability could (should?) be limited on pavement, I'm at a loss when it comes to the mtn. e-bikes that may have to travel on some pavement to get to the trails, as the motor may need to be more powerful to get up the types of hills found on trails (personally-I can and do walk up the very steep ones). I'm the type that would like to see the rider act responsibly, rather than regulations, but unfortunately, we'll always have a few determined to cast dispersions on the many.

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Old 07-05-19, 07:06 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
In Britain it's left. The reason we keep to the left is because most knights on horseback were right-handed, so their swords were on their left. Passing on the left meant there was no risk of clashing swords with on-coming knights.
Not touching that one, not with a 10 foot halberd.



Someone needs to inform the drivers of California about this obscure law. Here, the fast lane is thought by most drivers to be for driving alongside slow trucks and creating miles-long traffic backups during commute hours.
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Old 07-05-19, 07:09 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
In Britain it's left. The reason we keep to the left is because most knights on horseback were right-handed, so their swords were on their left. Passing on the left meant there was no risk of clashing swords with on-coming knights.

That's why our motor vehicles have the steering wheel on the right.

I have no idea why you guys do it reversed.
Because we carry our sidearms on the right.
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Old 07-05-19, 01:08 PM
  #118  
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Let me throw a little more fuel on the flames:

I ride an ebike because at my age my knees are not happy climbing hills. Without the electric assist I would no longer be ridiing. I ride it only in pedal assist mode, not via a throttle. So much for the OP's snide remark about "keeping up with my age - blah blah blah."

My bike meets all the MN statutes for ebikes, is considered to be a bicycle under the law and can be used wherever a bike is allowed - unless a local venue restricts access by ebikes.

We have an extensive network of beautiful wooded MUP trails that I ride several times a week. My normal speed is about 14 - 15 MPH, which seems to be reasonable on a busy MUP. I have only encountered one idiot on a go-fast ebike. I caught up to him at a rest area, and talked with him about the bike - double shock fork, beefy frame, monster battery and motor. He claimed 40 MPH+ on the flat. Illegal in MN but still on the MUP trail. But - the problem is not legislation, it is enforcement. Nobody patrols the trails for any reason other than maintenance.

Considering the ongoiing emphasis on automotive power and performance it is not surprising that the ebike companies and enthusiasts are jumping on the go-fast bandwagon, even though the product doesn't meet legal guideliines in many states. Again - no enforcement.

And as another poster observed, there is also the danger of high-speed pedal-powered bikers on the trails - they scare me more than the joggers and dog-walkers!

Since I have no control over the actions of others, I practice defensive driving in my car, and assume that every other driver has the potrential to do something stupid at any moment - and very likely will. I ride my bike the same way.
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Old 07-05-19, 02:13 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by event horizon View Post
Unless that "local venue" is federal land.

In Minnesota ebikes are considered motor vehicles on USFS land and cannot be used wherever a normal bike is allowed.
True -to the extent that the restriction applies to non-motorized trails. Since an ebike is considered a motor vehicle by USFS, they can be used wherever motorized vehicles are allowed. The question does arise though about whether registration is required and equipment - lights, etc. It would be good to make some inquiry prior to arriving with an ebike!

The restriction appears to be on all USFS lands, not just MN, but many sites are allowing ebikes on selected trails and routes.

https://the-journal.com/articles/90242
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Old 07-21-19, 05:24 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Joe Bikerider View Post
I ride regularly on the Contra Costa Canal trail and it's perpendicular friend the Iron Horse Trail. Contra Costa County, East Bay Area, California. (whew). The last couple days I've experienced several dangerous encounters with E-things. First was a couple of young boys riding powered scooters weaving in and out of pedestrians. Schools out lets go?! They both looked to have very large batteries, maybe legal but certainly not legal behavior. Next was another young man who sped past me on a fat bike with tons of power and no apparent need to pedal as he sped past. Third, a middle aged man who maybe could have pedaled but instead just zoomed up the slight hill into and through the tunnel under I680. Two other E bikes passed me at speed. I know there are so many people saying they are just keeping up with their age and blah blah blah. But I don't ride to be on a motorcycle track. This is now out of control and I'm sick out it.. Incidents have be reported to the EBRPD. Regards.
Ca. defines class 1 use as pedal assist or throttle up to 20mph. However, many paths have speed limits of 15mph. Call and report speeders! There will be a subset of ebike users who are careless and reckless, just like there are a subset of regular bike riders who race in packs and go way too fast on paths as well. I sometimes put a motor on my bike, depending on where I'm going, but even though it can go fast, I don't exceed 15mph on bike paths, especially if there are kids. I've already had to dump my bike (sans motor) to avoid a toddler who broke free from a parent. I totaly believe e-bikes should be legal on pathways and the majority of riders are using them responsibly (you don't notice them because they are not speeding). Those who don't deserve to be ticketed. I've reported lycra roadies who are doing 24mph in a group on the Bay Trail where it is marked 15mph. Not cool with families around and runners, etc.
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Old 07-21-19, 06:33 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
....People were like goal keepers! I attempt to ride past someone, and they step 2ft to the side.. i'm passing on.. Why do people do that?!
Adding to your question: Why do these same people look and turn to the right, while moving to the left, when you say "on your left"?

Kay : "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."
Sorry, Kay, the race has digressed....
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Old 07-22-19, 08:22 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by oldgeezerjeff View Post
The MUP I ride is a couple miles longer (and slower) to work and back than it would be for me to use the road. However, three lanes of vehicular traffic at 50 MPH, with no shoulders can ruin your day in a hurry. I tried the road once and was honked at 5 times. Not necessarily by the person directly behind me, but by the happy folks two or three cars back who were mad that they were being slowed up and could not see that there was a cyclist ahead. Also, people in their cars do dumb things when approaching a cyclist from the rear...like make sudden stupid lane changes that further enrage other drivers in those lanes who end up hating on the cyclist for even being on the road in the first place.
Once, while riding the road, a couple young guys in "tuner" cars came racing up behind me. The first driver switched lanes suddenly behind me and the driver immediately behind him did not see me and had to cram on his brakes, locking his tires. Few things will make you jump on the pedals like a car skidding up directly behind you in full lockup.
Thankfully, no crash or injury.
I have thought about some alternate road routes to work, but the infrastructure here is so under built that all the reasonable alternate routes are also being used by a lot of traffic. So, I have resigned myself to MUP use wherever possible.
Oldgeezerjeff and others... this too has been my experience... and has demonstrated to me the practical limits of "vehicular cycling."

Oh sure it can be done in those 50MPH situations... but you will not be "treated as a driver of a vehicle," in fact, you will usually be treated an obstacle to be scorned... and perhaps not even as well as a dog that motorist actually try to avoid hitting.

Just wanted to add my 2 cents to "jeff's" experience.
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