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זה מספיק Dayenu That's Enough

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זה מספיק Dayenu That's Enough

Old 06-27-19, 02:07 PM
  #26  
robertorolfo
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I think he was talking specifically about NYC, where space is, as they say, at a premium. Making the existing bike lanes any bigger would be difficult at best.
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Old 06-27-19, 02:34 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Part of the reason for bike lanes is that cars and bikes move at different speeds.
Depends on a lot on where and when; half the premise of urban bike messengering is that the bike is in general able to move faster (the other half, presumably, is parking)

So, moving the bikes to the side of the road, traffic in general moves smoother (plus, mixing 10 MPH bikes and 40 MPH cars is a problem. )
Default speed limit in NYC is 25 mph; in midtown Manhattan average speed is something like 6 mph, granted vehicles do move faster when there's a gap, and yes sometimes well faster than the speed limit.

But, as the number of bikes in the bike lanes increase, the same demands of slow/fast interactions would come up as one sees on roads.
Indeed, they do. However even if you widened it, on a block like the one of this incident, it's mostly that the lane is interrupted by an intersection (a point of contention if not a red light) every 264 feet; that's every 12 seconds for someone cranking 15 mph, which isn't a lot for a determined rider.

by keeping cars from parking in the middle of the lanes trying to turn, or avoiding swerving around bikes.
Lacking any will to enforce even the most obvious examples of bike lane blocking is for the moment a bigger issue than the limited space devoted to them.

There was however recently a decision to convert a vehicle lane through Times Square, where the bike lane had become a de-facto sidewalk overflow. That's a pretty obvious step, at least short of bulldozing the whole area and building a replica in Las Vegas.

Prohibiting sidewalk vending in high sidewalk traffic areas (and chokepoints like next to subway entrance stairs) is another bit of obvious enforcement currently lacking.

Last edited by UniChris; 06-27-19 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 06-27-19, 04:12 PM
  #28  
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Consider ticketing, I don’t know, commercial operators?

Antonio Garcia received five equipment violation summons. Then was consoled.

-mr. bill
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Old 06-27-19, 04:43 PM
  #29  
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mr_bill, please, share this as of yet non-public factual information on the basis of which you are able to assign fault in accordance with due process

In a rule-of-law society, we weigh facts - we don't make assumptions. And we look at the actual situation, we don't stereotype people.

Finally, we don't let a past miscarriage of justice (as most would agree has happened in other situations) prejudice the evaluation of a new situation.

Last edited by UniChris; 06-27-19 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 06-27-19, 07:44 PM
  #30  
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There is no factual basis to blame them, yet NYPD blamed them and went on yet another ticket cyclists spree.

This is PRESENT miscarriage. Again.

-mr. bill.
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Old 06-27-19, 07:55 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
There is no factual basis to blame them, yet NYPD blamed them
I'd basically agree, with the exception that a random (if sadly all too typical) officer on the street being quoted making a grossly ignorant comment about not being in a lane he couldn't bother to notice was blocked, isn't really official/legal "blame" in the way that your proposed "ticketing commercial operators" would be (if you meant to imply that had something specific to do with this incident). I'm all for ticketing bike lane blocking and other illegal parking, speeding, red light violations, illegally long trucks, wherever and whenever it occurs, but it's unclear that any of that would have prevented this.

and went on yet another ticket cyclists spree.

That's grotesquely insensitive of course (a fact that there are today indications may be finally sinking in after years of such pattern), but the key question is if the violations ticketed actually occurred - one doesn't really get to re-write the laws to one's personal preference and belief. Many of them likely did - lots of complaint posts freely admit it. But yes, there have been some inexcusable cases of people being ticketed for things they did not do, or that are not actually violations, and those are indeed worth getting worked up about.

Sending officers out on a mission to enforce one subset of the traffic laws while ignoring violations of all the others is indeed deeply misguided, in a uniquely big-city perversion-of-"strategy" sort of way. But that doesn't mean that the (actual) violations they are ticketing shouldn't be (laws are made in the halls of government, not on the street corner), or that ticketing other violations would have prevented this tragedy - because we don't actually know what caused it.

Last edited by UniChris; 06-27-19 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 06-27-19, 08:35 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
I'd basically agree, with the exception that a random (if sadly all too typical) officer on the street being quoted making a grossly ignorant comment....
Actions, not words. This isnít about one random officer. Not this time, not the last time, not the time before that....

Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
That's grotesquely insensitive of course...


Grossly unjust.

-mr. bill
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Old 06-27-19, 09:44 PM
  #33  
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Seems pretty clear to someone who isn't tying to prove a point. Cyclist gets hit, while riding (as far as anyone knows) legally in a traffic lane, NYPD starts tightly enforcing traffic laws---on cyclists.

My inference is that NYPD has decided that it cannot change driver behavior, so why not come down on the much smaller number of cyclists and get them riding scared?

But that is just an inference.

Having spent a little time in NY C ... possibly to the attitudes of most drivers would lead to more hassles and less progress if drivers started getting ticketed for blocking bike lanes, and other "minor" offences. (Nothing infuriates me more than seeing a cop of ambulance trying to get through traffic and Not A Single Driver even trying to make room---pretty common in NYC.) So, aim for a target which might move if hit.

Others can disagree ... I really don't care.

None of us know squat about the accident ... but I notice that the total lack of information didn't prevent a bloody fight over whose imaginary facts were better. So .... whatever.
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Old 06-28-19, 05:17 AM
  #34  
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Just for some kind of perspective, ten times more pedestrians were killed in NYC than cyclists.

Unless there's some specific systematic issue revealed by s particular accident, there's no good reason for a single incident to spark a ticketing spree. The cops appear to just want to do something visible, and picked the low-hanging fruit. It probably doesn't help that the people making the enforcement decisions likely don't have much if any experience riding bikes non-recreationally in the city.
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Old 06-28-19, 06:21 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
None of us know squat about the accident ... but I notice that the total lack of information didn't prevent a bloody fight over whose imaginary facts were better. So .... whatever.
On Tuesday, the NYPD still did not know squat about the accident ... but they sent a bicycle unit to Sixth Avenue near the crash site to ticket people on bikes.

-mr. bill
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Old 06-28-19, 09:11 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
On Tuesday, the NYPD still did not know squat about the accident ... but they sent a bicycle unit to Sixth Avenue near the crash site to ticket people on bikes.
The insensitivity of this bothers me.

The worrisomely large minority of cases that are erroneous - things that did not happen, or that are not violations bothers me.

The focusing on only some types of violations and ignoring others occurring just feet away bothers me.

But ticketing things like red lights that are actual violations actually committed and that everyone is on ample notice are actually being enforced?

That doesn't bother me.

There are laws that are controversial, yes. But we change laws in the state house and city hall, not by looking the other way. Indeed, much of what advocates are arguing against is the culture of "looking away" that is ongoing. The answer isn't to add a tradition of looking away from bike infractions, it's to obey and enforce the laws we have, and where necessary change them into the laws we need.

Laws are really not meant to be about catching violators; they are first and foremost meant to instruct law abiding citizens how society expects them to behave.

In other news, someone was killed in Brooklyn last night when a car and a bicycle on perpendicular paths collided at an intersection with a traffic light. There's no public information to indicate a turn was being made, and right-on-red is illegal in NYC anyway, so there doesn't seem to be a lot of grey area or judgement at issue. One party or the other violated the light, but as of yet there is no indication which, and with only one party alive to interview, there may never be.

Last edited by UniChris; 06-28-19 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 06-28-19, 12:38 PM
  #37  
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excerpt:
Asked if the unit was looking to ticket drivers, or cite the massive truck parked next to the bike lane that appears to exceed the 53 foot trailer limit, Officer Negron responded, "No, we're looking right now at bicycles, all right?"
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Old 06-28-19, 01:46 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
excerpt:
Asked if the unit was looking to ticket drivers, or cite the massive truck parked next to the bike lane that appears to exceed the 53 foot trailer limit, Officer Negron responded, "No, we're looking right now at bicycles, all right?"
Excerpt of what?
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Old 06-28-19, 01:55 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Excerpt of what?
Excerpt of what you were too lazy to read.

We understand ... being ill-informed and ill-tempered is a full-time job for you. We will cut you some slack.
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Old 06-28-19, 10:50 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Excerpt of what you were too lazy to read.

We understand ... being ill-informed and ill-tempered is a full-time job for you. We will cut you some slack.
Some get too much slack.
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Please dont outsmart the censor. That is a very expensive censor and every time one of you guys outsmart it it makes someone at the home office feel bad. We dont wanna do that. So dont cleverly disguise bad words.
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Old 06-29-19, 04:36 PM
  #41  
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Just for some kind of perspective, ten times more pedestrians were killed in NYC than cyclists.
Traffic accidents are measured in in exposure time to the road. Longer distances or slower speeds add up. Previous studies from the 1970s place the ratio of pedestrian to bicyclists deaths at 10/1.

Part of the reason for bike lanes is that cars and bikes move at different speeds.
The real reason for unprotected bike lanes is to appease people that don't want to ride in traffic. If the bike lanes were built properly and the public was in approval of it and universal standards were implemented then they would be as safe as the rest of the road. In many cases they make the road even more dangerous especially in congested areas like NYC.

The ticketing of people not riding in the bike lane needs to be challenged. As I previously posted miscreant people with a badge who intentionally block the bike lane with there patrol cars and then write tickets for leaving the bike lane need to be relieved of duty. I don't car if it is the police chief or some dweeb from the mayors office instructing them to break the law. For whatever reason they fill empowered to mistreat the public and they are the ones who need to be punished.

Ladies and Gentleman it boils down to the almighty dollar. Either they don't have the money or don't want to investigate collisions that involve bicyclists and pedestrians.
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Old 07-01-19, 09:18 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Ladies and Gentleman it boils down to the almighty dollar. Either they don't have the money or don't want to investigate collisions that involve bicyclists and pedestrians.
The latter. Policing drivers off the road would also mean policing them out of one of the most cash intensive revenue streams in the world. Every single day NYC collects more than $1M dollars in cash from people trying to get their impounded vehicles back from the DOT or to get their impounded operators licenses back from DMV forfeiture. Every day NYC writes more than $1M in traffic, moving violation and other vehicle related offenses. Every day.

Any reasonable person taken to an intersection in Midtown Manhattan would conclude in less than 10 minutes that a complete ban on non-essential motor vehicle traffic would make the city far more efficient and sustainable. But that revenue stream. ... Now add to that the toll on vulnerable road users and pedestrians. When a pedestrian or cyclist is maimed or killed anywhere in this country the actual civil litigation is left to the injured part(y)(ies). If the next of kin CAN mount a wrongful death litigation against the truck driver and/or his employer they are welcome to do so. NYC is only interested in the revenue to be collected from any traffic or equipment violations that may be relevant. And also in the opportunity to interact with that driver again in the future. Destroying the driving career of a motorist after one offense, no matter how serious, can deprive a city like NYC of significant income. The byzantine alternate side parking, fire hydrant, bus shelter, red light camera, tunnel tolls, bridge tolls ... and that's all on the enforcement side. On the parking lot fees and gasoline and insurance, etc. etc. A motorist in NYC if being fleeced of huge amounts of money daily. I was one of them. I know how it works.
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Old 07-03-19, 01:43 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
That's a pretty obvious step, at least short of bulldozing the whole area and building a replica in Las Vegas.

Prohibiting sidewalk vending in high sidewalk traffic areas (and chokepoints like next to subway entrance stairs) is another bit of obvious enforcement currently lacking.
Well, at least we agree on these two points.

And, as you mentioned, the most infuriating thing is the police ignoring the numerous violations from motorists (you can easily see one every 10 seconds while riding/driving with traffic, if you are paying attention).
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