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Is amateur racing legit?

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Is amateur racing legit?

Old 07-21-19, 05:15 PM
  #176  
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The testing is also not the same. The pee in the cup is ensured in elite national top finishers. It is not in masters.

It should be rather obvious I as a 50+ (near 60) guy can get ED help, Insulin help - a bunch of help my 21 year old would find a bit more difficult to get.
It is easier and few care - esp at the national level for a master.
This is not a comment on relative ethics, or morals, rather - it is easier, and less tested.

Do you dispute that?
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Old 07-21-19, 05:17 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
That's not even something that makes sense, but pretending I know what you're saying...why would you know of any doping 20-30 year olds? The idea would be for people not to know.
Uh...I know quite a bit. That is what I am saying.
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Old 07-21-19, 05:38 PM
  #178  
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I realize you want to use BF as a forum to just argue about stuff, but 1/2 of what you write makes ponderously little sense. If you're actually saying you know of people doping I don't even know what to say to you. But I do know I can put you back on ignore. There is no statistical evidence that masters dope at a higher rate than other demographics, simply because there's not enough testing and no one has studied it. You can toss around whatever pet peeves or theories you want. But lacking some sort of statistical analysis it's all simple speculation And with that I'm out.
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Old 07-21-19, 10:21 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
I realize you want to use BF as a forum to just argue about stuff, but 1/2 of what you write makes ponderously little sense. If you're actually saying you know of people doping I don't even know what to say to you. But I do know I can put you back on ignore. There is no statistical evidence that masters dope at a higher rate than other demographics, simply because there's not enough testing and no one has studied it. You can toss around whatever pet peeves or theories you want. But lacking some sort of statistical analysis it's all simple speculation And with that I'm out.
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Old 07-21-19, 10:38 PM
  #180  
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Shoot - I was going by gut. I know the under 30 guys. This seems to be mostly a masters issue. There are the reasons I stated - it is easier. But also a 20 something non-pro has stepped out. They have chosen not to compete at the top level. Sure, there are doper kids that have very little talent. They need parents to tell them to get another job. But I do stand by my statement. Seems the data backs me up.
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Old 07-22-19, 03:46 AM
  #181  
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The statistics and testing protocols are eluding you.

If they mainly test masters they're not going to catch 20 somethings.

You know how many 50 year olds test positive on the world tour? Not many. You know why?

Unless there are established and studied testing protocols conclusions can not be drawn.

What you're posting fits your narrative. But it doesn't have much statistical relevance.

On top of this your looking at this through ethnocentric eyes. This sport barely exists here. Wonder what's going on over in countries where people care about cycling?
There are, say, 100 races in NYC this year. Call it 3 fields at a race. Full fields. 100 people Of all those results they've caught no one. Sport must be clean. Only they haven't actually tested anyone.

Last edited by gsteinb; 07-22-19 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 07-22-19, 06:19 AM
  #182  
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They test pretty aggressively at Masters Nationals. Typically, it's the top 3 on every podium. When you consider all the 5-year age groups there, that is a lot of testing of just Masters.

And that 90-year-old was the only racer in his field and was tested because he set a new record. He passed on day one of racing, but tested positive on day two of racing. USADA admits they don't think he did it intentionally.
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Old 07-22-19, 07:02 AM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Then some dope for taking better tests too, but I think it is rare once in college, and more before.
Adderall or ritalin or whatever upper to help you stay up and focus while studying for tests while in college is totally a thing. As a college professor, I hear enough students talking about it to know that many more aren't talking about it when they are aware that I'm around and could hear them.
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Old 07-22-19, 08:25 AM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
They test pretty aggressively at Masters Nationals. Typically, it's the top 3 on every podium. When you consider all the 5-year age groups there, that is a lot of testing of just Masters.

And that 90-year-old was the only racer in his field and was tested because he set a new record. He passed on day one of racing, but tested positive on day two of racing. USADA admits they don't think he did it intentionally.

I dont acually think that’s true on the scale you present. I’ve been to plenty of nationals and have barely seen testing. Is there some? Yeah. Is it enough to draw statistical conclusions around masters racers vs a world wide cadre of open racers? No. Hell no. If someone wants to argue maters racers dope I’m all in aggrreemenr. The broad generalization and certitude of what demographics do what andvto what extent ai simply silly. USADA cherry picks based on tips. That’s the official line. I Ive been to masters mats where they didn’t even show up.
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Old 07-22-19, 08:48 AM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Adderall or ritalin or whatever upper to help you stay up and focus while studying for tests while in college is totally a thing. As a college professor, I hear enough students talking about it to know that many more aren't talking about it when they are aware that I'm around and could hear them.
It is and the cycling kid would get a TUE for that, assuming it was prescribed and seems that part is not hard.
That doesn't mean it doesn't help them, but it will keep them off the list.

I guess the question is, is legally getting help legit?
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Old 07-22-19, 08:57 AM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
The statistics and testing protocols are eluding you.

If they mainly test masters they're not going to catch 20 somethings.

You know how many 50 year olds test positive on the world tour? Not many. You know why?

Unless there are established and studied testing protocols conclusions can not be drawn.

What you're posting fits your narrative. But it doesn't have much statistical relevance.

On top of this your looking at this through ethnocentric eyes. This sport barely exists here. Wonder what's going on over in countries where people care about cycling?
There are, say, 100 races in NYC this year. Call it 3 fields at a race. Full fields. 100 people Of all those results they've caught no one. Sport must be clean. Only they haven't actually tested anyone.
The OP asked about amateur racing. And I assumed it was in the USA. You're right, non-pro 20 somethings that don't win, generally are not tested. Your 50 year old WT illustration is close to why 20 something amateurs are not busted in the USA.
A top 20 something is a pro, and that takes them out of scope of this thread. I was aware of a junior with a TUE. That is out of scope of not being legit.

Last edited by Doge; 07-22-19 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 07-22-19, 11:10 AM
  #187  
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As a masters racer, I am happy they are testing racers. I am not happy that racers are getting caught per se. My reason is that all the talk and testing makes racing seems odd at best and sleazy at worst. In a world of many choices why race?

I cannot comment on the validity of generalizations based upon limited data sets. All I know is that UCI/WADA/USADA tested UCI world tour racers a lot including at location testing not just races and only caught them when they ratted on each other (Lance and his merry men). Maybe the younger racers are more adept / skilled at doping than masters.

Also, I suspect that masters that are being caught today have been doping for quite some time. At some point in time crooks get caught because they get careless and too bold.

Last edited by Hermes; 07-22-19 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 07-23-19, 09:13 AM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I know of no 20-30 year old non-pros I even suspect. Certainly, I don't know. I have many older ones I suspect. That all means nothing.
But to my response. It is very easy for an older guy to get help for things from ED to Low T, Insulin etc. These may all be legit. They are also not allowed in cycling. A 20 something needing the same help and also being a racer - may raise more eyebrows. College often wins over being a National competitor in cycling. At that stage, cycling is recreation. Then some dope for taking better tests too, but I think it is rare once in college, and more before.

If you are 20 something and going to dope, you better be getting paid for it.
I'm not an expert on the sport or on the scene, but your outlook on general human nature seems a bit naive. People don't need to be getting paid to dope. They are just as likely, if not more likely, to dope in order to get paid in the first place. Did you see that recent interview with Armstrong on NBC? He admitted that he would have done it all over again, because of the prospect of going back to Texas as a failed, no-name cyclist was just too much for him to bear. It was a fascinating and telling moment. How many of these guys are facing similar choices? How many are already in obscurity, and desperate for a way out?

And that's almost separate from the shallow people that simply don't mind cheating in order to win something. And there are tons of people out there like that, in all walks of life (students doping to do better on tests), and all the "everyone else is doing it," and "I have an issue, so this just makes it fair for me," just makes it easier for them to justify their choices.

Lastly, on TUE's, just look at some of the big names that had no issues getting them. Froome and his "asthma." Simone Biles and her ADD. The Williams sisters and whatever ailments they claim to have. Finding a crooked doctor is just as easy as finding a crooked athlete...
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Old 07-23-19, 09:23 AM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
I'm not an expert on the sport or on the scene, but your outlook on general human nature seems a bit naive. People don't need to be getting paid to dope. They are just as likely, if not more likely, to dope in order to get paid in the first place. Did you see that recent interview with Armstrong on NBC? He admitted that he would have done it all over again, because of the prospect of going back to Texas as a failed, no-name cyclist was just too much for him to bear. It was a fascinating and telling moment. How many of these guys are facing similar choices? How many are already in obscurity, and desperate for a way out?

And that's almost separate from the shallow people that simply don't mind cheating in order to win something. And there are tons of people out there like that, in all walks of life (students doping to do better on tests), and all the "everyone else is doing it," and "I have an issue, so this just makes it fair for me," just makes it easier for them to justify their choices.

Lastly, on TUE's, just look at some of the big names that had no issues getting them. Froome and his "asthma." Simone Biles and her ADD. The Williams sisters and whatever ailments they claim to have. Finding a crooked doctor is just as easy as finding a crooked athlete...
Look up Alberto Salazar and the Nike Oregon Project
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Old 07-23-19, 09:39 AM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
I'm not an expert on the sport or on the scene, but your outlook on general human nature seems a bit naive. People don't need to be getting paid to dope. They are just as likely, if not more likely, to dope in order to get paid in the first place. Did you see that recent interview with Armstrong on NBC? He admitted that he would have done it all over again, because of the prospect of going back to Texas as a failed, no-name cyclist was just too much for him to bear. It was a fascinating and telling moment. How many of these guys are facing similar choices? How many are already in obscurity, and desperate for a way out?

...
The thing that folks do not seem to be acknowledging in my posts is the scope is narrowed for the 20-30 year old group. I am responding to the scope of this post - Amateurs. In that group you have all the best in the world - for their age, who even doped are not good enough to be pro. And you have a group that know they are not going to be pros, because of choice, or because of ability. The latter group is generally getting better (age) and the former declining (age).

All 40+ racers are amateurs. The most serious/best performers in the 20-30s are not. So besides the easier of legitimate access to PEDs a 40, 50 etc. has, you have all competitors in that age group in there. Ex-pros, world champions all types. When they were 20-30s they were pros too. And if they were doping then, they were doping as pros - so out of scope of this thread as is Armstrong / other pros.


There were/are several top cyclists that made the choice to step out of being a pro. Choosing not to compete at that level and then doping so you can, is something I don't see. Instead they train when they can around work, school and go race. If they took cycling as seriously as the other things in life - they'd be pros, and there might be more reason to dope.


Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
...

Lastly, on TUE's, just look at some of the big names that had no issues getting them. Froome and his "asthma." Simone Biles and her ADD. The Williams sisters and whatever ailments they claim to have. Finding a crooked doctor is just as easy as finding a crooked athlete...
I think the TUE thing is just a loop hole they should dump. Even juniors get TUEs and they are an advantage. Cycling is a sport where some competitors are not even allowed the same equipment in a race against older ones, so we pretty much build in unfairness part of it. The "everyone is doing it" is how it is done. From sticky bottles, to equipment changes, to drafting cars - and doping. I don't see that as unusual. Other sports I've officiated, you have the rules/laws and then you have what everyone does. That is typically what is considered fair, not what the rules are. You just don't want to get too much advantage, or win too much and everyone will be happy.
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Old 07-23-19, 09:57 AM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
The thing that folks do not seem to be acknowledging in my posts is the scope is narrowed for the 20-30 year old group. I am responding to the scope of this post - Amateurs. In that group you have all the best in the world - for their age, who even doped are not good enough to be pro. And you have a group that know they are not going to be pros, because of choice, or because of ability. The latter group is generally getting better (age) and the former declining (age).

All 40+ racers are amateurs. The most serious/best performers in the 20-30s are not. So besides the easier of legitimate access to PEDs a 40, 50 etc. has, you have all competitors in that age group in there. Ex-pros, world champions all types. When they were 20-30s they were pros too. And if they were doping then, they were doping as pros - so out of scope of this thread as is Armstrong / other pros.


There were/are several top cyclists that made the choice to step out of being a pro. Choosing not to compete at that level and then doping so you can, is something I don't see. Instead they train when they can around work, school and go race. If they took cycling as seriously as the other things in life - they'd be pros, and there might be more reason to dope.
You seem to assume that all 20-30 year olds are rational actors with the same morals you have. I'd bet there are some 20-30 year old elites that you'd put in the "not good enough to be pros even if they doped" group who think that if they dope they will be good enough and are willing to give it a try. I'd also bet that there are some 20-30 year olds that find that life means that they can't train as much as their friends but still want to compete with them (and I'd be that there are some who just want to be able to compete for bragging rights at Tuesday Night Worlds rides) that will take a little something extra to try to make up for the fact that they can't train as much (because "it's not fair that I no longer have as much time as ____ to train, so this is just balancing things to make up for it"). And I'd bet that there are some who think that it doesn't matter since they're unlikely to be caught, it's fun to go faster and/or hurt less, so who gives a ****, why not? And that's just at the pointy end. I'd bet there are also a number of 3's and 2's that are tired of waiting to get the points to get promoted and think, "who's going to know, they don't ever test 3's" and take a little something to get there a little faster.

Just because you can separate amateurs out into groups, identify why they fit into those groups, and say why it doesn't make sense for anyone in each of the groups to dope for group-specific reasons, doesn't mean that they'd all agree with the group you've put them in or your reasons for why people in that group shouldn't dope. Hell, some people don't see that there's anything wrong with doping (as long as they are smart enough to get caught - they only look down on those who they feel must obviously be dumb since they got caught), and don't feel that they need a good reason. Some people like putting substances (of all sorts, even if they cause long term consequences) in their bodies because it makes them feel good. Some people like riding their bikes fast because it makes them feel good. Some people like putting substances in their bodies because it allows them to go faster and going faster makes them feel good.
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Old 07-23-19, 10:57 AM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
You seem to assume that all 20-30 year olds are rational actors with the same morals you have. ...
I assume in professional sports you do what others do. That is how sports are done. Otherwise you are handicapped and should think real hard before getting into it as a job. I do not/did not ever want my kids as pros and assisted them in getting off that track.

But this is not a pro thread. It is not about cheating on tests, or Tue Night Worlds. The OP groups people. They are not pros.
There are assumptions I make I can make, all have exceptions:
-USAC Cat 1-5 racers are what the OP is asking about, those not also doing pro races.
-human characteristic are equally distributed across all age groups
-Ease of access to some PEDs varies by age group (and gender).
-Age maters for performance - you get better in cycling till about 30 (+/- 5 years), you get worse ( then not offset by training and substances)
-Winners do things those they beat don't do (in general, there are overlaps). This is typically training, but includes travel, equipment and what they put in their bodies.
-A 20-30 something doing the same things as the top 40+ something is a pro.

The top 20-30 somethings are not in this group, which the OP introduced, I didn't.
As such the facts of masters racers getting about 10X the sanctions as those is their 20 would be about what you expect with my assumptions and when you take out the most aggressive fastest riders.
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Old 07-23-19, 11:07 AM
  #193  
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Doge you're bizarrely hung up on the OP. Conversations evolve. The OP was from October.

That said in cycling amateurs regularly race against folks from other categories, including pros. And while most won't race against WT pros many do race against domestic pros or guys who can race across in the big leagues. People on each level want to improve and make the next level. If someone is doping in there it's bound to change the level of the playing field.

That said, we got it. In your view masters are the problem. Gear restrictions are equivalent to someone doing EPO, and the lack of any statistical protocol is irrelevant to the fact that masters clearly dope in far greater number than any demographic. Funny thing is the next one to get popped is probably someone in your kid's cohort. So tread carefully with all the silliness you spout. You're apt to need to do mia culpas at some point. Because the one thing the statistics have shown is that the overwhelming majority of guys racing on the pointy end of the world stage are dirty. And odds are that doesn't start when they get there.
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Old 07-23-19, 11:17 AM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
-A 20-30 something doing the same things as the top 40+ something is a pro.
Maybe some are. But there are some 20-30 somethings that just aren't as genetically gifted to get to that level. Or maybe they don't have quite the time to train or desire to put that much effort in but still want results. Not everyone is your kid. Plenty of people at all levels want shortcuts. Some folks at all levels want a boost just so they can finish a century, a fondo, or a marathon just so that they can go into work (or the bar trying to score chicks) and say that they did this feat and see scoring a little T (hey, it's natural, it's in your body anyway, I just want a bit more) as a way to do that.
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Old 07-23-19, 11:47 AM
  #195  
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Maybe some are. But there are some 20-30 somethings that just aren't as genetically gifted to get to that level. Or maybe they don't have quite the time to train or desire to put that much effort in but still want results. Not everyone is your kid. Plenty of people at all levels want shortcuts. Some folks at all levels want a boost just so they can finish a century, a fondo, or a marathon just so that they can go into work (or the bar trying to score chicks) and say that they did this feat and see scoring a little T (hey, it's natural, it's in your body anyway, I just want a bit more) as a way to do that.
Centuries, fondos, marathons are also OT for what the OP posted. Yes, my kid is talented. But so were the 10-20 juniors he raced with (of a few hundred). None of those kids doing 20+ hours/week and doing the training the winning masters are (whatever they are doing) wouldn't be a pro. Of course some are. That does not mean they doped to get there. I'm saying I'd find it hard to believe a kid would dope and not train too. If they want to do drugs, there are a lot of social things they can do instead. That part does not add up.
Anyway, that is a subjective argument trying to explain the facts that USAC masters racers are sanctioned about 10X as often as non-masters.
Why do you think that is?
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Old 07-23-19, 11:54 AM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
You seem to assume that all 20-30 year olds are rational actors with the same morals you have. I'd bet there are some 20-30 year old elites that you'd put in the "not good enough to be pros even if they doped" group who think that if they dope they will be good enough and are willing to give it a try. I'd also bet that there are some 20-30 year olds that find that life means that they can't train as much as their friends but still want to compete with them (and I'd be that there are some who just want to be able to compete for bragging rights at Tuesday Night Worlds rides) that will take a little something extra to try to make up for the fact that they can't train as much (because "it's not fair that I no longer have as much time as ____ to train, so this is just balancing things to make up for it"). And I'd bet that there are some who think that it doesn't matter since they're unlikely to be caught, it's fun to go faster and/or hurt less, so who gives a ****, why not? And that's just at the pointy end. I'd bet there are also a number of 3's and 2's that are tired of waiting to get the points to get promoted and think, "who's going to know, they don't ever test 3's" and take a little something to get there a little faster.

Just because you can separate amateurs out into groups, identify why they fit into those groups, and say why it doesn't make sense for anyone in each of the groups to dope for group-specific reasons, doesn't mean that they'd all agree with the group you've put them in or your reasons for why people in that group shouldn't dope. Hell, some people don't see that there's anything wrong with doping (as long as they are smart enough to get caught - they only look down on those who they feel must obviously be dumb since they got caught), and don't feel that they need a good reason. Some people like putting substances (of all sorts, even if they cause long term consequences) in their bodies because it makes them feel good. Some people like riding their bikes fast because it makes them feel good. Some people like putting substances in their bodies because it allows them to go faster and going faster makes them feel good.
Worlds is a big deal around here, and I'm sure other regions are the same.

This year we have 2 guys that broke the KOM's at Worlds; one is a relative no name (former runner) and another is a former Cat 2 that came back. Both get free coaching, free bikes, one got a job at the LBS, and a bunch of other incentives. In the same token, someone could win an industrial crit and no one would care.

First two years I rode here I was awful at World's, and there were people that wouldn't talk to me (or anyone else slow). Once I started dropping them did they actually accept me into the social group; it was almost like one of those teenage movies where the nerd becomes cool, and even then you have the guys that only talk to 'pros' (which are usually former DPros). Cycling has an caste system, and I can see guys doping just to move up it.
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Old 07-23-19, 03:01 PM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by CyclingFever View Post
What does punctuation have to do people being too dense to figure out that if it's obscure or odd it's probably sarcasm?
Almost forgot to reply to this...

Punctuation simply helps people understand what you are trying to say, no matter what you are saying. Period. Pun intended.

If you can't write clearly, then in a forum like this one you cannot communicate clearly. And if you cannot communicate clearly, don't expect people to understand what you are saying, and don't expect them to pick up on some claimed sarcasm.
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Old 07-23-19, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Honest question out of ignorance.........there are 3/4 races with enough prize money to even justify your gas money and Motel 6 stay?

I thought most Cat 3/4/5 race prize money was in the ballpark of gas money within 100 miles and a meal and snack.
This.

There may be a few misguided newbies who engage in some minor doping, but it's simply not worth the expense and hassle for the occasional payday, and if you have the talent to excel at regional and national events, you will very soon find yourself in races where anti- doping controls are in place.

So yes, amateur racing is legit. The guys at the top are there because they're fast.
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Old 07-24-19, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Maybe some are. But there are some 20-30 somethings that just aren't as genetically gifted to get to that level. Or maybe they don't have quite the time to train or desire to put that much effort in but still want results. Not everyone is your kid. Plenty of people at all levels want shortcuts. Some folks at all levels want a boost just so they can finish a century, a fondo, or a marathon just so that they can go into work (or the bar trying to score chicks) and say that they did this feat and see scoring a little T (hey, it's natural, it's in your body anyway, I just want a bit more) as a way to do that.
I mean if someone is doping so they can win or even just keep up on the group ride. More power to them I guess.
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Old 07-24-19, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Just because you can separate amateurs out into groups, identify why they fit into those groups, and say why it doesn't make sense for anyone in each of the groups to dope for group-specific reasons, doesn't mean that they'd all agree with the group you've put them in or your reasons for why people in that group shouldn't dope. Hell, some people don't see that there's anything wrong with doping (as long as they are smart enough to get caught - they only look down on those who they feel must obviously be dumb since they got caught), and don't feel that they need a good reason. Some people like putting substances (of all sorts, even if they cause long term consequences) in their bodies because it makes them feel good. Some people like riding their bikes fast because it makes them feel good. Some people like putting substances in their bodies because it allows them to go faster and going faster makes them feel good.
Exactly this. Go over to the nearest weightlifting gym and you will find a guy (or several) that is taking steroids just to get big. There isn't some competition and there certainly isn't a payday, they just want to look bigger and have some bragging rights, no matter what it does to their bodies. Shallow and stupid people are out there. Millions of them.

Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
There may be a few misguided newbies who engage in some minor doping, but it's simply not worth the expense and hassle for the occasional payday, and if you have the talent to excel at regional and national events, you will very soon find yourself in races where anti- doping controls are in place.

So yes, amateur racing is legit. The guys at the top are there because they're fast.
See above. It's not always about the money. Not even close. Do you seriously doubt there are guys that would dope just so that their Instagram profile picture can be a shot of them crossing the line first with their hands in the air?
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