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Training to power -- suggestions?

Old 07-09-19, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Grotug View Post
An update on my progress:

I got a bike fit right before last Tuesday's group ride and I think it helped. And I think my FTP is going up. I had a very good ride last Tuesday. Held onto the A group passed the halfway point in the 50 mile ride. Got dropped at the bottom of the last climb about 32 miles in because I forgot about it and went to the front leading up to it, because I was feeling good. My average power was 171 Watts (and weighted avg power was 192 watts) according to strava (riding with assioma DUO power meter pedals). Compare that to the previous Tuesday ride (41 miles) where I averaged 145 watts (weighted avg 177). Interestingly my legs were feeling pretty sludgy and my heart rate was so reluctant to go up for the first 10+ miles of the ride and I was figuring I was not gonna have a good ride, but they really warmed up on the first big climb where I really tempo'd myself and watched my watts, keeping them below 240, and then kicking at the end of the climb. I think that paid off big time. My heart rate eventually started going up, too, as I started to put down more watts (hence the higher average wattage). After that my legs were feeling so good and the rest of the ride was a dream ride. Just felt super great.

Since I wasn't the only one who got dropped I had someone to share pulls with on the way back to the bike shop. And since I stayed with the group so long, my average speed was 20.8mph with 2,710 ft of climbing. It was nice seeing PRs and Trophies again (I was doing quite well hanging with the A group last season, too, especially the latter half). Comparing last Tuesday's ride to a Tuesday ride last year (July 10th, 2018, nine days later than last Tuesday's ride) that was 43 miles and 2475ft of climbing I averaged 18.8mph (2mph slower); so, it's reassuring to see I'm doing quite a bit better than a slightly later date from last year. I'm really hoping I can hang tough the whole ride tomorrow. I'm getting so stoked for these Tuesday night rides, now. I love the challenge of trying to hang! Last week I was super pumped, as I am now just thinking about tomorrow. I had one less ride last week (I decided to not ride on July 4th since it was so hot) so that should help with having fresher legs tomorrow. One thing that I think helped with my performance on the Tuesday ride is finally getting in that endurance ride on June 28th. I tried to do another endurance ride on Friday but my wahoo died (forgot to charge it) and I misguaged the ride (ended up only riding 3 hours/45 miles solo). For some reason my ham strings were super sore the first hour of the ride, but finally warmed up. This happens every once in awhile; haven't really figured out why. Sometimes I can do a climb at the start of a ride without warming up without any issues, and other times I can warm up super easy and and then do a moderate effort up a short climb 10 min into the ride and my legs will be sore for 40 minutes afterwards (that was the case this passed July 5th). I would love to understand the physiology behind why only sometimes my legs are sore at start of a ride. Maybe they were still sore from the hammerfest on Tuesday or unhappy I skipped riding the day before (the 4th)? I had a super easy spin on Wednesday, but it was longer than I intended it to be (32 miles).

My 15" sprints are getting slightly better, too, but only slightly. Max power on my first sprints with power meter was 946 watts (two weeks ago). Tonight max power was 971. But the sprints are mostly as a tune up for the Tuesday group ride; not so much about building strength (though I do ride completely full gas on at least one of those sprints and about 96% to 99% on the rest).

I have a question/complaint about my Wahoo Elemnt. Something that I find very puzzling, given all the data the Elmnt gives you, it fails to provide one key piece of data that you'd think riders would be most keen to have, and that is a graph of the power output for each lap. Why isn't this included? It's pretty much the most important piece of data I need. I get a graph of my power output for the entire ride, squished together on a tiny graph, but it doesn't allow me to zoom in on any section to see any useful detail of that power, so it's pretty much completely useless. So basically I have no idea if I'm going too strong at the beginning of the 15" sprint and falling off as the sprint goes on, or what (the bike and I are bobbing too much to read the head unit while sprinting full gas). Anyway, it's a real head scratcher and disappointment for me that the Elemnt isn't able to display the data in a useful way. Anyone else bugged by this?

Thanks in advance if you managed to read this entire post!
Both Strava and Training Peaks do this.
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Old 08-16-19, 09:34 AM
  #27  
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UPDATE! My summer has been going really well. Been doing 6 rides a week, with about 3 of those hard or hardish. The program has remained the same: On Monday is 15" leg openers (or proper 15" sprints, and maybe an attack up the 4 minute climb to my house depending on the overall volume/intensity of the prior week (I work weekends so sometimes I'd get two rest days in a row). Tuesday is the 'ride out of my face' group ride. Wedendsay's recovery spin. Thursday used to be some sort of intermediate ride but in the last month or so it's been mostly some kind of interval work (3' hard 3' easy on a gradual climb) and a couple Thursdays ago I did 5x4' hill repeats on a 4' rolling climb. Fridays are a long ride at endurance pace (but I usually do it harder) Sunday is whatever I feel like doing (usually moderate ride, though the first month it was a second rest day due to my work schedule). For the first month or so the noticeable gains were quite slow coming, probably because I was doing too much volume for my fitness level in my impatience to not be so slow.... Then I finally allowed myself a "recovery" week (not really recovery, just slightly less volume) and after that I started noticing big improvements in my power output and speed. On my last Tuesday ride I hung with some of the top riders of the group ride (who usually drop me badly) and that was super satisfying (and a bit surprising!) (though most of the A+ riders were missing; still, there were strong riders in that group; all who rode over the winter). I also had a very strong Tuesday ride the week before that when, despite not riding smart (lots of brash attacks) I still had massive reserves towards the end of the ride to pull strong with the A stragglers (4 of us in a rotating paceline) and for once I was the one who was pushing the pace! Then one other guy who usually is *much* stronger than me (I was a little surprised he wasn't with the A+ riders where he normally is) started racing me up a little hill after we had been pace lining for like 20+ minutes and I was still feeling spritely and I just looked over at him and said "oh, we're racing are we?" as he started to pass me (I was pacing myself trying not to be a complete dick and leave the others behind) but when he started going a half wheel ahead of me I lit it up and he wasn't able to match my acceleration. Oh man, the recent power gains have been soooooo inspiring! If things keep going this well and I maintain my fitness over the winter I will seriously consider racing next year (I'll be 40).

It's super exciting to see these rapid gains after all this self doubt each time I tried to get fit again in the past after a series of unfortunate events and it never happening. And this time; largely (mostly) thanks to getting a power meter, I finally broke through the "fitness wall" and feel like I'm soaring now; like there is no limit in sight! I really was beginning to think I was genetically cursed, or that my collapsed lung I suffered 20 years ago was limiting my potential, but now I see I just needed to keep at it a little longer and train somewhat smartly.

The other big exciting thing that happened sort of overnight about two weeks ago was when I suddenly still had gas in the tank after 30 miles. Almost every ride for weeks on end I'd struggle so much to climb or ride hard after 30 miles. But the last two rides I keep having attacks up to the end of the 50 mile ride.

Last Sunday I really surprised myself when I did a 32 minute strava segment (rolling hills) and averaged 184 watts (I didn't even realize it was a segment), but it sure was fun to be able to go that fast without a wheel in front of me. My FTP on June 13th was 178. Now I estimate it to be 240 to 250 but I think it might be even higher for following reason: Jens Voigt (yes, the one and only legendary Jens Vogt who could suffer like none other) says he used to like doing a 40/20 exercise where he'd go a little above his threshold for 40 seconds then easy for 20, and repeat this 5 times and with a long zone 2 recover imbetween two sets. https://roadcyclinguk.com/how-to/my-...Ss5DUCF7p6S.97 Am I missing something here? This seems like it should be super easy for a pro?? especially a master of the pain cave? On GCN, their version of this workout was "hard" for 40" and easy for 20" and 10 reps per 3 sets with 5' easy between each set. To figure out what "hard" was meant to be I googled and found another version of the workout suggesting 120% of FTP for the hard portion (which is solidly into VO2 max territory). So I did a little math and saw that 1.2X250 = 300 watts for 40". I wasn't feeling as fresh as I was expecting yesterday so I decided I'd set the goal for the 40" wattage at 280 (I mean, could my FTP really have gone from 178 to 250 in two months?) But the thing is, the workout was much more manageable than I was expecting. People talk about this workout as being super tough, but it was not nearly as hard as trying to hang onto the A ride all summer! (but, really, very much a simulation of the A ride). I dunno if it was just the excitement of me actually, finally, doing a proper training session with a timer and a watt meter combined with my grave trepidation of this workout and wondering if I'd really be able to do it or what, but I just found that my legs were oh so game to do 300 watts for 40" with 20" rest 10X3 with two 5' rests between. Yes, there were moments towards the end of each session that were a bit difficult, but still, nothing like the pain and anguish and give it all hell of the A rides; I was never really at the end of my limit during those 40" efforts. Was I somehow not doing the workout right? Don't get me wrong, it was not easy, and getting on the gas again after 20", especially toward the end of each set, was mentally difficult, as each recovery 20" block felt shorter and shorter as I was being less and less recovered with each one, but each time I got back on the gas, I was like "oh, this isn't so bad, this is just like an A ride) and was able to keep up the wattage. A few times, I did struggle a little and the watts would fall off a bit (240 for a few seconds) but then I'd just kick it up a gear and pedal harder. Even though I was doing this workout on the road, I still managed to average each 40" very close to 300 watts. Overall, my average for all thirty 40" efforts was about just under 300 watts. They say you should only do this workout once every 10 to 14 days. Honestly, I think I could easily do this again next Thursday, which I guess suggests my target watt should have been higher or maybe my 20" spins could be a little harder (The average of those started around 90 or so and by the end of the third set were around 60 watts). I'm gassing myself multiple times a week; I don't see this workout as especially hard compared to my other workouts and the Tuesday night ride sufferfest (the recent hill repeats were also harder, but I was doing that by feel as much as wattage--that one I would not do more frequently then every two weeks as I did go to very close to the limit a couple times and 5 hill repeats is a lot (it was actually 6, but I didn't do a warm up and sort of used the first two as my warm up--first one I went very hard, second one I held back a little to allow my body to recover/warm up).

Anyway, for the first time in my life I really feel like I can call myself an athlete and a cyclist. And I just can't believe how well things are going. I guess another take away from this 8 week training block is that I did not miss a beat. I rode rain or shine; I always stuck to my program and never wavered. There was one day where I didn't do a recovery ride because it was raining, but I did 40 minutes on the rollers which was probably more beneficial than recovery ride since it was long enough to be a recovery ride with the added benefits of rollers. Oh, and the other thing I never miss a beat on is recovery. I've been taking recovery super seriously. I always do a 10 minute warm down after each ride and I never coast after killing myself up a climb or interval or whatever; I always keep the pedals moving over, even if it's only 25 watts! I think keeping the pedals moving over after a hard effort is really important for keeping the dreaded overtraining at bay.

This afternoon I'm doing a 66 mile ride with 5500' of climbing ; so during that ride I'll probably get a better idea of just how hard the 40/20 workout was yesterday!
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Old 08-16-19, 10:36 AM
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The other big exciting thing that happened sort of overnight about two weeks ago was when I suddenly still had gas in the tank after 30 miles. Almost every ride for weeks on end I'd struggle so much to climb or ride hard after 30 miles. But the last two rides I keep having attacks up to the end of the 50 mile ride.
Isn't this amazing? It feels like riding with someone else's legs. Someone else's much stronger legs. Enjoy that.
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Old 08-16-19, 10:41 PM
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@caloso Haha, yeah, except I get to 'borrow some other faster rider's legs' all the time, now!

So I guess I answered my question tonight about the 40/20 workout yesterday, because my body struggled to complete the 60+ mile ride (ended up only doing 56 miles). Somehow I lost nearly 5 pounds during the ride and hit a new low weight of 136lbs. (I'm not sure that's a good thing, though). My weight before getting back on the bike early this summer was about 148lbs. For the last couple months it's been fluctuating between 140 and 145. I dunno if maybe I just didn't eat or drink enough last 18 hours? I'm thinking I may have underestimated how taxing that 40/20 workout really was and didn't eat/drink enough after (though Wahoo/Strava both say I only burned 693 calories). It just didn't seem like an especially hard ride at the time and was only a 24 mile ride and one hour 23 min.

I weighed myself before the ride tonight and was 140. I then drank about 1.5 bottles of water; ate some food (light carbo snack and some protein powder) and drank two bottles during the ride and came back and was 136 lbs. I don't know what I'd do without protein powder. I get tired of eating. For awhile I was keeping up with the caloric intake, but seems I've slipped again! Whew! Sure does take a lot to keep this cycling thing going. I now have two days off the bike cause I work the entire weekend and hopefully I can get my hydration/calories sorted over next couple days. I think 144 to 145lbs (hydrated) is the right weight for me.
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Old 08-16-19, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Grotug View Post
@caloso Haha, yeah, except I get to 'borrow some other faster rider's legs' all the time, now!

So I guess I answered my question tonight about the 40/20 workout yesterday, because my body struggled to complete the 60+ mile ride (ended up only doing 56 miles). Somehow I lost nearly 5 pounds during the ride and hit a new low weight of 136lbs. (I'm not sure that's a good thing, though). My weight before getting back on the bike early this summer was about 148lbs. For the last couple months it's been fluctuating between 140 and 145. I dunno if maybe I just didn't eat or drink enough last 18 hours? I'm thinking I may have underestimated how taxing that 40/20 workout really was and didn't eat/drink enough after (though Wahoo/Strava both say I only burned 693 calories). It just didn't seem like an especially hard ride at the time and was only a 24 mile ride and one hour 23 min.

I weighed myself before the ride tonight and was 140. I then drank about 1.5 bottles of water; ate some food (light carbo snack and some protein powder) and drank two bottles during the ride and came back and was 136 lbs. I don't know what I'd do without protein powder. I get tired of eating. For awhile I was keeping up with the caloric intake, but seems I've slipped again! Whew! Sure does take a lot to keep this cycling thing going. I now have two days off the bike cause I work the entire weekend and hopefully I can get my hydration/calories sorted over next couple days. I think 144 to 145lbs (hydrated) is the right weight for me.
Are you tracking your CTL, ATL, TSB now? For me, the TrainingPeaks PMC has been very accurate at predicting my results on any given future day within the next week or so. I take morning resting and standing HR and HRV every day. I know pretty much how any ride is going to go. All this training adds up. You need to figure that out. The first thing that happens to enthusiastic folks like you who are getting great results is . . .overreaching.

Unexplained weight loss is a usual sign of overreaching, and is not what one wants to see. Don't worry so much. You're not getting ready for the TdF and your sponsors aren't going to leave you. Relax a little more. Life isn't all about getting faster and faster. All of a sudden there's . . .I'm not getting faster, I'm getting slower. Then what? It's a mental game. Take a long view. You're going to still be wanting to do this when you're 75. How to get from here to there?
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Old 08-19-19, 08:20 PM
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To the OP give this a try if you have access to the machine. Over the years I've included a wide variety of training methods and have seen gradual improvement in my riding. Recently, I added an exercise machine at the gym (2-3 times a week) that has improved my power especially up hills. I now consistently droping riders in my group that used to drop me. Frankly I'm surprised at this and my group cannot get over the improvement. I wondered if others have used this type of glute exercise machine? I do 3 sets per leg starting with 20 repetitions then 25 then 30. At the end my legs are burning. I will increase the number of reps to build stamina. The leg movement where you pushing back adds power to your legs when pedaling and especially noticeable up hills.

Glute Exercise Machine

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Old 08-20-19, 03:14 AM
  #32  
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Just lost my detailed reply. On other forums the text gets saved but I cannot retrieve it on this forum for some reason using history or the back button, so this rewritten reply will likely be super lame (I hate rewriting posts).

@Carbonfiberboy: Thanks for the tips/insights! I need TrainingPeaks Premium to track those metrics? I'll try to remember to check my Heartrate tomorrow morning to see how much variability it has (I don't have a WHOOP but I did watch a video on HRV that was fascinating and useful).

I have a 27 mile race on Sep 15th that finishes higher than it starts and much of it is comprised of rolling hills. My goal is to finish around one hour ten minutes (or less) as the front group usually finishes one hour 5 min (unlikely I'll be able to hang with the front group, but maybe if I do everything just right between now and then?)

About my TSS and IF scores: I feel that my FTP has gone up significantly since I took the test on June 13th. I've actually calculated that it has gone up by up to or more than 40% since I was able to complete the 40/20 exercise at 300 watts for the 40" portion of the workout (300 is 120% of 250: I made the estimate that my FTP was about 250 based on recent off the charts IF and TSS scores). The 40/20 workout suggests doing 120% of FTP for 40 seconds and easy spin for 20 seconds 10 times, and 3 sets total with 5 min between each set should be very difficult. My FTP on June 13th was measured at 178 (at a facility). Therefore it's hard to make use of my TSS and IF scores which are regularly "too high to be possible" since I no longer know my actual FTP. For example recently my shorter, moderately hard rides have IF scores of 1.12 (even on rides with lots of recovery in them) and the last two group rides have been 1.25 IF.

I just stumbled upon this interesting article that talks about overreaching and how some overreaching is necessary to get stronger (I was definitely overreaching for the first month of training). https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/f...s-on-the-bike/

The reason I thought I could increase my training load/intensity recently is because I saw a sharp increase in performance two plus weeks ago, which led me to believe my form was increasing and it was time to pile on some more fatigue! Sounds like I need to start tracking those metrics, though, since much of the past two plus months has been a guessing game. I definitely want to try to get my form right for Sept 15th and need to plan my next three weeks now to reach race day in peak form. So I probably don't want to be doing a bunch of guessing between now and then.

@tobey: thanks for the tip! I should be able to find one in my town.
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Old 08-20-19, 05:47 AM
  #33  
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Morning heart rate report: I woke up, went pee (very yellow) but weight good for being dehydrate: 140lb! Put on my heart rate strap; lay back down and my heart rate was 79. So I figured it might take awhile before it calms down. About a minute later (maybe two?) HR was 42. I thought the thing was broken! (I'm not a pro athlete?) I tried to feel for my HR but couldn't find it. Anyway, I saw it go to 43; then it dropped to 40 briefly, so figured it was working. I then went on my phone, checking mail, nothing too exciting... and HR went up to 47, hit 48 for a split second; then I put the phone down and the HR dropped to 42 in about 6 seconds. My guess this means I am rested and is example of good variable heart rate, but I don't really know.

Thanks again, everyone, for all great posts in this thread! I tell ya, data sure makes training more fun!

EDIT: after I posted this HR was at 50; I then watched it on the bike computer and it dropped to 43 in about ten or eleven seconds.

I then closed the computer for a minute or two and snuck a glance at the bike computer and for a split second I caught it at 39 before going to 40. (Was really hoping to see it go below 40. BTW, highest HR I've recorded is 171 about a month ago.


tl;dr HR fluctuating betwen 39 and 50 while lying in bed doing nothing, looking at phone and posting on forum on laptop.

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Old 08-20-19, 10:56 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Grotug View Post
Just lost my detailed reply. On other forums the text gets saved but I cannot retrieve it on this forum for some reason using history or the back button, so this rewritten reply will likely be super lame (I hate rewriting posts).

@Carbonfiberboy: Thanks for the tips/insights! I need TrainingPeaks Premium to track those metrics? I'll try to remember to check my Heartrate tomorrow morning to see how much variability it has (I don't have a WHOOP but I did watch a video on HRV that was fascinating and useful).

I have a 27 mile race on Sep 15th that finishes higher than it starts and much of it is comprised of rolling hills. My goal is to finish around one hour ten minutes (or less) as the front group usually finishes one hour 5 min (unlikely I'll be able to hang with the front group, but maybe if I do everything just right between now and then?)

About my TSS and IF scores: I feel that my FTP has gone up significantly since I took the test on June 13th. I've actually calculated that it has gone up by up to or more than 40% since I was able to complete the 40/20 exercise at 300 watts for the 40" portion of the workout (300 is 120% of 250: I made the estimate that my FTP was about 250 based on recent off the charts IF and TSS scores). The 40/20 workout suggests doing 120% of FTP for 40 seconds and easy spin for 20 seconds 10 times, and 3 sets total with 5 min between each set should be very difficult. My FTP on June 13th was measured at 178 (at a facility). Therefore it's hard to make use of my TSS and IF scores which are regularly "too high to be possible" since I no longer know my actual FTP. For example recently my shorter, moderately hard rides have IF scores of 1.12 (even on rides with lots of recovery in them) and the last two group rides have been 1.25 IF.

I just stumbled upon this interesting article that talks about overreaching and how some overreaching is necessary to get stronger (I was definitely overreaching for the first month of training). https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/f...s-on-the-bike/

The reason I thought I could increase my training load/intensity recently is because I saw a sharp increase in performance two plus weeks ago, which led me to believe my form was increasing and it was time to pile on some more fatigue! Sounds like I need to start tracking those metrics, though, since much of the past two plus months has been a guessing game. I definitely want to try to get my form right for Sept 15th and need to plan my next three weeks now to reach race day in peak form. So I probably don't want to be doing a bunch of guessing between now and then.

@tobey: thanks for the tip! I should be able to find one in my town.
As it was once said by early computer users, hit CTRL-A, CTRL-C every time a child is born in China. Yes, very frustrating.

Yes, TrainingPeaks Premium. It's worth the money. For HRV, I use a smart phone and an app, Elite HRV, which is inexpensive. To use an app like this, you need a transmitter and chest strap, which you may already have. I use a Bluetooth Polar H10, but ANT+ also works.

As was mentioned in another comment, to get an accurate FTP, you need to take a 1 hour test, since max power sustainable for 1 hour is the definition. Endurance is a big deal.

As I said earlier, one does have to go over to see where one's limits are. Too bad you don't have more data around that event. To take morning HRs, after your morning pee, lie down until your HR stabilized, then observe it for 3 minutes. Then stand up and watch it for an additional 3 minutes. Note the approximate average of the last 30 seconds of those standing 3 minutes and take that as your standing HR. The difference between your resting and standing HRs is your orthostatic HR. If your OHR get maybe 10 beats above normal levels, you're probably overreaching. Continuing to train with a high OHR can lead to overtraining. That limit is however personal. You have to take your HRs for a while to see what's going on. 40 resting HR is not unusual, it just means that you adapt very well, a good thing. Two things contribute: increased blood volume and increased heart ejection fraction, which latter is the result of a more muscular heart. The first thing happens pretty quickly, the second more slowly. I have a friend who has "My resting HR is 40" on his RoadID, to prevent tactical errors by EMTs.
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Old 08-20-19, 01:55 PM
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Congrats on your training. There is an interesting book you may like called Good to Go. It is principally about recovery but discusses many aspects of training and she discusses studies and how the results in even very well intended peer reviewed studies may be just wrong.

It provided me with another information set to assist me in evaluating different training and recovery ideas and applying them.
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Old 08-20-19, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
Congrats on your training. There is an interesting book you may like called Good to Go. It is principally about recovery but discusses many aspects of training and she discusses studies and how the results in even very well intended peer reviewed studies may be just wrong.

It provided me with another information set to assist me in evaluating different training and recovery ideas and applying them.
Took your rec - just Kindled it. Lord knows I've spent money on less useful stuff.
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Old 08-22-19, 05:51 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
[snip] To take morning HRs, after your morning pee, lie down until your HR stabilized, then observe it for 3 minutes. Then stand up and watch it for an additional 3 minutes. Note the approximate average of the last 30 seconds of those standing 3 minutes and take that as your standing HR. The difference between your resting and standing HRs is your orthostatic HR. If your OHR get maybe 10 beats above normal levels, you're probably overreaching. Continuing to train with a high OHR can lead to overtraining. That limit is however personal. You have to take your HRs for a while to see what's going on. 40 resting HR is not unusual, it just means that you adapt very well, a good thing. Two things contribute: increased blood volume and increased heart ejection fraction, which latter is the result of a more muscular heart. The first thing happens pretty quickly, the second more slowly. I have a friend who has "My resting HR is 40" on his RoadID, to prevent tactical errors by EMTs.
My lying down HR average over 3 minutes this morning was about 46. Last 30 second average while standing up was about 60 or 61. I did not ride yesterday (but I did go for a 5 mile walk with a few short rests during it). I also experienced a stressful event at work around 4:30pm yesterday; not sure if that would affect this morning, though.

I'm thinking instead of doing some kind of interval this afternoon I'll just take it easy. Not sure if I should still do a long ride on Friday? Maybe I'll do a flatter route so I don't go into zone 4.
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Old 08-22-19, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Grotug View Post
My lying down HR average over 3 minutes this morning was about 46. Last 30 second average while standing up was about 60 or 61. I did not ride yesterday (but I did go for a 5 mile walk with a few short rests during it). I also experienced a stressful event at work around 4:30pm yesterday; not sure if that would affect this morning, though.

I'm thinking instead of doing some kind of interval this afternoon I'll just take it easy. Not sure if I should still do a long ride on Friday? Maybe I'll do a flatter route so I don't go into zone 4.
#1 rule: Everybody's different. For me, a OHR of 14 is normal for being stressed, but not too much. 20 is bad news for me. 8 is in good condition, responding well. But that's just for me. One has to take HR every morning for quite a long time before one gets the feel for it. Totally worth doing though. It's like a PM - gotta have some metric. When I'm in good form, I'll see standing HRs of 54.
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Old 08-22-19, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Took your rec - just Kindled it. Lord knows I've spent money on less useful stuff.
Reading is always good. The author does a pretty good job of discussing various recovery modalities. The take away for me was that we humans are pretty perfect being a product of millions of years of evolution and our brains so advanced and plugged into our body that improvement is very difficult. The other message is that if we humans believe something is true, then for us, it is true or if we want it to be true we convince ourselves it is true. The result is that the benefit of belief yields results. This goes beyond simple placebo effect but is related.

For older athletes, we have other, ahem, "issues" that IMO, certain recovery modalities offer some mitigation that may or may not be proven in the lab. But it is still hard to separate actual, real, measured benefit from what is imagined. Imagined or real, positive results are good.
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Old 08-22-19, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
Reading is always good. The author does a pretty good job of discussing various recovery modalities. The take away for me was that we humans are pretty perfect being a product of millions of years of evolution and our brains so advanced and plugged into our body that improvement is very difficult. The other message is that if we humans believe something is true, then for us, it is true or if we want it to be true we convince ourselves it is true. The result is that the benefit of belief yields results. This goes beyond simple placebo effect but is related.

For older athletes, we have other, ahem, "issues" that IMO, certain recovery modalities offer some mitigation that may or may not be proven in the lab. But it is still hard to separate actual, real, measured benefit from what is imagined. Imagined or real, positive results are good.
That's my tag line. So true.
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Old 08-23-19, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
#1 rule: Everybody's different. For me, a OHR of 14 is normal for being stressed, but not too much. 20 is bad news for me. 8 is in good condition, responding well. But that's just for me. One has to take HR every morning for quite a long time before one gets the feel for it. Totally worth doing though. It's like a PM - gotta have some metric. When I'm in good form, I'll see standing HRs of 54.
This post is more for my own record keeping; basically I try to rationalize how fatigued I am based on how my ride went last night:

Resting HR this morning was about 44 avg and last 30s standing avg was about 59. I was going to stay in zone 2 last night, and of course I didn't.... I actually don't really know what my zones are by watts, but my Zone 3 by HR is 128-142. I decided I'd do a 30 minute zone 2 effort, and was going to stay at 120bmp, but 125bpm felt good, and then it kept creeping up to 130 so I decided I'd keep it between 120 and 130, but spent most of the 30min around 130bmp. I put in a small hill that brought my HR up to just above 140bpm briefly and by the end of the half hour (actually ended up going 34 minutes and averaged 192) my HR was 136 and I was feeling pretty good; my breathing was super relaxed and my legs were starting to get a bit tired, but I was by no means suffering. I finished the workout and my HR quickly recovered to about 112 (very briefly) before I decided I'd hit the hill again. I managed my effort going into it so that I felt good and wasn't going anaerobic at the start, and as I approached the top I realized I had basically slowly been building my effort the entire ride with that half hour creeping zone 3 effort, which is partly why I think I felt good and why it was a low perceived effort to bring my HR to a max for this short climb of 145bpm (I was a bit surprised this was as easy as it was, since I just spent a solid amount of time at 130+ BPM). At the end of the climb I went pretty hard, but didn't really push it; breathing was controlled, legs felt good (1:37 for the climb; 282 watts avg, 130bpm avg) and 3rd place on Strava for all time.

I went back down the hill and decided I was still feeling good and that my body was kinda telling me "hey, this is interval day, we like intervals" so I decided I'd see how I feel on the last climb and I hit that, controlling my effort more than the last time I took the KOM and beat my KOM by 7 seconds with less perceived effort, and also held 500+ watts for longer than I expected at the end of the climb: my max watts for the ride (the last steep section of the final climb of my ride) was 551W and my 30 second power based on the Elemnt power curve was 498 watts. I pushed myself at the very end of the climb, but didn't go out of my face; definitely went hard, though; and hit a max BPM of 163). I've never seen my power curve be so flat for so long; usually it's more 45 degrees for the first 30 seconds; this was pretty much a table top. Pretty sure that was a new record for 30 second power of any ride I've done to date (not including leg opener/sprint days). Here's a crazy stat: my highest 30s power for any ride I've done with a power meter is the first ride I did with a power meter; that first day when I went soooo hard on the sprints to see how high I could get the power. Hmmmmm... interesting. Although I think it's the highest because I did 9 sprints (about twice of what I normally do), not because I put out more power per sprint as compared to later sprints.

Today is the long ride. Should I try to stick to zone 2 for the entire ride? I usually start out zone 1 and 2 for awhile, then some hills take me to zone 3, then zone 4 on one or two hills, then zone 1 for awhile, then struggle to zone 2 / zone 3 the rest of the ride. I think I'm going try to stick to a relatively flat route and see if I can control myself and stay in zone 2 for the whole ride (with maybe a couple short punch efforts).

TL;DR how I felt and performed on ride last night indicates to me I'm not fatigued enough to take it easy.
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Old 08-24-19, 06:11 AM
  #42  
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Well that was interesting; first 25+ miles of my ride yesterday I was feeling fantastic; was struggling to keep it into zone 2 and not go harder. Was averaging about 170 watts and about 125BPM; then, inexplicably, pedaling became difficult to generate more than 100 watts. It may have been because I didn't eat enough; or maybe my legs can only do 170 watts consistently for an hour and a half before hitting fatigue. Nevertheless, I forced myself to push harder and maintain at least low end of zone 2. I also missed a turn and added 10 miles to my ride; which meant I got back pretty late (was getting dark). I recovered somewhat on the last leg of my ride, and my heart rate was higher per watts produced than it was during the first third of the ride (I've noticed this happen when I'm fatigued).

This morning my resting HR was about 45.5 (once it settled down it was very stable between 45 and 46). Last 30 seconds standing HR was about 58 BPM.
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Old 08-24-19, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Grotug View Post
Well that was interesting; first 25+ miles of my ride yesterday I was feeling fantastic; was struggling to keep it into zone 2 and not go harder. Was averaging about 170 watts and about 125BPM; then, inexplicably, pedaling became difficult to generate more than 100 watts. It may have been because I didn't eat enough; or maybe my legs can only do 170 watts consistently for an hour and a half before hitting fatigue. Nevertheless, I forced myself to push harder and maintain at least low end of zone 2. I also missed a turn and added 10 miles to my ride; which meant I got back pretty late (was getting dark). I recovered somewhat on the last leg of my ride, and my heart rate was higher per watts produced than it was during the first third of the ride (I've noticed this happen when I'm fatigued).

This morning my resting HR was about 45.5 (once it settled down it was very stable between 45 and 46). Last 30 seconds standing HR was about 58 BPM.
170w @ 125 HR is normal for you? Your drop-off probably had nothing to do with eating. Say you're JRA and you come to a little steep hill. You come up and hit it, your HR rises nicely, by the top you're breathing hard and your HR is still coming up like it always does. Fine. But suppose you do that and you just aren't feeling it. You look down and see your HR is not coming up normally even though you're breathing hard. That's not good. In the latter example you're overcooked and need at least one rest or easy day, maybe two. HR vs. power is a very important thing to watch. They should operate in tandem, though HR will always lag power by some normal amount of time, and you should know what normal looks like. I would think you've been riding long enough to know that.

It's also possible that you've been riding on the edge of glycogen depletion. If your power was still low toward the end and HR was going up, that's not a good sign. Enough more of that and you'll feel really tired and 16 mph will be your max speed. Usually hormonal exhaustion (overcooked) means HR drops off and it gets difficult to raise anything much over Z1 no matter how hard you push on the pedals. HR is sort of low-normal but there's no power, that's usually low glycogen. You can test that by drinking a half bottle of sports drink or taking a gel or shot blok. If things get way better in the next 15', low glycogen. If not, overcooked. If I'm in good condition, fueled, and ready to ride at the start, I can still raise sprint power and LTHR after 200 miles.
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Old 08-24-19, 08:01 PM
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Thanks for your reply.

I look at the 125BPM at 170 watts as a good thing. First off, what is normal for me is becoming unknown, because, I feel (I hope) Iím getting fitter and thus my watts are going up and I am entering new territories of fitness. Iím estimating my zones based on HR not power because I feel my power has gone up so much since my FTP test when those power zones were formulated for me.

Since I was feeling good and generating a lot of watts for a pretty low heart rate I took that to mean my zone 2 power was now up to 170 watts vs the upper end of 147 back when I had the test. Again, my HR was very easily going into zone 3 and I had to control my enthusiasm to keep it in upper zone 2.

For as long as Iíve ridden with a HR monitor Iíve had an overall very low HR; itís easily 30 beats lower than most of the guys on the A ride.

I have noticed the lag that HR has after increasing power. I guess what Iím confused about is why it rather suddenly became difficult (almost impossible) to maintain upper zone 2 HR and 170 watts when for the past hour and a half it was almost easy. I correct that it was really an hour st 170 watts, not an hour and a half since first half hour was warm up at low zone 2 and about 145 watts.

I ate three large wheat cereal bricks for breakfast and half pound of pasta for early lunch and headed out ad



Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
170w @ 125 HR is normal for you? Your drop-off probably had nothing to do with eating. Say you're JRA and you come to a little steep hill. You come up and hit it, your HR rises nicely, by the top you're breathing hard and your HR is still coming up like it always does. Fine. But suppose you do that and you just aren't feeling it. You look down and see your HR is not coming up normally even though you're breathing hard. That's not good. In the latter example you're overcooked and need at least one rest or easy day, maybe two. HR vs. power is a very important thing to watch. They should operate in tandem, though HR will always lag power by some normal amount of time, and you should know what normal looks like. I would think you've been riding long enough to know that.

It's also possible that you've been riding on the edge of glycogen depletion. If your power was still low toward the end and HR was going up, that's not a good sign. Enough more of that and you'll feel really tired and 16 mph will be your max speed. Usually hormonal exhaustion (overcooked) means HR drops off and it gets difficult to raise anything much over Z1 no matter how hard you push on the pedals. HR is sort of low-normal but there's no power, that's usually low glycogen. You can test that by drinking a half bottle of sports drink or taking a gel or shot blok. If things get way better in the next 15', low glycogen. If not, overcooked. If I'm in good condition, fueled, and ready to ride at the start, I can still raise sprint power and LTHR after 200 miles.
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Old 08-24-19, 08:10 PM
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This forum is hellbent on destroying my posts (just lost another post and had to post this remade, half formulated one before it was done because it started self destructing, too! [luckily Ďundoí saved it]).

I didnít get out on my ride until 4pm so I ate more protein powder and a little more pasta right before my ride. By an hour and a half I wasnít feeling hungry but I ate most of the banana; but still wasnít feeling hungry before eating it so I left a quarter of it for later. When my legs have out 90 minutes in I wasnít feeling hungry (finished the Banana and ate some cubes anyway). Usually when I run out of glycogen I really know it and am suddenly very hungry. I didnít feel hungry; my legs just werenít producing power and no longer felt like willing participants in this venture.

All my Friday endurance rides have had a lull in the middle where I struggle to get even into zone 2 on the flats, but those rides were all done in various zones without trying to keep in zone 2 (yesterday was the first time Iíve tried to maintain zone 2 on a long ride).

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Old 08-24-19, 08:23 PM
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So what Iím wondering is do my legs just not have the fitness to go more than an hour steady non stop at 170 watts? They seem to manage on the Tuesday night group rides where Iíll sometimes still feel very strong at the end of the ride; but those rides are very punchy with periods of rest. Yerstersay I really made a point to spend a solid hour in zone 2 HR and only dropped below very briefly when going down hills ending at a T or waiting to enter a busy road.

I suppose there are some differences between Tuesday sufferfest and Friday sufferfest. Tuesday thereís lots of coasting and surging. Friday I try to pedal the entire time even after hard, punchy efforts. I used to try to go as fast as I could tucking and coasting down hills on solo rides but since my brother didnít wrap the top part of the new aerodynamic bars I got per a bike fit; now I keep pedaling down hills, even if Iím peddling at 40mph (I canít safely supertuck anymore without the bar tape).

maybe my legs just arenít used to the constant effort beyond an hour and a half. Iím a bit disappointed and surprised that I havenít improved much on the endurance rides despite doing them every week.

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Old 08-24-19, 08:30 PM
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Maybe the reason Iím not improving much on the Friday endurance rides is because I havenít been doing them in a structured way; only spending a little time in zone 2, otherwise lots of zone 3 and 4 and 1.

my time spent at 300 to 500 watts, however, seems to be improving nicely.
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Old 08-24-19, 08:52 PM
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You talk about a training plan. A training plan is when all or almost all of your rides are specified in advance. Every time I get on my bike, it is to perform a specific workout which I've probably scheduled at least a week ago. Each ride has a purpose. I try to accomplish what I'm supposed to accomplish on the ride, no more, no less. So get with a program. The more you just ride around at varying intensities, the less you learn about riding. Less talk, more planning.

Your brother didn't wrap your bars the way you wanted? Whats wrong with your hands?

One does get tired. One purpose of training is to delay that point. One of the things one learns is what sort of training does that.
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Old 08-25-19, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Grotug View Post
Maybe the reason Iím not improving much on the Friday endurance rides is because I havenít been doing them in a structured way; only spending a little time in zone 2, otherwise lots of zone 3 and 4 and 1.

my time spent at 300 to 500 watts, however, seems to be improving nicely.
Since you could only hold 170w for an hour, that is now your FTP. Think about that.
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Old 08-26-19, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Since you could only hold 170w for an hour, that is now your FTP. Think about that.
Well, not quite....

I think part of the reason I struggle to maintain power throughout the 3+ hour ride is I'm never doing these long rides on fresh legs. They always come after Thursday's relatively short but intense days. I think I'll get a better idea of my FTP on race day (the race should be about an hour and ten minutes), as I'll have tapered before the race. I mean, I don't think anyone is establishing their FTP when there are currently some doubts about whether they aren't overreaching. Also, if my Normalized Power is as high as 220 watts over the course of Tueseday's two hour ride, my FTP surely is more than 170?
I thought I replied to your last post but I don't see it here (I'll paraphrase what I thought I wrote): I never had a very official training program; I think the next step for me is to pay for Training Peaks and find a suitable training program to upload into my Wahoo. I feel a coach would be useful right now, but not really sure I want to spend the money. The only reason I'm dragging my feat on buying Training Peaks is because I don't feel confident yet I would know how to use the site (so far I still haven't figured out how to use the non-paying subscription I have). For example, I read the following on the website: "If you are a Garmin, Polar, Suunto, or MyFitnessPal user click the icon to enable sync." ... and what if I'm a Wahoo user?
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