Phatman

Considering a move in the next year or so, my job in Asheville looks like its going to be ending and there's not much in my field available in the area. I love cycling--road, mtb and gravel and Asheville mostly provides, but for an engineer with an odd specialization there's not much here for me to make money with outside of my current job. So with that in mind, I'm targeting a city with a better job market and the four cities I've ID'd above have a really great concentration of jobs for me. Schools, COL, weather are big factors that I'm considering, but I wanted to post on this site to see how the cycling is in these places. So if you love riding bikes, which of these places would you choose? Charlotte vs DC vs Houston vs Detroit?

Yan 

I only have familiarity with DC and Detroit, and out of those two DC is far better.

Troul 

I do NOT recommend Detroit... Unless you really want to hate life that much more than you might already do.

howaboutme

I live in the DC area (northern VA) and am somewhat familiar w/ Charlotte (wife lived there) and have been to Detroit (and it's surrounding areas) for business numerous times. Although it's been a decade or so, I have done business in Houston to have some familiarity. If you take everything (job market, weather, amenities, etc) into consideration, there is no question the DC area will come out on top. In a nutshell, MI weather is something to get used to. Houston is just sprawl and miles of concrete. Charlotte may be a close 2nd because of the climate but nothing really compares to the stability of the DC job market and the amenities it provides. Yes, traffic is horrible depending on your commute but you can mitigate that. You also have to get over how expensive it is to live here (but your salary should be higher to help).

Back to cycling, great group of people here w/ plenty of places to ride. If you are willing to get in the car, you have unlimited roads, terrain. Just note that it's not flat like Florida. Happy to answer any questions.

bboy314

I’ve spent time in all of those cities except Detroit. Done the most cycling in Houston. It’s a huge city with tons of car traffic and generally aggressive drivers. Cycling is ok if you stick to the dedicated paths, of which there are some good ones. Flat as a pancake. If schools are a priority, then hopefully you can budget for private school because the state is currently aggressively dismantling the once decent public school system. There is much I love about Houston and its culture, but with schools and cycling as priorities for me as well, I’m not interested in living there, even though we have close family in the city.

Charlotte and DC are large cities too, though not Houston large, but both have more cycling infrastructure, especially DC. And both will be closer to mountain and gravel riding spots for sure.

delbiker1 

I was in the Houston area last November, did not take a bike. Thought I would rent one while there. That did not happen due to the areas I saw not being conducive to pleasant, safe cycling. To be honest, it’s downright ugly!
I have ridden in the DC/Baltimore area, but it has been a number of years. There is a lot of good cycling in areas, including a lot of miles of recreational paths. There are a lot of cyclists in those areas. Depending on what area you are in, you may have to use a vehicle to get to the type of riding you want to do.

howaboutme

I would just clarify that yes Houston is technically large in land area, it is not dense (yes, I know there's a downtown area where the light rail is and the Medical center but even that is not dense like DC, Boston, etc).

tcs

Houston: 12 mo. riding season. 672 sq mi (1740 sq km), so it's impossible to accurately say "Houston is this one thing."

https://m.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=23167625

bboy314

Sure, these are all pretty large cities so the same can be said for any of them. However, other people’s experience can probably still be helpful to the OP. The thread linked here seems to reference a ride in Schulenburg which is a good couple hours drive from the center of Houston.

datlas 

Can’t you stay there and WFH??

jack pot 

i have biked and moto'd H town for over 30 years and it aint a drive friendly place for 2 wheel traffic BUT you are within easy driving distance to great trails & woods & parks & AUSTIN

Ramshackle

I can't speak to the other places, but I lived in Houston for 13 years. Not much biking spaces for a longish ride (20 miles or so). Getting out of town for biking isn't easy given the constant traffic gridlock, which these days is almost 24 hours a day. You'll spend a good deal of your day in a car navigating 20+ lanes. Instead of building a rail system they just add more lanes. Biking isn't 12 months a year unless you can tolerate 97 F deg with 95% humidity. Summer in Houston is like winter in N. MN--you don't want to be out much. Houston is a place to live fairly cheaply and make a decent salary while planning your escape. It's not surprising that Texas ranks only 39th in happiness among the states.

MarcusT

When you say Detroit, I do not believe you're talking Detroit city but rather one of the suburbs. In the city proper, they are trying to make it bike friendly but it is slow going,. In the outer parts it is flat with many side roads and farm areas. To get to more natural areas you'll need to ride a fair bit

Troul 

agriculture is more central/northwestern a ways past lansing.
Smaller "farming" is spotty down state, but those a "herbal" farms these days.
Drivers & most businesses in MI do not favor someone riding a road bicycle, even tho the laws are in place requiring society to do no harm.

MarcusT

Yes, It's been a while since I lived there, but at one time, once one went past 14 mile, it was farm country, now I believe it goes to 22 mile

Phatman

Thanks for the comments, guys, keep them coming, would be interested to hear more about Charlotte. FWIW, I grew in the Baltimore/DC burbs (Columbia) and moved to Raleigh for college, so I know that area pretty well, but I've never really ridden close in to DC and never on the other side in NoVa. I've driven though the awful traffic south of DC, so I know about that, but man its frustrating to see so many jobs paying $50-80k more than my current one posted there. Its good to know the cycling is pretty good there though.

Cool, good to know. How's the racing scene? There used to be a Wednesday night series in Greenbelt, is that still a thing? Where is the nearest mountain biking to DC, is it Patapsco/Avalon?

Man, I wish. Most "remote" jobs in my field are just 100% travel, which I'm not into since I've got two little kids at home. The best alternative I've encountered is one where I'd have to do 1 week a month at the corporate mothership in Oregon and a couple more days spread throughout the month, which means that I'd probably be gone all the time.

Dang man, you're killing my Houston ***** here. My wife is from Louisiana and she's pulling for H-town but I've never been there. Sad that its a neverending concrete jungle. It sounds like it depends on where you're at in town though, any place better than another for biking there?

And FWIW, I'm actually okay with heat when exercising. I'm a crazy heavy sweater anyways so it really doesn't matter to me if its 75°F or 97°F, I'm soaked through in 5 minutes anyways. I just keep pouring fluids in and I'm fine. I did a 3 hour ride last summer in 103F and 95% humidity outside of Shreveport last year. I was totally fine, I just drank 9 bottles of water.

Yeah, probably not Detroit proper. The home base for the company I work for now is in Auburn Hills, which is ~45 minutes north of Detroit. None of the positions I've seen have been in Detroit proper, they're all in the Northern Suburbs. Does that change anyone's opinion of Detroit? If it makes any difference, Detroit is a long shot, my wife HATES cold and has said it better be a DAMN good opportunity if we're moving to Detroit.

Trakhak

I commuted from Baltimore to DC for 20 years, until 2020. One 5-mile bike ride in Baltimore, lock up at the train station, take train to DC, unlock bike 2, ride 5 miles to office, back in the afternoon. Many, maybe most employers in DC subsidize commuting costs - I think my train fares were entirely paid for by the .org I worked for.

If you find a place to live outside the city, you might find it convenient to ride to the Metro subway station and bring your bike onto the train. From a quick search:

Bicycles and scooters are welcome on Metro at no additional cost! What Can I Bring? Your bicycle or electric scooter must be smaller than 80" long, 48" high, 22" wide. Gas powered vehicles are not permitted.

Jughed

I'm from the Northeast, born in Philly now live in rural Maryland...

I hate the Northeast, really hate the cities in the area - and to me personally - DC is a clusterbleep of the highest order. Expensive, crowded...

I've lived in and absolutely love the Carolinas. I don't know much about or cycling around Charlotte proper - but it's just a drive away from some of the best cycling on the east coast. Greenville is on my list as well.

Take a drive up I95 and note the change in driving/attitude the moment you get north of Richmond. Fast, aggressive, busy, crowded, messy - to me, the people and the city life are the same.

Steel Charlie

Judging from past experiences some time ago I'd offer that DC and Detroit will be challenging in a number of ways. I lived in Texas when I was a kid. No amount of money would take me Anywhere back there now.
Best of luck

fishboat

Over my working years I was once offered to move to the Detroit area as part of a plant move. I spent a fair amount of time there getting the new plant going, but passed on the move. I didn't bike there, but found the environs rather depressing. There are some nice suburbs within 45-75 minutes of the downtown area(a couple people moved to Ann Arbor), but traffic, no snowplowing in the parts of the city I experienced, and the rather rundown look of many areas..pass.

Was also offered a job/move to Charlotte. I visited the Charlotte area and drove around the suburban areas south and south-east of Charlotte proper for several days looking at housing. I passed. The downtown area(10 years ago) was a ghost town after 5pm. Cultural opportunities..didn't see much existing or on the horizon. The people assisting us with the move mentioned, "..you move here WITH a job, not move here LOOKING for a job.." as opportunities are limited with the huge population growth. Naturally, that varies with profession. The suburbs...the area is growing so fast they(NC & South Carolina where LOTS of folks live that work in the Charlotte area) have a hard time keeping up with building adequate transportation infrastructure. You can get in a traffic jam in the Fort Mills area during the morning rush hour just getting out of your neighborhood, let alone on a more major arterial road. People drive fast as they're often delayed in getting where they want to go. Commuting traffic on the arterials and expressways can be really bad.

Once out of the city and on the more rural 2-lane roads...I found them to be very narrow roads(lanes). I had a claustrophobic feeling driving on them. I had a dump truck ahead of me one day and I swear the lane width was just a couple inches wider on each side than the tires. Zero shoulder..just a ditch, no bike lanes. The road surfaces are very good in general, but the terrain is mild up and down and lots of curves. Not great site lines. I thought many times as I was driving around many areas, "I'll die riding these roads". The longest (non-MTB) bike trail I could find in the Charlotte area was downtown and just over a mile long. There are MTB trails a ways outside the city. I'm from the Milwaukee area (60+ years now) that has an extensive trail system where you can ride all over the city, suburbs, and state from downtown. Road riding state-wide isn't an issue as we have a more-conscious bike culture. I have family about 30 minutes north of Charlotte. They moved there 3-4 years ago(both professional, just out of college). They love it. He used to ride bike though has hung it up for the time being as there's no place he finds desirable to ride. Different people value different things.

While I'm sure there are plenty of road riders in the Charlotte area..I chose not to be one of them. More power to them though...

Houston..never been there, no desire to visit Texas..it's a big world and there's lots of places to visit. Austin is a bright spot, but suffering from extensive growth, much like Asheville. TX in general..not my cup of java.

DC..I've been there on business and a biking vacation. Would like to visit the area again. While traffic can be a challenge, I generally like the area. Seems to be very bike-able, at least from riding there and research on biking areas I've done. I think there's a healthy bike culture and infrastructure there and lots of cultural opportunities in general.

If I HAD to move to one of these 4 cities..I'd go DC, no brainer. If I were you, I'd do some research on the secondary tier of cities where you might find good employment as I'd bet there are other options that are more desireable than the 4 cities you've mentioned.

howaboutme

I pretty fresh in the cycling scene myself so that is a caveat. I have dome some research on racing and there appears to be a very robust scene. I've heard of the Greenbelt series. One of the biggest is Trade Zone in Upper Marlboro, MD as well as the Sally Ride. You can rest assured, you can get your racing fix here.

I don't do XC but you can check out Prince William Forest Park (great road circuit plus XC trails), Burke Lake Park, etc. Again, I stick to VA.

If you use a car, you can get to some great riding in both VA or MD, such as Shenandoah, or closer to VA in Marshall/The Plains, VA area or SugarLoaf Mountain area in MD. Tons of gravel here too.

The commute is not as bad post-COVID as most allow WFH at least some days. Plus, if you can split your travels between car and train/bus, it helps.

Phatman

Yeah, the roads are narrower in the eastern part of the US, I'm fairly used to that. I was shocked by how wide the roads are in the Detroit metro, I guess that's for snow removal?

Enh, I'm in a second (third?) tier right now. The way the current job market is, you've got to jump jobs to get raises, otherwise you'll fall behind your market value. The problem with the small towns is that there's really only one or two jobs that take advantage of my engineering specialization, so if you want to hop jobs, you've got to move. Or if your industry is being prematurely wound down and you're about to find yourself out of a job.

Either way, I'm tired of moving, hence the desire to find a place with a lot of jobs.

fishboat

Yah..I found the narrow lanes uncomfortable even in a car. In Wisconsin, MI, MN...the lanes offer much more room...like a couple feet. That extra room is helpful when cars pass. On a narrow lane there's no extra room so any obstruction..like a bike.. nearly stops traffic if there's oncoming traffic. Drivers get annoyed and things get worse. It wouldn't be so bad if there was a dedicated bike lane built into new roads, but, while I saw plenty of new (and old) roads while in the Charlotte area, I don't remember ever seeing a bike lane. Up here(WI), most of the time,..you re-surface or build a new road, in addition to a wide lane, it has a bike lane or ample paved shoulder that serves as a bike lane.

Understandable on your moving criteria. There's lots on inputs into a decision like that..all you can do is choose the best option that checks the most boxes. Significant pay increases by moving from job to job has existed for many years. That's the way pay structures are built in many larger companies. I was fortunate..very good pay(for making significant contributions) in a small town (for my skillset-chemistry/engineering/mathematics) while I was there. Of course now neither job exists in that small town as both divisions of that company were split off, sold, and moved out of town. Rather than move..I retired early..and haven't thought about either job since. I don't miss being part of the work-force.

...and the world marches on..

Hope you land in a good spot.

fishboat

In my experience, primarily the winter of 2009, the City of Detroit only plowed emergency routes. All other roads are unplowed for the winter, due to cost reasons I'd guess. Never saw such a thing in my life anywhere else. The snowpack on busy roads can be a foot above the pavement with the occasion snow-pot-hole 10 inches deep. Bizarre. I remember a 60 Minutes show many years ago where they were comparing snow removal capability between Boston and Detroit (similar sized cities by the measure they used). Boston had something a 900-1100 snow removal trucks (including those vehicles able to be converted to a plowing vehicle). Detroit had something like 3 trucks.

In cities where they do plow..like most any other city in the snowbelt, they plow past the edge of the road (or up to the curb) to make sure there's enough room for the next plowing event. Wider roads aren't due to snow plowing. If I were to guess..wider roads have a lot to do with safety and higher taxes. In the Carolinas you pay less in taxes and frankly you get less(I took a hard look at this prior to considering a move). I'm spoiled by living in the Milwaukee area. We have dedicated bike trails all over the place. The Oak Leaf Trail alone travels about 100 miles around the city and near suburbs. We have parks all over the place and the bike trails run through many of them. Many of the parks have permanent or traveling beer gardens. The local trails connect to state wide trails to the north and west. Music plays in the some of the parks in the summer, most often for free. We have a large music fest each summer for about 10 days (Summerfest). Lots of venues for top music artists to play. Lots of options for live theater. Lots of options for ethnic food markets(German, Italian, Polish, Greek, Thai, French, Chinese, Mexican....) and farmers markets in most communities............ and then I compared all that to Charlotte..which I found to have none of this, or so little it didn't matter. Maybe some of this is there, but in the week I spent visiting and researching the town(2015)..I didn't find it.

OP..take a look at Milwaukee. You could do much worse. The more I travel the better I think I have it right at home.

Vintage Schwinn

(1) CHARLOTTE, NC

Number one by a long shot over, HOUSTON, and WASHINGTON DC.

You would have to be an idiot in my opinion to even consider DETROIT!


Houston is a thriving metropolis however it is too big, meaning white knuckle Interstate commutes when it is raining, foggy or experiencing heavy thunderstorms.
Houston is very much like Atlanta in that spaghetti, spider web of eight lane interstates with so much traffic going 90mph even at 4:00AM on Sunday morning.
The nice suburbs are at least a 40 minute commute into the city when weather and traffic flow are perfect. It is always one and a half times or twice as long a commute about 30% of the time. The upside is that Houston is nice and big, so if you like big cities, there is no shortage of things to do and concerts/sporting events to attend. There are a number of first class golf courses in the Houston metro area. There is also a strong Tennis community there in Houston.
Houston's population and congested 30mph to 45mph roads with everyone from 16 to 96 driving a big full size SUV or a big full sized Pickup truck at at least 12 to 18mph over the posted speed limit at all times.

DC is too congested, The climate in Washington DC is too cold from Dec 15th to Feb 15th. Although Washington DC is warmer than what you have been experiencing in Asheville, NC over the past few winters, it is my opinion that you really have got to be bananas to want to live anywhere where it is really cold. Minneapolis-St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, St. Louis, Philadelphia, Atlantic City, NJ, New York City, Boston, etc. Detroit is a dump unless you're already a multi-millionaire. Detroit is too cold but more importantly it is a city with problems and you will be paying super high property taxes on only decent neighborhoods, where in Charlotte or Houston, your property taxes would be much lower and your neighborhoods would be ten times nicer than in Detroit. Sure, if you're earning a lot of dough, for example, above 1.5 million annually, then Detroit might be tolerable but beyond that Detroit is too much of a dump that is also freezing cold.

The South is where you want to be, excepting all of Mississippi, all of Louisiana, all of Alabama, except Mobile. Atlanta Georgia is great but it is too big with the long commute times on the Interstates that web "Spaghetti Junction". If you don't enjoy driving an 85mph pace in heavy traffic with at least four lanes of traffic with exits on both right and left sides, you will experience great stress while driving in Atlanta, and Houston. Washington DC is not quite as bad but it is also bad, although not as fast as Houston or Atlanta.
Charlotte NC is a big city that still has the feel and traffic of a much smaller city than it is.
Charlotte NC is only about 4 hours from the nicest ocean front beaches in the United States (all located in South Carolina)......Hilton Head ISLAND, SC(closer to Savannah GA), and also Isle of Palms, SC (off of Charleston SC). Those are two of the nicest oceanfront beach areas in the entire country. The Atlantic Ocean water temp is very warm there from May to mid September. Both North Carolina and South Carolina have much to offer. The huge issue though is that if you have young school aged children that you MUST live in the area with the public Best Schools -OR- you must consider tutoring/closely monitoring your children's learning, or consider sending them to a top flight parochial/private high school in the area.
For decades, the southern public schools were indeed improving but since the Lottery has provided for the possibility of free in state University tuition if a child maintains an A grade average all through high school, schools have simply allowed for easier standards so that students can and do get the lottery funded in state University tuition. What has not changed though is the in state University curriculum. Yes, little Johnny and little Susie get in, but they flunk out of Univ. of South Carolina before Christmas of Freshman year. Univ. of South Carolina is a party school but folks coming there today are not as much of the Jethro Bodine types as you may have had with the freshman class of 1972. Should such bogus "lottery A grade" recipients such as Johnny and Susie get into Clemson University, they have zero chance of finishing the first year, even with 24 hour a day tutoring.
Beyond that though, the Weather is great in Charlotte about 320 days of the year. A few days in Dec might be cold, and it might be cold between Jan 10th thru Feb 15th every year but beyond that, you have Spring like weather from Feb 17 to May 20th, and Summer like weather from May 21 to Sept 25th each year....temperatures are again Spring like from the end of Sept thru about Nov 5th, with Fall like temperatures from about Nov 6th to the end of the year. Yes, it can get hot as hell 95F to 98F with high humidity during late June through mid August but you'd still probably have 78F low temps in the 6AM, 7AM hours during those scorching late June, July, and August summertime days.
Charlotte may be one of the nicest cities in the nation if you still are in your "career", working for the man, years....
Once you get to "Critical Mass" and wealthy retiree status, then you can live in possibly other areas that do not have the same opportunities if you're still 'working for the man', slaving for the company, in the ultimate rat race.

I'm an opinionated idiot and what you have read is just one idiot's opinion, and nothing more than that.
I am like Schultz.
I know nothing.


I do believe is the most important thing to consider is where and what will make you and your spouse the happiest.
Money is secondary. I am sure that you are supremely smart and that you will do great everywhere. Your compensation package will reflect that.
The differences will be so insignificant in the whole sum of things.
YOU KNOW YOU. Do what makes yall the happiest!
You're not locked into being there for a long time, if yall find that you don't find that you are enjoying whatever area that you pick.
Again, remember this is just the advice of an old idiot...
My opinion is that do what makes you and your spouse the happiest.
Nobody celebrates and looks back at what they did while working for the man......(unless perhaps you discovered the cure for Polio, or you kicked the game winning field goal in Super Bowl V)
People celebrate and look back on events and milestones with close family and friends.
We all have a limited time on this earth. Listen to the Terry Jacks #1 hit from 1974 for a reminder, wake-up call.
Don't squander the time that you do have with you and your spouse's extended family.
Your parents and your spouse's parents will not be around forever.
Sadly, there is a chance that as they get beyond 65, that one of them develops dementia/Alzheimers that robs both them and you of making the memorable celebratory events and vacations that you planned to do when you get the time on your schedule. Life has its own schedules.
Like the old, Cats In The Cradle song, goes, .."..but I don't know when, but you'll know we will have a good time then...
.......As Terry Jacks sang in his #1 hit, Seasons in The Sun..................."We had joy, we had fun, we had seasons in the sun......"
Charlotte will give you more of the warm sunshine without the stressfully long white knuckle interstate commutes of the other 3 cities.
You will get more for your money in Charlotte. The quality of life is better in Charlotte NC is better than in the other 3 cities.
You have a good Airport in Charlotte NC that is easily accessible and will allow you to get to any other city anywhere in the world, via connecting flight somewhere else.
STILL, HAVING A GOOD AIRPORT REALLY CLOSE TO YOU, IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR BEING WITHIN AN HOUR'S DRIVING DISTANCE OF YOUR's or YOUR SPOUSE's PARENTS -or- FROM YOUR ADULT CHILDREN, IF THAT IS SUPREMELY IMPORTANT TO YOU!
If you love cold weather, and Asheville NC can be brutal for a Southern Winter because of it's elevation, you might like the cold winter of Detroit.
I hate cold weather and I am extremely fit, so I don't mind the very hot, and humid summertime in the Deep South.
I like being outdoors as much as possible. My time is entirely my own and has been for many years since I retired.
I've got many things to do and there is no way in hell that I'd live anywhere where you cannot play tennis, golf, and ride a bike in January.
I have some old pals that I will see at the tuna-mint next week, when we go to Augusta next week. They talk about snow on the ground and hoping that Spring will arrive soon.
They live in the frozen tundra, way up north. I tell them that they have to wait until the 5th of May for it to get warm enough to do anything outside while wearing a shortsleeve shirt.
I keep telling them that they are wasting valuable time and that they should just retire and enjoy the good life and the warm weather, but they are workaholic corporate titans who are enormously compensated. I keep telling them that they already have more money than all of their dumbass children could ever spend in their lifetime, if they inherited it all tomorrow.
Whatever floats your boat... Seriously, if it wasn't for their wives essentially making them take time away and travel to places and events, I don't think that they would take more than a week off during the whole year. I guess it just goes to show that everybody has a different idea about quality of life and balancing time with family and work.