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Are Cat 1 racers considered pros?

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Are Cat 1 racers considered pros?

Old 08-05-20, 05:34 PM
  #201  
colnago62
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
Unless you're a sprinter, or a track sprinter. Chris Hoy has been said to exceed 2500 watts.
Not really. Chris Hoy was one of the first of the big gear sprinters. He was known for taking people long. He had both high peak , but was also able to hold fairly high wattage for a long time. Pervis was kind of that way too. He did like a 56 second kilo, which is all about holding wattage vs merely hitting a high peak. Donít you think Kittel was like that too? If you gave him a straight shot to the finish line, he was hard to beat.
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Old 08-05-20, 05:42 PM
  #202  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
Not really. Chris Hoy was one of the first of the big gear sprinters. He was known for taking people long. He had both high peak , but was also able to hold fairly high wattage for a long time. Pervis was kind of that way too. He did like a 56 second kilo, which is all about holding wattage vs merely hitting a high peak. Donít you think Kittel was like that too? If you gave him a straight shot to the finish line, he was hard to beat.
Kittel came along late in Cavendish's reign. Would have been interesting to see more of them with both on form. Remember Michael Hubner? Another monster.
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Old 08-05-20, 08:01 PM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
Kittel came along late in Cavendish's reign. Would have been interesting to see more of them with both on form. Remember Michael Hubner? Another monster.
Yes, though I think Cavendish would have the edge. He has no fear. Michael Hubner was very good.
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Old 08-06-20, 08:26 AM
  #204  
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I read Sir Chris Hoy’s book. I am not sure that he ever had a pro license since he raced for British Cycling. Although the queen did knight him. He is famous for World Cup, Olympics, Pan Am Games, world records and etc. He would only need a UCI amateur license. He may have raced in a 6 day event at which time he would need a pro license but 6 day events are a bit like the WWE where showmanship and personality are as important as speed.
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Old 08-06-20, 10:04 AM
  #205  
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He had that.

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Old 08-06-20, 10:15 AM
  #206  
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
I read Sir Chris Hoyís book. I am not sure that he ever had a pro license since he raced for British Cycling. Although the queen did knight him. He is famous for World Cup, Olympics, Pan Am Games, world records and etc. He would only need a UCI amateur license. He may have raced in a 6 day event at which time he would need a pro license but 6 day events are a bit like the WWE where showmanship and personality are as important as speed.
Originally Posted by big john View Post
He had that.

He does a good interview, also. British Cycling sends a lot of their riders to six day events.

Last edited by colnago62; 08-06-20 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 08-06-20, 11:21 PM
  #207  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
No, for the third time, I think you, for whatever reason, are unable to see past your own limited experiences, and I think you are posting 100% irrelevant things that have nothing to do with anything being discussed.

And I think you're trying to make ridiculous correlations. TDF versus a crit? Marathon versus a mile? It's bananas.
This topic/thread is about [USA] Cat 1 and [USA] pro. While not an actual racer, I know a lot about that. My posts were simply about speed. Your experience racing and my experience as a fan, are different, but I expect I have the hours to justify my views. Because you don't experience these kinds of riders does not mean they don't exist in the 10s or near hundreds. One only needs to look at stats from races and Strava to know the youth go faster, which is what I said. I did not say they could win WT races, just that they were faster. "Top juniors" - LUX, Hot Tubes, Byrds, formers Specalized, Swift... More than a handful, just go faster.
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Old 08-07-20, 05:01 AM
  #208  
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You provided an example of a HS miler being faster than an elite marathoner at a mile. It just simply isn't true. Likewise with WT riders racing and winning track races. WT races are slower for reasons related to distance, tactics, and motivation. But those same WT riders can rip up shorter distances as well. That they don't own strava is likely more due to interest, and time. If you're racing for a big pay check why bother with some non paid social media thing? Who cares? Let Gaimon build an empire around it. I'm not sure why you don't think a GT winner could come to the states and take a huge variety of strava segments were it not for the fact that they don't really matter. Could Froome win a crit? I bet he could attack from the line a TT the whole thing. Other than that I reckon the inherent crashiness would be the limiter. It's cool that you think your kid and his buddies are the best in the world (hey I dig my kid too) at some aspect of the sport but it come across as mere helicoptering. There's just not a lot that would indicate there's any truth to it.

Last edited by gsteinb; 08-07-20 at 05:36 AM.
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Old 08-07-20, 06:07 AM
  #209  
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Not only do they not have the interest, it would probably interfere with their training to try to take a whole bunch of Strava KOMs (unless they were exactly spaced to hit their intervals on the day that they were doing intervals). There were a lot of complaints about how the women took the recent virtual Tour de France on Zwift a lot more seriously than the men and made it a lot more entertaining. I'd imagine that it wasn't that the men couldn't have raced harder or with better tactics, but that it wasn't in their training plan to blow themselves up with short efforts on Saturdays and Sundays for 3 consecutive weeks while they were getting ready for the upcoming (?) real TdF plus potentially other races before it that will bring their team more serious money and more visibility for their sponsors. The women, on the other hand, were in a position where they needed as much visibility as they could get (and apparently their prize money was equal to the men's), so they had been training specifically with that in mind and it was built into their schedule, not as a roadblock as they tapered for something else.
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Old 08-07-20, 06:15 AM
  #210  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
This topic/thread is about [USA] Cat 1 and [USA] pro. While not an actual racer, I know a lot about that. My posts were simply about speed. Your experience racing and my experience as a fan, are different, but I expect I have the hours to justify my views. Because you don't experience these kinds of riders does not mean they don't exist in the 10s or near hundreds. One only needs to look at stats from races and Strava to know the youth go faster, which is what I said. I did not say they could win WT races, just that they were faster. "Top juniors" - LUX, Hot Tubes, Byrds, formers Specalized, Swift... More than a handful, just go faster.
Speed alone means nothing much unless you are comparing like for like terrain and other conditions such as wind, temperature, altitude, race tactics - you can't really judge by stats unless the riders themselves that you want to compare are in the same event. Indoor track cycling might be the only exception really where the conditions are similar, but even then, riders race to the conditions and what they need to do on the day to win.

Even more so with different types of events let alone racing in different regions, countries. Racing in a crit vs a 150km 2500m climbing Gran Fondo, for me, as an example, is vastly different. My approach, tactics, max speed, average speed etc are not the same based upon a whole range of factors. The same will be true of different races over different routes even if the same type of race.

You mentioned Strava. I am 51 years old and have nearly 100 KOM's from the last 12 months. Makes me look good beating much younger guys, especially given the Pro and Cat 1 talent here and it is a thrill to beat Thomas de Ghent's hill segment etc from one of his training days. Does that make me faster than the youth? On Sunday I'll be riding with cyclists with far fewer or no Strava KOM's who will drop me on hills and be hard as hell to stay with - if I get my tactics just right, I might be able to win a sprint or two. Strava means nothing. KOM's are nice to target for training but not comparable to actual racing where everyone is facing the same conditions, same competition. Speed on Strava - mostly wind-assisted, mostly won due to hitting a segment on a better day. The same applies to race conditions. No two are alike.

In terms of lost talent, every country experiences this - cycling is an expensive sport to get into due to the cost of equipment and fewer resources compared to other sports such as soccer etc plus the fact that unless you are in the top 10% of Pro's, you won't earn very much. Huge amounts of untapped cycling talent in Africa, South America and much of Europe from kids being lured into more lucrative sports or just not being able to afford to do cycle racing.
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Old 08-07-20, 09:27 AM
  #211  
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Originally Posted by AlgarveCycling View Post
Speed alone means nothing much ...
Less for a pro. There are lots of ways to make more money. Doing wheelies when dropped off the back helps. There are KOM jerseys, Sprinter jerseys, and taking it easy on one stage to assist your teammate another. Even pro TT stages are not given full gas by domestiques you are expected to help the next day.

But for for the Cat 1 - speed matters more. Few Cat 1 only races are stage races and nobody is paid to help the other. Some organized teams split the purse and will help setup their teammates.

My point about Strava was looking at the actual course that different groups race on. You can see the average speeds of the pack/s. Sometimes speeds are published.

Last edited by Doge; 08-07-20 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 08-07-20, 02:33 PM
  #212  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Opinions vary, and "pro" mean different things in each discipline.
If you define pro as a category and stamp on your license - those are not all that hard to get - esp. in MTB where it seems about 30% are pros and I few don't have another job. The license costs more and I don't think USAC minds the trade. As they are not really making a living from their riding they are not doing it as a profession, and hence the suggestion that it was the new Cat 1.

This thread got a bit derailed about WT pros - folks that really make a living and raise families.
For Road Racing in the USA you can race just about anything as a Cat 1, but a few require you are on a team that got into that race.
You can poke around on USA Cycling and find USA pro teams and get links to UCI teams.
If you determine doing something professionally as making enough money to live and raise families, there's probably only like 30% of the the US that are working "professionally" at all lol.
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Old 08-07-20, 08:28 PM
  #213  
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It doesnít take a pro to hold cycling records, plenty of amateur records. I would be curious what the avg age spread is across disciplines for outright world records.

-hour
-kilo
-4km IP
-10mi, 40k

Etc....

As an armchair nobody who doesnít know much....if the kids are fastest....whatís the spread on records?

All but the 10/40 the ages are mid 20ís to 30. The 10mi/40k? 36 years old. Like me!

Some pro triathletes peak middle age. Cycling is still mostly slowtwitch. And the golden age is still older than HS or maybe even college.
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Old 08-08-20, 04:39 AM
  #214  
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This is starting to sound like a rad dog debate.
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Old 08-09-20, 06:34 PM
  #215  
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I think this 20 year old who has been racing since 2017 has pretty much established everyone should go get a day job. https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/remco-evenepoel
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Old 08-10-20, 09:19 AM
  #216  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
It doesnít take a pro to hold cycling records, plenty of amateur records. I would be curious what the avg age spread is across disciplines for outright world records.

-hour
-kilo
-4km IP
-10mi, 40k

Etc....

As an armchair nobody who doesnít know much....if the kids are fastest....whatís the spread on records?

All but the 10/40 the ages are mid 20ís to 30. The 10mi/40k? 36 years old. Like me!

Some pro triathletes peak middle age. Cycling is still mostly slowtwitch. And the golden age is still older than HS or maybe even college.
They do not have any. The fastest under 23 male for the hour record is 3rd behind Wiggans which is quite good just not WR.

If the under 23 male racers were the fastest, they would dominate the UCI pro peloton and they do not ie the entire pro peloton would be under 23 and guys like Valverde would be long gone versus winning a world championship road race in his late 30s. To say it another way, in a world championship road race, there would be lead peloton of under 23 racers and then all the rest - not the case. Why is there not an under 23 racer or gaggle of racers licking at Saganís heels ready to overthrow him as the green jersey leader? Saganís genetics are off the charts amazing and we may never see another one similar to him for decades.
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