BigPoser

I recently had a head badge made in nickel because I had heard it's easier to curve than stainless around a head tube but have recently heard that I'll need to remove the nickle plating before brazing.

I'm very uneducated when it comes to the different types of metal and their ability to braze.

Do I need to remove anything or can I simply sand it down like a normal? Or do I need to have the badges made in stainless?

Thanks in advance.

Brandon

unterhausen

I didnt check into it too far, but the first thing I saw said it's never a good idea to braze to plating.

I am curious if I understand what you had made, can you link to the material? Is it nickel plated steel?

BigPoser

I don't have a link since it was done locally, but I believe it to be nickel plated steel.

unterhausen

My only experience with nickel plating was an electroless nickel plated sensor target I had to machine. That stuff is really soft. My impression is that it wouldn't be happy to be brazed. It would work great if you were bolting the head badge on. We had the target plated so it wouldn't corrode.

CliffordK

@gugie had successfully brazed a steer tube into a chromed fork crown using A LOT OF FLUX. I don't know if the crown was triple plated or not.

You may be able to do the same with silver solder and Nickel, being very careful with the temperature.

HOWEVER, you have a non-structural part. There are some excellent adhesives that you can use. Talk to a good vintage auto detail shop. I don't remember the brand, but the window felt adhesive I got a while ago was really good.

And, then you have the advantage of being able to paint your frame first, then simply glue the badge on. No need for careful masking.

Andrew R Stewart 

So confusion as to why it would be assumed that a nickel plated steel would be much easier to bend then an unplated steel of similar thickness?

I think one concern about brazing onto a plated frame is the gas that might "boil off" if the acid etching solutions were not completely removed after the plating was done. Have to admit I know little about plating's tensile strength WRT it's attachment to the surface (steel). Andy

gugie 

To be clear, I reamed the fork crown, then silver brazed the steerer, no chrome was brazed to. The LOT OF FLUX was dried onto the chromed fork crown to protect the chrome.

I silver brazed some brass 531 badges onto a frame once. Showed them off to Jamie Swann at French Fender Day a couple of years ago. He asked why I didn't just epoxy them on. I waited a count or two, then gave myself a good dope slap in the forehead.

Brazing something like a badge to a frame is damn hard, molten silver is pretty damn slippery.

Just epoxy it on after painting.

unterhausen

Seems like Trek used a kind of mastic to glue their head badges on. That was after my time, we were using screws when I was there.

guy153

Yes my ill-fated circa 2008 Trek 520 had some kind of schmoo holding the headbadge on. Its Chinese replacement didn't even get a headbadge, just a painted-logo of some sort. I guess if you can save a few more cents a frame it all adds up to bigger yachts for the execs.

Andrew R Stewart 

Sure, but... I guess how and why one attaches a badge is a choice that reflects their approach to building in general. My take has been to produce a frame that could out last me. My marking my creation is one part of that. Having worked on hundreds of bikes that lack badging, branding or decals and the hours I've wondered about the bikes' lost identities just reinforced my view, I want my mark to not be trusted to a future hack refinisher. So I first silvered on my "S" made from electrical wire bent around the vise handle. After a couple dozen+ frames i decided that it was time for a more elegant mark. Now I have my "S" water jetted from SS plate. and still silver them on. Andy

gugie 

I've seen frames with the builder's mark in stainless brazed one letter at a time across the top tube where it doubles as a frame protector. Getting those letters lined up perfectly and brazed in must have been a lot of work!

unterhausen

I put a 'K' on my seat tube, it really stiffened it up and made it so I felt a lot better putting it in a stand when I needed to do that. But that seat tube died in a failed attempt to remove the seat post, so the replacement isn't getting that feature. I found it to be a pain to braze them on and also masking is a pain, so I'm probably not doing that again. Probably

I am conflicted about putting it on a top or down tube. Looks nice, but why anneal that much of the tube?

BigPoser

Andy, what thickness SS do you use for your badges?

My thought on curving was that I know SS to be a bit more brittle and harder to curve than a mild steel. At least that's been my experience with it. I could easily get some badges cut in SS as I had this one done with a water jet.

I'll get a picture up today.

unterhausen

I think I got 316 stainless .03" thick. Can cut it with scissors. Bends fine.

Andrew R Stewart 

I've not yet had line up brazed letters to form a word/name but done so with decals and that was hard enough. Although if the letters were of a script/flowing font others might not notice what the builder might. That the lining up wasn't perfect.

It's hard enough to get my "S" centered and straight. Andy

Andrew R Stewart 

I aim for about 1mm thick for the finished version. The two different batches of my "S" have been slightly differing thicknesses around .040 and I think .045. But with after brazing finishing and how well the bending about the HT went (actually bent in a female form with a male form pressing down) the vertical portions of the "S" don't really get bent/curve. So these will be filed a bit to mimic the rest of the curved face. I find that how well one maintains the flat face of the badge makes the thickness look one way or the other. Keeping the edges of similar thickness and not "rounding off" the face towards the edges makes the badge look more crisp. My first SS "S" was hand cut fron .049+ tube (took forever) and ended up with a more bulbus look after a lot of edge filing/sanding. Not a bad look for the fillet frame it found but not what a lugged frame wanted.

As to the bendability of SS plate. The .040+ thickness I've used is no problem. There are no creases or corners, in the bending, so no real chance to crack or have less the square corners. But if a badge were to have a relief or carved surface it would likely be thicker and the thick/thin differences might well provide an uneven bending. For this reason if major surface texture is wanted consider carving from a tube of casting. Andy

BigPoser

So here's a picture of my head badge in question. You can see it has a somewhat glossy finish to it on this side. It isn't this way on the other side however. It's 0.064 thick and I was going to attempt to curve it around a 36mm head tube. Although I think I'd rather have it be somewhere closer to 0.040.

Think curving will be doable?

unterhausen

That seems a bit stout, but there is no harm in trying. I think for something that thick I might use something to form it into shape

That looks nice.

BigPoser

Thanks! Yeah that's about what I was thinking as well. I think I have another spot on a frame that I can put it and curve it. I'll have to have some thinner pieces made....in stainless this time.

CliffordK

Any pieces of heavy plumbing pipe, or solid steel you could use if it takes more force to bend than you can get with your hands?

unterhausen

So you mechanically removed the old steerer? I botched a steerer re-thread and have decided to replace it. I was thinking about sweating it out, but I'm not positive that's a good approach

Andrew R Stewart 

0.064" thick is pretty thick for such a small width of surface, to bend and have the bends "take" to the edges. Next time I would consider carving a pre bent piece, a tube section perhaps. Andy

gugie 

Oof, I did that once, cross-threaded, eh?

First time I did this was on a "found" Paramount by @RiddleOfSteel. I used a 7/8" step drill to come at it from both sides, leaving ~1/16" of material, then used a large rat tail file to get down to where I could see the brass colored filler, then carefully filed and sanded it down the fork crown to fit up a new steerer. It wasn't perfectly round from that operation, but quite close enough to silver braze in a new steerer. I've since performed this operation on two more forks successfully. It's a lot of elbow grease. One fork had a particularly hard steerer, so I used a hacksaw to score it into sections so I can heat small areas at a time to remove them.. No way you can sweat out a steerer intact without worrying about the effect on the blade/fork connection.

I've since found a 25mm step drill, which would leave a lot less material to file out at the end.

unterhausen

Okay, thanks. The thread is mostly okay, but it tore in one place and that is exactly where the top cup sits. Probably okay, but I would rather fix it. The original sin was not checking the steerer length before I put it in. Threadless steerers have spoiled me.

Doug Fattic 

Two pieces of 4130 tubing with a wall thickness of 0.120" can be used to bend/curve cut out flat plate to fit around a frame tube. The inside tube would have an OD the size of the head or seat tube. Because of spring back it is probably better for it to be 1/8" smaller. The outside tube would have an OD 1/4" larger. This makes its ID about the same as the OD of the inner tube. The outside tube is cut in half lengthwise so it will fit against the inside tube. The design is placed between the 2 tubes and squeezed together in a vise.

I've shown this picture in several posts but i will do it here again. My frame building class student cut his Michigan shaped design out of flat stainless steel plate and squeezed it between 2 tubes as described above before brazing it onto his seat tube. As a substitute, 0.058" could be used. There might be some risk of ovalizing the tubes (which might not matter). I had .120" tubing so there wasn't a reason to use 0.058".