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Interesting track frames

Old 03-26-18, 08:51 PM
  #26  
brawlo
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Originally Posted by carleton
Part of me wants to start a bike company...but I don't want to be in the bike company business. I had really high hopes for Hoy to make a top-notch sprint frame being that's his thing and he's got a engineer's type of mind and he's been exposed to a lot on Team GB. Maybe someone should scoop him up and make him a Product Owner and direct what features go into the next world class frames.
I toyed with the idea when a mutual acquaintance made me an offer. The sums can add up. But it's a cutthroat game. 99% of buyers don't understand if your frame looks like frame 'X' but you charge twice as much because you had different carbon laid up differently to make it twice as stiff.

Look seem to have made a bold move that paid off with their purchase and kill off of the Axman. That frame occupied a definite middle ground that espoused quality that far outweighed its price tag. That frame has been a very sad loss to the track cycling world
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Old 03-27-18, 06:18 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by brawlo
I toyed with the idea when a mutual acquaintance made me an offer. The sums can add up. But it's a cutthroat game. 99% of buyers don't understand if your frame looks like frame 'X' but you charge twice as much because you had different carbon laid up differently to make it twice as stiff.

Look seem to have made a bold move that paid off with their purchase and kill off of the Axman. That frame occupied a definite middle ground that espoused quality that far outweighed its price tag. That frame has been a very sad loss to the track cycling world
I talked with a guy about it once too. He had been chatting with a founder of another bike brand about starting a bike company. Anyway, based on the discussion, it became pretty clear that the sums don't really add up. The design and manufacture costs do, but it's the marketing costs that will kill you. And if you don't spend that money to advertise and promote your bike and brand, it's not going to sell.
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Old 03-27-18, 10:50 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by carleton
SB-2 (Carbon. No seat stay + no top tube = flexy):


.

That looks like Mariano Friedicks bike -- was hanging in the basement at COS forever ---

by the looks of the tires, they just dragged it up top and hosed it off to get the picture ---- Its been a long time since ive been there, but I recall it being a mini museum of track cycling oddities
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Old 03-27-18, 11:53 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by DMC707
That looks like Mariano Friedicks bike -- was hanging in the basement at COS forever ---

by the looks of the tires, they just dragged it up top and hosed it off to get the picture ---- Its been a long time since ive been there, but I recall it being a mini museum of track cycling oddities
Here's the article the photo came from: https://cyclingtips.com/2016/08/the-...e-engineering/

The acknowledgements:

CyclingTips would like to thank the kind folks at the Boulder Valley Velodrome for the use of their facility, Bobby Noyes at RockyMounts for loaning us this piece of history, and Forrest Yelverton and Jeff Soucek for taking this walk through history with us.
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Old 03-27-18, 03:09 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by carleton
I've read a lot on the internet about bike frames, but I've yet to come across any solid answer as to why round seatposts are being ditched for aero ones.
I recall reading somewhere (but it was literally years ago and the science may have changed....or not) that the teardrop seatpost does more of a cleanup job than a straight out aero job. So the teardrop helps to clean up the turbid air, thus reducing the drag. You saw this concept taken one step further with the Aussies at Rio with the 'ribbed' seatpost.

Originally Posted by topflightpro
I talked with a guy about it once too. He had been chatting with a founder of another bike brand about starting a bike company. Anyway, based on the discussion, it became pretty clear that the sums don't really add up. The design and manufacture costs do, but it's the marketing costs that will kill you. And if you don't spend that money to advertise and promote your bike and brand, it's not going to sell.
Yeah, I was definitely looking at it as a hobby style thing rather than a full on business opportunity. For love not money. The opportunity I was presented with would have only required sales of about 10 bikes to cover setup costs, and then everything from there on was the cream. I just didn't have the money at the time, and now I really don't have the time either. But it would have been an interesting thing to do
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Old 03-27-18, 03:56 PM
  #31  
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I think a lot can be learned from Serenity Bike's recent endeavor into the market. It seemed simple enough. The prices quoted by the manufacturer were right. They only needed to sell X frames to break even, etc... and were plagued by annoying issues.

On the other extreme, I think Tiemeyers are well regarded for what they appeared to be bespoke aero frames that were really good. I don't think they get the real credit they deserve which is that they were on par with the top frames in the game (BT Stealth & Edge, Felt TK1, LOOK 496, etc... in terms of rigidity, strength, aerodynamics (Mr. Tiemeyer was an aeronautical engineer by training).

The bonus points that come with a Tiemeyer:
- You could fly out and meet with him and have a custom fitting.
- He set geometry based on your desired events (mass start, sprints, time trials in aero bars)
- He chose tubing based on the rider's weight and expected power output. Two riders of the same body dimensions may have the same geometry but the frame for the 225lb guy would use thicker tubing than the frame for the 165lb guy. But the bikes would look identical from the outside.
- He listened. When Scattos came out we talked about how that might affect geometry and he made tweaks to my frame to account for them.
- Custom paint and lettering.
- The teardrop seat mast would come up very high then have a 27.2mm opening for slight tweaking of the saddle height and the rider could use whatever seapost they wanted.
- Could use King headsets.
- Titanium track ends also designed by Tiemeyer. They never slipped. I never needed a chain tensioner.
- You could get a bike from Tiemeyer faster than you could from LOOK, Felt, or (maybe) BT.

Having owned a TK1, TK FRD, 496, DF3, and 2 Tiemeyers I can undoubtedly say that the Tiemeyers were on par with all of them and better than each in one way or another. It had a better seatpost system than the Felts, better stiffness than the DF3, better stem and seatpost options than the 496 and Felts, better fork options than all but the DF3, it was lighter than the TK1 with the older bayonet fork, and it weighed the same as all of the above give or take a few ounces.

...and it cost $1,700.

I really think that the "carbon is better" blinded a lot of people to what Mr. Tiemeyer was offering.

These are all more alike than different and I think the custom features above push Tiemeyers over the top. If I told a newbie that all of these are carbon and one is $1700 for custom geo and the others are $3,000 - $10,000 for off-the-rack geo...which would win?

Does aluminum detract at all? (no).






Last edited by carleton; 03-27-18 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 03-27-18, 04:39 PM
  #32  
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I too am an alloy convert. Everything you have pointed out above, I got from my experience with Duratec (aside from the round seatpost). They have a great track pedigree and were very conversive via my fitter. There was quite a bit of back and forth before the design was finalised.

But then I find via that frame geometry thread that the 61cm BT Ultra suits my sizing requirements.......
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Old 03-27-18, 05:08 PM
  #33  
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I mean, maybe that's the way to go?

Custom aluminum frames that are geared towards top athletes (Elites, Elite-fast Masters & Juniors). The selling points can be all of the above.

The key would be to provide reassurance that aluminum frames are just as good using science, Morty.



Maybe provide head-to-head tests using the new aluminum frames against LOOKs, BTs, Felts, etc... whatever you can get your hands on. Measure stiffness, drag, etc...Hell, you could even do that before starting the company to simply validate your ideas. Ask friends, teammates, etc... to loan you the top frames for testing. It would cost maybe $1000 in wind tunnel time. One set of wheels, one set of bars, one rider. Do deflection (stiffness) tests in a lab.

You can work with one person to design the bike then contract the manufacturing out to those who weld aluminum in your country. I knew a guy in Portland that did such work. He welded frames for electric bikes for some big company.

I know there was a guy here on BF that was looking to start a bike company that was focused on elites using aluminum bikes. He was in the prototype stage. Not sure what happened.

Last edited by carleton; 03-27-18 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 03-27-18, 07:48 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by carleton
......................................
I know there was a guy here on BF that was looking to start a bike company that was focused on elites using aluminum bikes. He was in the prototype stage. Not sure what happened.
I remember a contributor who posted about building several frames to determine frame characteristics - he and another rider were riding these frames last year. When I see him I will ask him to update his posts.
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Old 03-28-18, 05:57 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by carleton

Maybe provide head-to-head tests using the new aluminum frames against LOOKs, BTs, Felts, etc... whatever you can get your hands on. Measure stiffness, drag, etc...Hell, you could even do that before starting the company to simply validate your ideas. Ask friends, teammates, etc... to loan you the top frames for testing. It would cost maybe $1000 in wind tunnel time. One set of wheels, one set of bars, one rider. Do deflection (stiffness) tests in a lab.
A fellow over on Slowtwitch crowd sourced a similar thing for tri bikes, testing an old(er) Felt B12 vs. the top end new bikes (Cervelo P5x, Diamondback Andean, etc) and it was a pretty big success. Unfortunately, it'd be hard to get the same support for track bikes.
*Colby Pearce did something similar in the 90's I believe, but to my knowledge that was all kept private. (I think he tested other track bikes vs. his Lotus)

A2 costs $550/hr. Each run (so long as you were only testing 0°, it's longer for sweeps) is ~2 minutes. Changing bikes takes ~5 minutes. You need to go back and re-test at least once (abcbca or some combination) to make sure you're a "good rider" (you don't move around and fudge the results) and you also probably want at least a run or two that is extended to make sure your form isn't breaking down, and also some runs between 0-7.5° sweeps for track. Having been and done 2hr sessions a few times, the rider also probably needs a break at some point for anything longer than that, as it's tough to concentrate for all those runs.

You need a team of smart guys to make sure everything is as close as possible between frames to eliminate possibility of fudged data. $1k would get you in the door

It'd be fun though!

Last edited by Morelock; 03-28-18 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 03-28-18, 09:12 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by carleton
I know there was a guy here on BF that was looking to start a bike company that was focused on elites using aluminum bikes. He was in the prototype stage. Not sure what happened.
Yep, I was interested in his progress and he was working with Colby Pearce which is awesome. I asked questions but it sounded like he was set in his ideas for the frame. When prodded by carleton asking why not make the best frame possible... no more updates. User's name here is Koogar

Here's the post with pictures of frames made: https://www.bikeforums.net/19212311-post596.html

Checking Colby's site he has the bike listed as what he rode in 2017 and says to wait for the website...
Appleman Custom Road Bike - Pearce Coaching and Fitting

The website: Fifty Point One Racing
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Old 03-28-18, 11:50 AM
  #37  
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A high end aluminum track frame would be very difficult product to produce these days. The market is tiny and like you said Carleton you'd have to convince people it's just as good as the carbon competition.

For an established company a carbon frame is easier since they can utilize the factories and processes they already have for their carbon road and TT bikes. There is a well regarded alloy track frame that was discontinued because the alloy road and TT frames it shared production materials with were discontinued due to the changing market. The slimmer margins on high end alloy frames and MOQ for materials ended it. Sales on the model were so slow it still took several years to sell through inventory.

As for the round vs. aero post debate one thing that you can do with aero posts is retain stiffness in the right direction while minimizing frontal area within the UCI rules. I don't have any numbers but I do know that two different aero post profiles can have measurable differences in the wind tunnel with a rider onboard never mind vs. a round post.

I think the way to do it is with a removable mast. The aero post rests on a solid stop inside the frame and is cut to size. saddle rail clamp using a two bolt front and back type arrangement.

Some of those round to aero style seat posts are really faux-aero and likely no better than a round post.
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Old 03-28-18, 12:28 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Morelock
A fellow over on Slowtwitch crowd sourced a similar thing for tri bikes, testing an old(er) Felt B12 vs. the top end new bikes (Cervelo P5x, Diamondback Andean, etc) and it was a pretty big success. Unfortunately, it'd be hard to get the same support for track bikes.
*Colby Pearce did something similar in the 90's I believe, but to my knowledge that was all kept private. (I think he tested other track bikes vs. his Lotus)

A2 costs $550/hr. Each run (so long as you were only testing 0°, it's longer for sweeps) is ~2 minutes. Changing bikes takes ~5 minutes. You need to go back and re-test at least once (abcbca or some combination) to make sure you're a "good rider" (you don't move around and fudge the results) and you also probably want at least a run or two that is extended to make sure your form isn't breaking down, and also some runs between 0-7.5° sweeps for track. Having been and done 2hr sessions a few times, the rider also probably needs a break at some point for anything longer than that, as it's tough to concentrate for all those runs.

You need a team of smart guys to make sure everything is as close as possible between frames to eliminate possibility of fudged data. $1k would get you in the door

It'd be fun though!
That's great feedback.

So, if one were to properly test, say, 4 frames (1 AL + 3 Carbon) how much time would you book? 4 hours?

Originally Posted by jfiveeight
Yep, I was interested in his progress and he was working with Colby Pearce which is awesome. I asked questions but it sounded like he was set in his ideas for the frame. When prodded by carleton asking why not make the best frame possible... no more updates. User's name here is Koogar

Here's the post with pictures of frames made: https://www.bikeforums.net/19212311-post596.html

Checking Colby's site he has the bike listed as what he rode in 2017 and says to wait for the website...
Appleman Custom Road Bike - Pearce Coaching and Fitting

The website: Fifty Point One Racing
Yup!

I wonder what happened.


Originally Posted by rustymongrel
A high end aluminum track frame would be very difficult product to produce these days. The market is tiny and like you said Carleton you'd have to convince people it's just as good as the carbon competition.

For an established company a carbon frame is easier since they can utilize the factories and processes they already have for their carbon road and TT bikes. There is a well regarded alloy track frame that was discontinued because the alloy road and TT frames it shared production materials with were discontinued due to the changing market. The slimmer margins on high end alloy frames and MOQ for materials ended it. Sales on the model were so slow it still took several years to sell through inventory.
Would all of that apply even if someone were thinking about making small batches or custom?

Originally Posted by rustymongrel
As for the round vs. aero post debate one thing that you can do with aero posts is retain stiffness in the right direction while minimizing frontal area within the UCI rules. I don't have any numbers but I do know that two different aero post profiles can have measurable differences in the wind tunnel with a rider onboard never mind vs. a round post.

I think the way to do it is with a removable mast. The aero post rests on a solid stop inside the frame and is cut to size. saddle rail clamp using a two bolt front and back type arrangement.

Some of those round to aero style seat posts are really faux-aero and likely no better than a round post.
Are the measurable differences so big that they can't be ignored (50W)? Or are they measurable but very small (5W)?
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Old 03-28-18, 04:41 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by carleton
That's great feedback.

So, if one were to properly test, say, 4 frames (1 AL + 3 Carbon) how much time would you book? 4 hours?
I think 3-4 at least yeah. If you take care of absolutely everything but the tests (so the operator had to do nothing except swap the bikes out to eat up time) you could do a lot in 3 hours. The positive is for a track bike you really don't need to test the sweeps like you do for a road/tt/tri bike, but swapping the bikes themselves (or anything on them) is a bit of an ordeal that eats up your time. You need to go back to those bikes at least once to re-test and verify your results. I think you could get some good data in 3-4 hours... but you could spend forever in the tunnel and still not have all the answers.
It'd be nice to have runs without a rider on all the bikes as well, just for giggles. Some interesting difference come up as to what's fast when you compare bike only to bike+mannequin to bike+rider pedaling.

Here is the link to the Aero Shootout done last year. It's a good read and had some experts (Brian Stover and Heath Dotson) behind the scenes making sure everything was as close as possible.
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Old 03-28-18, 05:36 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by carleton
I know there was a guy here on BF that was looking to start a bike company that was focused on elites using aluminum bikes. He was in the prototype stage. Not sure what happened.
Originally Posted by 700wheel
I remember a contributor who posted about building several frames to determine frame characteristics - he and another rider were riding these frames last year. When I see him I will ask him to update his posts.
Originally Posted by jfiveeight
Yep, I was interested in his progress and he was working with Colby Pearce which is awesome. I asked questions but it sounded like he was set in his ideas for the frame. When prodded by carleton asking why not make the best frame possible... no more updates. User's name here is Koogar
@carleton kindly reached out to let me know of the intrigue about our frames - we're still around, received UCI approval recently and have a queue for the first batch of production frames. I've opted for a soft launch since the livery isn't finalized and I want to take things slowly to make sure the order and fulfillment process is smooth for our early customers.

@jfiveeight, I'm always happy to answer questions. No more updates because the SNR was going downhill and I could spend tons of time on internet debate, but I'd rather just build the frame. Colby and I agreed on what we thought was missing among the existing offerings, what we want, and what would be helpful to others we know (not just elites). That's what we've built and it looks like this:
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Old 03-28-18, 06:14 PM
  #41  
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Koogar, that's pretty slick! Are those brass inserts in the track ends, or is that a plating on steel similar to Grade 8 bolts?
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Old 03-28-18, 07:18 PM
  #42  
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Tight!
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Old 03-28-18, 07:20 PM
  #43  
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Damn. That looks awesome. What size is the frame above?

Is that hole in the chainstay for a SRM magnet?
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Old 03-28-18, 07:47 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by taras0000
Koogar, that's pretty slick! Are those brass inserts in the track ends, or is that a plating on steel similar to Grade 8 bolts?
Originally Posted by Baby Puke
Tight!
Thanks, Taras and BPuke.

Material is neither - we stuck with solid aluminum bronze for its wear characteristics. They are pretty overbuilt in every dimension, too. You could use a sock full of these things for self defense.

This pair of inserts looks a little worse for wear because they've been played with throughout the fabrication process. They're bright and shiny when freshly machined.
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Old 03-28-18, 07:59 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by carleton
Would all of that apply even if someone were thinking about making small batches or custom?



Are the measurable differences so big that they can't be ignored (50W)? Or are they measurable but very small (5W)?
In that case with the two aero posts it was small (<5w) but measurable. This was a full aerofoil vs. a slightly truncated aerofoil... I'll let you guess which was faster.

If you wanted to start from scratch and make something custom or small batch that's truly going to compete with existing top end bikes its going to be difficult. You'll need to evaluate the competition, design something and validate your design somehow (wind tunnel etc.). Then you'll need to pay for the tooling for your custom tubes and have dropouts, head tubes etc. machined to your spec. Since your quantities are low costs will be higher. You'll need to produce prototypes and have them tested to ISO/EN standards and certified by the UCI. In the end I think you would end up with a very expensive frame that would be really good but probably need to sell for $4000+ to justify all the costs that went into it.
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Old 03-28-18, 08:13 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by carleton
Damn. That looks awesome. What size is the frame above?

Is that hole in the chainstay for a SRM magnet?
Thanks, Carleton. Second question first: yes, that's exactly what it's for, but it's not just a hole in the CS. Colby wanted a nice little home for the SRM magnet, which ended up as a a solid rod welded into the stay, which is then drilled out. We can do a no-cost delete if a customer has no plans for SRM, in which case our fabricator looks skyward and says a small prayer of thanks in Italian. At least that's how I picture it, even though I'm pretty sure he doesn't speak Italian.

Colby and I happen to ride pretty much the same 41.5 reach by 48 stack, and that's what this frame is. I call it "the manager's special" because, even after developing what we think is a pretty comprehensive set of sizes that gives most people good options, we didn't fit. But going through his fitting experience, Colby couldn't find anyone else who rides these proportions, so we tacked it on as an additional size for UCI approval instead of building the geo chart around a couple of freaks.
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Old 03-28-18, 09:21 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Koogar
Thanks, Taras and BPuke.

Material is neither - we stuck with solid aluminum bronze for its wear characteristics. They are pretty overbuilt in every dimension, too. You could use a sock full of these things for self defense.

This pair of inserts looks a little worse for wear because they've been played with throughout the fabrication process. They're bright and shiny when freshly machined.
That's a VERY smart use of this material. Very "out of the box", creative, and innovative use of it. Should allow the track nuts to get a very good, deep bite on the dropout without falling apart over time.
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Old 03-28-18, 09:36 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by taras0000
That's a VERY smart use of this material. Very "out of the box", creative, and innovative use of it. Should allow the track nuts to get a very good, deep bite on the dropout without falling apart over time.
Full credit is owed to the (and is given to in the "still isn't up?" website) engineer who did most of the design work for the dropout. It does play well with the track nuts, but it's always better to use the set screws, especially for big efforts.
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Old 03-29-18, 12:56 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Koogar
Thanks, Carleton. Second question first: yes, that's exactly what it's for, but it's not just a hole in the CS. Colby wanted a nice little home for the SRM magnet, which ended up as a a solid rod welded into the stay, which is then drilled out. We can do a no-cost delete if a customer has no plans for SRM, in which case our fabricator looks skyward and says a small prayer of thanks in Italian. At least that's how I picture it, even though I'm pretty sure he doesn't speak Italian.

Colby and I happen to ride pretty much the same 41.5 reach by 48 stack, and that's what this frame is. I call it "the manager's special" because, even after developing what we think is a pretty comprehensive set of sizes that gives most people good options, we didn't fit. But going through his fitting experience, Colby couldn't find anyone else who rides these proportions, so we tacked it on as an additional size for UCI approval instead of building the geo chart around a couple of freaks.
I've always been curious about this, but does UCI approval require a geometry and size?

I ask this because it seems really crazy asking pros who could be riding bikes with custom geometries to suit them to have to ride stock frames. Surely there could be an approval process where it is almost in principle with the shapes and materials, and with the geometry subject to change?
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Old 03-29-18, 01:17 AM
  #50  
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The allowance for the SRM magnet and the track ends are definitely next-level stuff. And a round seatpost [wipes tear] , THANK YOU.

This is all very cool. Great job, Koogar.

Keep us posted.
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