Carlton Capella Lugs but what Frame??
03-19-21, 03:38 PM
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Carlton Capella Lugs but what Frame??
This bike has come up for sale and I’m trying to get more of an idea on the frame ID. I’ve identified the Carlton Capella lugs but with only these photos from the seller I’m at a loss for the frame.
03-19-21, 04:03 PM
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Serial number under bottom bracket?
My guess is that's a replacement fork.
My guess is that's a replacement fork.
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03-19-21, 04:11 PM
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03-19-21, 04:11 PM
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That rear dropout rules out Raleigh, which used Capella lugs on several models in ‘73. I’d guess a late 60s Carlton of some sort, but I don’t know much about their various models.
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03-19-21, 04:16 PM
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Concur on the replacement fork. Lack of chrome on the rear triangle and the lack of a brazed-on rear cable stop kinda rules out it being a Raleigh Super Course. Does anyone recognize those rear dropouts?
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03-19-21, 04:16 PM
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unlikely frame would have been fabricated with this stamped sheet welded crown
when replacement fork present one always should closely scrutinize down & top tubes for deformation sign
seat stay bridge appears it may have been collapsed by brake mount bolt
frame at this level may have been constructed with Tru-Wel tubing
headset Brampton with floating U-races, takes 1/8" ball
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unlikely frame would have been fabricated with this stamped sheet welded crown
when replacement fork present one always should closely scrutinize down & top tubes for deformation sign
seat stay bridge appears it may have been collapsed by brake mount bolt
frame at this level may have been constructed with Tru-Wel tubing
headset Brampton with floating U-races, takes 1/8" ball
-----
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03-19-21, 04:23 PM
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no headbadge mount holes it appears... or even filled holes.
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03-19-21, 04:27 PM
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Yep, thought it strange that there was no rivet holes from the head badge. This frame is waaaaay older than anything I own so feeling out of my depth. Thanks for all your comments.
03-19-21, 06:05 PM
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The 1977 Soma competition had a fork like that.
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03-19-21, 07:06 PM
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Dunno, lotta Super Courses have Capella lugs, and who knows what dropouts Nigel had laying around that day? But Carlton would be my guess as well.
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03-19-21, 07:07 PM
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...the Capella lug design came out in about '59 or '60, and showed up on a lot of Carlton frames up through about '65 ('66 ?)
Most of the higher end Carlton's that used a rear derailleur I've seen had hangers integral to the dropout.
But there were some of them from that time period ('59-'65). like the Catalina and the Corinthian, that did not.
So I'm guessing either a Catalina (which came with a derailleur setup), or maybe some IGH three speed that's been modified over the years.
Both off those had relatively long chainstays, like your frame. Here's a '65 Catalina for comparison.
So by then, not real similar. Chainstay attachment is wrapped, not that concave cap like yours. Different dropouts.
Almost every Carlton bike I've ever seen had chrome fork ends, so I'm at a loss to identify yours. Carlton Catalogs online seem rare.
...the Capella lug design came out in about '59 or '60, and showed up on a lot of Carlton frames up through about '65 ('66 ?)
Most of the higher end Carlton's that used a rear derailleur I've seen had hangers integral to the dropout.
But there were some of them from that time period ('59-'65). like the Catalina and the Corinthian, that did not.
So I'm guessing either a Catalina (which came with a derailleur setup), or maybe some IGH three speed that's been modified over the years.
Both off those had relatively long chainstays, like your frame. Here's a '65 Catalina for comparison.
So by then, not real similar. Chainstay attachment is wrapped, not that concave cap like yours. Different dropouts.
Almost every Carlton bike I've ever seen had chrome fork ends, so I'm at a loss to identify yours. Carlton Catalogs online seem rare.
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03-19-21, 09:42 PM
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The bike looks really tall for a late 50s or 60s Carlton Capella or Catalina. Didn’t they top out around 23 1/2” back then? This looks look like a 24 1/2” frame. What did they make in this size with Capella lugs? I could be mistaken but I thought that’s what the Longfellow model was for. I don’t think the Carlton Longfellow ever came with those lugs. The only thing I can think of are 73 Raleighs. I’ll say this, those stay caps look decisively Raleigh. I’ve never seen a Carlton that wasn’t a Raleigh with stay caps like that. Perhaps the bike is just a hacked up 73 Super Course? It’s missing the brake bridge, those dropouts are weird, and the headbadge Impression isn’t right for Carlton or Raleigh, but the area does look to me to be filed a bit. I certainly could be wrong.....maybe it’s something I’ve never even heard of before.
Last edited by Pcampeau; 03-19-21 at 10:09 PM.
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03-20-21, 07:13 AM
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Didn't the early Super Courses come from Carlton? I think I saw the S-C in Chicago shops probably around 1969.
Last edited by Road Fan; 03-20-21 at 07:17 AM.
03-20-21, 08:02 AM
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Those dropouts had me thinking... I have seen them lots of times before while working at a shop in the 1970’s
first guess... Bingo
my guess the bike has been repaired.
the Dropouts are from a Nishiki Olympic
or at least same supplier.
notice too that the seat stays are terminated at the dropout very differently than the chainstays.
usually they are handled in a similar manner.
a chance that instead of sloppy brazing, the seat stays at the seat lug have been reworked.
quite a bit of work for a unknown level of bike.
my father had a Carlton Catalina way back, this is not, only the primary lugs match.
they did reappear on Super Courses, competitions and a few internationals later
don’t Win at the match game either
first guess... Bingo
my guess the bike has been repaired.
the Dropouts are from a Nishiki Olympic
or at least same supplier.
notice too that the seat stays are terminated at the dropout very differently than the chainstays.
usually they are handled in a similar manner.
a chance that instead of sloppy brazing, the seat stays at the seat lug have been reworked.
quite a bit of work for a unknown level of bike.
my father had a Carlton Catalina way back, this is not, only the primary lugs match.
they did reappear on Super Courses, competitions and a few internationals later
don’t Win at the match game either
Last edited by repechage; 03-20-21 at 08:10 AM.
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03-20-21, 03:10 PM
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Those dropouts had me thinking... I have seen them lots of times before while working at a shop in the 1970’s
first guess... Bingo
my guess the bike has been repaired.
the Dropouts are from a Nishiki Olympic
or at least same supplier.
notice too that the seat stays are terminated at the dropout very differently than the chainstays.
usually they are handled in a similar manner.
a chance that instead of sloppy brazing, the seat stays at the seat lug have been reworked.
quite a bit of work for a unknown level of bike.
my father had a Carlton Catalina way back, this is not, only the primary lugs match.
they did reappear on Super Courses, competitions and a few internationals later
don’t Win at the match game either
first guess... Bingo
my guess the bike has been repaired.
the Dropouts are from a Nishiki Olympic
or at least same supplier.
notice too that the seat stays are terminated at the dropout very differently than the chainstays.
usually they are handled in a similar manner.
a chance that instead of sloppy brazing, the seat stays at the seat lug have been reworked.
quite a bit of work for a unknown level of bike.
my father had a Carlton Catalina way back, this is not, only the primary lugs match.
they did reappear on Super Courses, competitions and a few internationals later
don’t Win at the match game either
Wow. repechage you’ve out done yourself here! Great investigative work on these drop outs. It looks like the same brazing at the chainstay and then with the Seat lugs. Definitely different brazing on the seat stays.
I’ll still go and take a look regardless but thinking the possibility of finding a positive ID for the frame has diminished some what.
03-20-21, 04:15 PM
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I'm not sure I like the "repair" theory though, unlikely that someone going to the trouble and expense of a frame repair would use these cheap dropouts.
My money is on some UK frame shop (probably Carlton) ordered in some Japanese dropouts for this lower-to-mid-level frame. Maybe due to a temporary shortage of domestic stamped dropouts during the Bike Boom?
I have some raw Capella lugs, and if I could get them, then of course other people could too, so the builder doesn't need to be Carlton.
Mark B
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03-20-21, 04:24 PM
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When I first saw the OP's pics, I immediately thought the dropouts looked Japanese, but I didn't say anything because that seemed so unlikely. Of course name-brand forged dropouts from Japan, like Shimano and Suntour, have been used on all nationalities of frames. But a cheap stamped Japanese dropout like this, on an English-made frame? That would be a new one on me.
I'm not sure I like the "repair" theory though, unlikely that someone going to the trouble and expense of a frame repair would use these cheap dropouts.
My money is on some UK frame shop (probably Carlton) ordered in some Japanese dropouts for this lower-to-mid-level frame. Maybe due to a temporary shortage of domestic stamped dropouts during the Bike Boom?
I have some raw Capella lugs, and if I could get them, then of course other people could too, so the builder doesn't need to be Carlton.
Mark B
I'm not sure I like the "repair" theory though, unlikely that someone going to the trouble and expense of a frame repair would use these cheap dropouts.
My money is on some UK frame shop (probably Carlton) ordered in some Japanese dropouts for this lower-to-mid-level frame. Maybe due to a temporary shortage of domestic stamped dropouts during the Bike Boom?
I have some raw Capella lugs, and if I could get them, then of course other people could too, so the builder doesn't need to be Carlton.
Mark B
03-20-21, 05:35 PM
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When I first saw the OP's pics, I immediately thought the dropouts looked Japanese, but I didn't say anything because that seemed so unlikely. Of course name-brand forged dropouts from Japan, like Shimano and Suntour, have been used on all nationalities of frames. But a cheap stamped Japanese dropout like this, on an English-made frame? That would be a new one on me.
I'm not sure I like the "repair" theory though, unlikely that someone going to the trouble and expense of a frame repair would use these cheap dropouts.
My money is on some UK frame shop (probably Carlton) ordered in some Japanese dropouts for this lower-to-mid-level frame. Maybe due to a temporary shortage of domestic stamped dropouts during the Bike Boom?
I have some raw Capella lugs, and if I could get them, then of course other people could too, so the builder doesn't need to be Carlton.
Mark B
I'm not sure I like the "repair" theory though, unlikely that someone going to the trouble and expense of a frame repair would use these cheap dropouts.
My money is on some UK frame shop (probably Carlton) ordered in some Japanese dropouts for this lower-to-mid-level frame. Maybe due to a temporary shortage of domestic stamped dropouts during the Bike Boom?
I have some raw Capella lugs, and if I could get them, then of course other people could too, so the builder doesn't need to be Carlton.
Mark B
Back to the frame as shown- if a Carlton, very odd no witness of a headbadge. The seat stay tops are curious. No centerpull brake bridge. The chainstay stop is not what I associate with Carlton or Raleigh for that matter. Japanese parts on a British frame... Possible, of course, maybe even samples. (This is the first frame with Capella lugs that I have seen so built, not stating that they are not original, just they look really unique)
The LH side seat stay top brazing is a mess. Maybe a closeup of that may encourage or dispel a frame repair.
then there is the obverse, send the lugs to japan for a concept sample. (low probability, but Raleigh did later source bikes built in Japan, initially as Rampar, and those did not have a headbadge. The chainstay cable stop also looks like it is flooded with brass, maybe the dropout to chainstay joint too?
Last edited by repechage; 03-20-21 at 05:39 PM.
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03-20-21, 10:04 PM
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Um...not to throw too much cold water, but I'm not 100% sure those DOs are SunTour (Maeda), the "Carlton" look very close but the edges appear to be sharper than the radiused edges (and thicker-appearing material) of the SunTour/Nishiki, which may have been "stamped" but show signs of extra manufacturing steps. The "Carlton" DOs look plain stamped from flat stock...but we SURE could use some sharper close-ups
03-21-21, 01:21 AM
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Correct- here is an image from a Nishiki Rally, the bottom of the line about 1975-76
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03-21-21, 06:39 AM
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For what it's worth for comparison, here are pix of my 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse. Mine has vertically oriented rivet holes for a head badge, which is missing, but I did obtain a couple of head badge decals that have about the same shape as the paint spot on the OP's head tube.
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
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03-21-21, 11:38 AM
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For what it's worth for comparison, here are pix of my 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse. Mine has vertically oriented rivet holes for a head badge, which is missing, but I did obtain a couple of head badge decals that have about the same shape as the paint spot on the OP's head tube.
03-21-21, 01:48 PM
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MarkinOz -
in case you make a visit to see the bicycle one simple check you could make which might be confirmatory of a Carlton origin would be to measure the bottom bracket shell width
if ~66.5mm rather than the 68mm one might expect that would be suggestive of a Carlton product
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MarkinOz -
in case you make a visit to see the bicycle one simple check you could make which might be confirmatory of a Carlton origin would be to measure the bottom bracket shell width
if ~66.5mm rather than the 68mm one might expect that would be suggestive of a Carlton product
-----
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03-21-21, 05:47 PM
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Able to take a couple of photos but this was confirmed as a backyard build by a relative of the seller. No visible serial numbers on BB or lugs, mixture of Suntour VX, Shimano Arabesque and Sugino Crankset.
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