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Fork upgrade/rebuild/compatibility??

Old 01-27-21, 10:03 AM
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Fork upgrade/rebuild/compatibility??

I posted this at mtbr but thought I'd ask here as well -

I am SLOWLY building up a nice hardtail. I am loooking for a fork. I have lots of time to shop around, so I was wondering if I could get a lot of bang for my buck getting a used, lower-end fork with maybe the incorrect travel and upgrading it to a nicer air spring with the correct travel. Here are my questions:

1. Is this even wise?
2. Is there a compatibility chart out there somewhere showing which air springs are compatible with which chassis?
3. Is replacing the air spring and other internals in a cheaper chassis substantially equivalent to a more expensive fork?
4. Are there limits to the amount of travel which can be altered by doing so?

An example: A Fox Rhythm 34 fork is available in my area with 120mm travel and the rest of the matching specs below, could I drop in a newer Float 130 or 140mm air spring, take off the decals and have a pretty sweet fork for under $300? This is just an example. I am not married to Manitou/Rockshox/Fox/Cane Creek/DVO. Probably best to stick to Rockshox and Fox, I am guessing, for parts-availability

Looking for a fork with the following specs
130-140 travel, maybe 150
44 offset
110 boost/thru axle
Tapered steerer

Background on me, I am fairly mechanical (used to work on a NASCAR pit crew) and have built several bikes, but this is my first experience with suspension since 2001
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Old 01-27-21, 11:08 AM
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Make a start. Buy the fork. See will it work.
There may be too many variables for anyone too know will it work.
What's expensive in an expensive fork?
The internals, the coatings, the r/d, the brand name etc.
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Old 01-27-21, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by blamester
Make a start. Buy the fork. See will it work.
There may be too many variables for anyone too know will it work.
What's expensive in an expensive fork?
The internals, the coatings, the r/d, the brand name etc.
The idea is to have the knowledge before shelling out the cash... just looking for a base of knowledge to start from, friend.
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Old 01-27-21, 01:55 PM
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Maybe better to buy a damaged cheap fork and
​​​and rebuild it or use it to experiment or both.
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Old 01-27-21, 04:49 PM
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For what your asking about, none of the brands you have mentioned come anywhere near what would normally considered as low end, even the cheapest Rock Shox are expensive vs true low end, Fox are a premium brand, Cane Creek/DVO above that.

Of all the major brands, Fox is probably the best for spares availability.

Would download the parts breakdown PDF's (where available for the fork you are looking to get), and see if what your proposing is possible via same part numbers.

For the specifics
1, probably not, forks are very specifically designed now, the days where you can mix and match are long gone.
2. If not on a manufactuers website, probably not, at least for public consumption
3, Research the parts needed, you will probably find it a lot cheaper to just buy the correct fork in the first place
4, Research the manufacuers specs for the specific fork.

For any 2nd hand fork, would make sure that the stanchions are not damaged/steerer tube is not cut too short, as these are all bonded, the CSU is a big/expensive part to replace if needed
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Old 01-27-21, 07:03 PM
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What bike do you have? What is the manufacturers recommended fork travel (or max travel you can use?) All the brands you listed would be fine get a good fork and done. No need to buy a cheap used fork just get what will work on the bike and enjoy. Are there specific forks you have interest in because assuming the fit the bike and what you are looking for we can narrow it down.
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Old 01-28-21, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
What bike do you have? What is the manufacturers recommended fork travel (or max travel you can use?) All the brands you listed would be fine get a good fork and done. No need to buy a cheap used fork just get what will work on the bike and enjoy. Are there specific forks you have interest in because assuming the fit the bike and what you are looking for we can narrow it down.
The specs I list are what the complete version of the Kona Honzo ESD come with.

I think I want to stick to the offset number; I don't want to "add slack" to an already very slack frame.

As far as travel goes, just wondering if I find a good deal on, say, a used Lyric or 36 Performance with more or less travel than I need, if I can change that by changing the air springs.

I did a little research and it doesn't look like I can take, say, a Rhythm series Fox fork, and change it to a Factory fork by changing out the internals. It just doesn't seem to work that way but please correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 01-28-21, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jimc101
For what your asking about, none of the brands you have mentioned come anywhere near what would normally considered as low end, even the cheapest Rock Shox are expensive vs true low end, Fox are a premium brand, Cane Creek/DVO above that.

Of all the major brands, Fox is probably the best for spares availability.

Would download the parts breakdown PDF's (where available for the fork you are looking to get), and see if what your proposing is possible via same part numbers.

For the specifics
1, probably not, forks are very specifically designed now, the days where you can mix and match are long gone.
2. If not on a manufactuers website, probably not, at least for public consumption
3, Research the parts needed, you will probably find it a lot cheaper to just buy the correct fork in the first place
4, Research the manufacuers specs for the specific fork.

For any 2nd hand fork, would make sure that the stanchions are not damaged/steerer tube is not cut too short, as these are all bonded, the CSU is a big/expensive part to replace if needed
Thanks! I was researching to see if you could take like a Recon or Rhythm and upgrade to a much better fork with a little work but that doesn't seem to be the case. And 10-4 on the steerer tube, I had to get a whole new fork on a CX bike I built because someone cut it down too short... and poorly....
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Old 01-28-21, 09:07 AM
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Some forks can have reduced or increased travel. The fox fork that came with my Salsa mtb can have its travel increased by 20mm by taking out some parts. I am not sure I would reduce travel but if the same fork was on a bike specced with 20mm more travel I imagine you could reduce that if you wanted.
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Old 01-28-21, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by davei1980
The specs I list are what the complete version of the Kona Honzo ESD come with.

I think I want to stick to the offset number; I don't want to "add slack" to an already very slack frame.

As far as travel goes, just wondering if I find a good deal on, say, a used Lyric or 36 Performance with more or less travel than I need, if I can change that by changing the air springs.

I did a little research and it doesn't look like I can take, say, a Rhythm series Fox fork, and change it to a Factory fork by changing out the internals. It just doesn't seem to work that way but please correct me if I am wrong.
I like it, a steel HT sounds like fun.

Unfortunately they don't list max fork for the frame but it looks like they do use a 150mm which is a pretty big fork for a HT.

Get the factory fork if you really want the factory fork. Trying to change out parts here and there is just not a sensible idea. Again you won't save money double buying parts. If you do have that specific bike and parts selection I wouldn't feel a huge need to upgrade the fork the Bomber Z1 is a good solid fork and I believe Marzocchi is now owned by the same folks who own Fox. What are you looking for specifically in the fork that say the Bomber Z1 couldn't give you?
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Old 01-28-21, 08:36 PM
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Maybe I'm uncool, but what business does a hardtail have with a 150mm travel fork? I should think anything that needs 150mm of travel would have rear suspension as well.

Your air pressure should be set such that you bottom out once per ride. That is a spring rate question, not a suspension travel question. A hardtail isn't/shouldn't be doing Downhill or mega-jumps or trials in rock gardens. A hardtail is for trail/singletrack/cross-country. Setting a 150mm travel fork so that it has so much cush that it bottoms out onces per ride on cross-country would have silly sag & über squish. In addition to converting your bike to ride like a boat, it'd have all the feedback & response of riding a sponge.

I really think you'd be better served by something similar to factory specs & run the air pressure a bit on the higher side if you find yourself bottoming out.

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Old 01-28-21, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
I like it, a steel HT sounds like fun.

Unfortunately they don't list max fork for the frame but it looks like they do use a 150mm which is a pretty big fork for a HT.

Get the factory fork if you really want the factory fork. Trying to change out parts here and there is just not a sensible idea. Again you won't save money double buying parts. If you do have that specific bike and parts selection I wouldn't feel a huge need to upgrade the fork the Bomber Z1 is a good solid fork and I believe Marzocchi is now owned by the same folks who own Fox. What are you looking for specifically in the fork that say the Bomber Z1 couldn't give you?
all good points, the Z1 would be fine but I am
building from scratch, not buying complete.

Just looking to see if I could also build out a fork and save a few bucks and learn something along the way. Looks like you can, to an extent,
like the debonair upgrade to solo Yari would be good and doable! But sounds like you can’t make a lyrik from a sektor.
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Old 01-28-21, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by base2
Maybe I'm uncool, but what business does a hardtail have with a 150mm travel fork? I should think anything that needs 150mm of travel would have rear suspension as well.

Your air pressure should be set such that you bottom out once per ride. That is a spring rate question, not a suspension travel question. A hardtail isn't/shouldn't be doing Downhill or mega-jumps or trials in rock gardens. A hardtail is for trail/singletrack/cross-country. Setting a 150mm travel fork so that it has so much cush that it bottoms out onces per ride would have silly sag & über squish. In addition to converting your bike to ride like a boat, it'd have all the feedback & response of riding a sponge.

I really think you'd be better served by something similar to factory specs & run the air pressure a bit on the higher side if you find yourself bottoming out.
150mm travel IS the factory spec on this bike. If anything I’d want to bring it down to 130-140, if possible. Learning lots!

i wasn’t sure how to do this or if you can go up in travel or only down (in the event I found a 120 fork)

my ideal fork now I think is 44 offset, 130-140mm travel and 34-36 stanchions. I think I would be nonplussed with 32mm stanchion tubes.

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Old 01-28-21, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by davei1980
150mm travel IS the factory spec on this bike. If anything I’d want to bring it down to 130-140, if possible. Learning lots!
Alright, no worries then! That it's designed around 150mm makes all the difference.

I was thinking it was designed around 100mm or 120mm, or similar.

I'm curious to see how the project develops.
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Old 01-28-21, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by base2
Alright, no worries then! That it's designed around 150mm makes all the difference.

I was thinking it was designed around 100mm or 120mm, or similar.

I'm curious to see how the project develops.
me too! Check out the specs on the Honzo ESD. I have a set of hans dampf 2.6 tires on 30mm id rims and an 11speed XT drivetrain and a 150mm dropper. It will be very similar to stock apart from that. I did see a review where a guy put a 130mm Cane Creek Helm on it and liked it better. I know nothing so anything between 130 and 150 will work. Oh, also will be using guide or code brakes so I can use the same bleed kit as the brakes on my rigid bike

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Old 01-29-21, 02:01 AM
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To be honest, I wouldn't buy a fork with the plans of replacing the spring unless you have an exceptionally good idea of what you're doing. I haven't done as much extensive work on Fox forks (damn you Covid, was scheduled for a class that got canceled) but to my remembrance they mostly change travel with new air shafts, and I think they may not have fully upgrade able spring assemblies. Fox is really helpful so they may tell you exactly what you need if you contact them.

Also, I think you're giving the air spring a little too much credit. Better ones are typically a bit more supple of the top, but a very significant difference between forks is damper design and complexity. Rhythm with Grip is honestly pretty good as it is, though.

Rockshox does pretty well with this--if you happened to find a deal on, say, an older Yari you can pretty much drop in the most recent air spring and damper for a Pike and have what is in most respects a 2021 Pike, but this isn't the best plan economically most of the time (unless you happen to already have the Yari).

NONE of this makes any sane economic sense if you have to pay anyone else to do pretty much any of the work. You'll need to invest at least a little in appropriate tooling to do any of this, although it's not necessarily that bad depending on the exact fork. Should probably get the right dust seal press, some good circlip pliars, maybe need a damper bleed kit, some Knipex flat pliars are useful for many of the thin, flat wrench surfaces if you don't have specific tools, etc.

Keep in mind suspension components, particularly on mountain bikes, are pretty significant wear components, so this is all insane also if there's like any stanchion or bushing wear.

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Old 01-29-21, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by cpach
To be honest, I wouldn't buy a fork with the plans of replacing the spring unless you have an exceptionally good idea of what you're doing. I haven't done as much extensive work on Fox forks (damn you Covid, was scheduled for a class that got canceled) but to my remembrance they mostly change travel with new air shafts, and I think they may not have fully upgrade able spring assemblies. Fox is really helpful so they may tell you exactly what you need if you contact them.

Also, I think you're giving the air spring a little too much credit. Better ones are typically a bit more supple of the top, but a very significant difference between forks is damper design and complexity. Rhythm with Grip is honestly pretty good as it is, though.

Rockshox does pretty well with this--if you happened to find a deal on, say, an older Yari you can pretty much drop in the most recent air spring and damper for a Pike and have what is in most respects a 2021 Pike, but this isn't the best plan economically most of the time (unless you happen to already have the Yari).

NONE of this makes any sane economic sense if you have to pay anyone else to do pretty much any of the work. You'll need to invest at least a little in appropriate tooling to do any of this, although it's not necessarily that bad depending on the exact fork. Should probably get the right dust seal press, some good circlip pliars, maybe need a damper bleed kit, some Knipex flat pliars are useful for many of the thin, flat wrench surfaces if you don't have specific tools, etc.

Keep in mind suspension components, particularly on mountain bikes, are pretty significant wear components, so this is all insane also if there's like any stanchion or bushing wear.
Thank you this is all good info! Like I said, I am pretty capable but don't know the most about suspension, this helps immensely. The Yari soloair -> Debonair upgrade looks pretty darn doable and economical but you're right, hacking a fork that's at the bottom of the foodchain isn't feasible.

That said, I just messaged a woman with a Fox 34 Performance which is advertised as "recently rebuilt" for $350!

Sounds like a deal if it's legit and had the correct offset
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Old 01-29-21, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by davei1980
Thank you this is all good info! Like I said, I am pretty capable but don't know the most about suspension, this helps immensely. The Yari soloair -> Debonair upgrade looks pretty darn doable and economical but you're right, hacking a fork that's at the bottom of the foodchain isn't feasible.

That said, I just messaged a woman with a Fox 34 Performance which is advertised as "recently rebuilt" for $350!

Sounds like a deal if it's legit and had the correct offset
That sounds pretty sweet. Pretty much all recent Fox forks are pretty good, including their mid-end stuff (they honestly don't make anything low end. I wouldn't even call any of the Marzocchi stuff low-end).
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Old 01-29-21, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by cpach
That sounds pretty sweet. Pretty much all recent Fox forks are pretty good, including their mid-end stuff (they honestly don't make anything low end. I wouldn't even call any of the Marzocchi stuff low-end).
Thank you! I hope you are right! Thanks again for the info and insight!
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Old 01-30-21, 11:33 AM
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A fork with more travel will raise the front of the bike, slackening the head and seat angles, raising the bottom bracket, and increasing trail. This will increase the flop-factor of the steering. My recommendation is to choose a fork that does not deviate too much from what the frame was designed to work with.
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Old 01-31-21, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by oldbobcat
A fork with more travel will raise the front of the bike, slackening the head and seat angles, raising the bottom bracket, and increasing trail. This will increase the flop-factor of the steering. My recommendation is to choose a fork that does not deviate too much from what the frame was designed to work with.
Yep.

Frame is designed to work with a 150mm fork. It has slack to spare so, if anything, I would want a fork 130-140mm travel.

Just researching how difficult or easy it is to modify a fork if I can find a deal on a 120mm fork or a 170mm fork or something.
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Old 02-01-21, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by davei1980
all good points, the Z1 would be fine but I am
building from scratch, not buying complete.

Just looking to see if I could also build out a fork and save a few bucks and learn something along the way. Looks like you can, to an extent,
like the debonair upgrade to solo Yari would be good and doable! But sounds like you can’t make a lyrik from a sektor.
That is the way to do it. I haven't had a complete bike in a long time and if I do it will be "customized" to the hilt.

I would find the right fork that you like and will work well for you and your needs as I have been saying. Unfortunately I don't know of any custom fork makers who do suspension stuff. Plenty of great stuff out there of course the Fox with the Kashima coating is always nice looking. Better I don't know but it looks snazzy. I am good with my older (but brand new) RS SID XX fork I got on a closeout through the distributor. Though it is a 100mm so probably not for you. I think something like a FOX 34 Performance Elite would give excellent performance for you and in a 140 length should bridge the gap nicely and give plenty of good performance.
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Old 02-03-21, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
That is the way to do it. I haven't had a complete bike in a long time and if I do it will be "customized" to the hilt.

I would find the right fork that you like and will work well for you and your needs as I have been saying. Unfortunately I don't know of any custom fork makers who do suspension stuff. Plenty of great stuff out there of course the Fox with the Kashima coating is always nice looking. Better I don't know but it looks snazzy. I am good with my older (but brand new) RS SID XX fork I got on a closeout through the distributor. Though it is a 100mm so probably not for you. I think something like a FOX 34 Performance Elite would give excellent performance for you and in a 140 length should bridge the gap nicely and give plenty of good performance.
Dude - A guy in Bellingham just posted a Cane Creek Helm for sale with adjustable travel 130-160. All the other specs work. This may be the holy grail of my build...
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Old 02-03-21, 01:58 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by davei1980
Dude - A guy in Bellingham just posted a Cane Creek Helm for sale with adjustable travel 130-160. All the other specs work. This may be the holy grail of my build...
There you go. Get what you want and you are set.
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Old 02-03-21, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
There you go. Get what you want and you are set.
I know! I was just gonna message the guy, then I found a coil fork for a super deal as well.

Now I need someone to talk me out of getting a coil fork! It's made by MRP in Colorado so it's an awesome fork, only weighs 157g more than the Lyrik Ultimate too....
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