Rene Herse catalogues collection with Daniel Rebour drawings scanned
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Rene Herse catalogues collection with Daniel Rebour drawings scanned
I have digitized all Réne Herse catalogues 1948 - 1979 and published the scans on Flickr with kind permission of Jan Heine.
Translations and informations are below the scans on Flickr, but probably not visible with a mobile device.
Short Flickr manual:
Wait until the page has completely loaded, may take a little time. Click on the arrow on the right side of your screen to browse through the scans.
Introduction, general infos, dating, order sheet, letters etc., 8 files:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/41420640@N07/49381147657/
First 1948 catalog,17 files:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/41420640@N07/49380464088/
Second, 1950s catalog from 1952, 22 files:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/41420640@N07/49380360548/
Third, 1960s catalog, from 1960, with extra sheets from 1962 and new cover from 1964, 31 files:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/41420640@N07/49379975683/
Forth, 1970s catalog, from 1971, 25 files:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/41420640@N07/49380523547/
Last, 1980s catalog, from 1979, 19 files:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/41420640@N07/49375248168/
Under the following link you will find a PDF-file with all texts aggregated, with direct weblinks to the corresponding scans.
https://www.rennrad-news.de/forum/thr...8/post-4633286
Translations and informations are below the scans on Flickr, but probably not visible with a mobile device.
Short Flickr manual:
Wait until the page has completely loaded, may take a little time. Click on the arrow on the right side of your screen to browse through the scans.
Introduction, general infos, dating, order sheet, letters etc., 8 files:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/41420640@N07/49381147657/
First 1948 catalog,17 files:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/41420640@N07/49380464088/
Second, 1950s catalog from 1952, 22 files:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/41420640@N07/49380360548/
Third, 1960s catalog, from 1960, with extra sheets from 1962 and new cover from 1964, 31 files:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/41420640@N07/49379975683/
Forth, 1970s catalog, from 1971, 25 files:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/41420640@N07/49380523547/
Last, 1980s catalog, from 1979, 19 files:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/41420640@N07/49375248168/
Under the following link you will find a PDF-file with all texts aggregated, with direct weblinks to the corresponding scans.
https://www.rennrad-news.de/forum/thr...8/post-4633286
Last edited by HeikoS69; 03-28-22 at 06:32 AM.
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I have digitized some Réne Herse catalogues and published the scans on Flickr with kind permission of Jan Heine. Translations below the scans.
As the forum rules prevent me from posting links, please replace „dot“ by a .
www (dot) flickr.com/photos/41420640@N07/49381147657/in/album-72157712640884851/
Under the second link you will find a PDF-file with Texts alternatively and additionally aggregated, with direct weblinks to the corresponding scans.
www (dot) rennrad-news.de/forum/threads/der-rebour-thread.147478/post-4633286
It would be nice, if the first member who answers on this thread would put the „real“ links in his post.
Thank you
As the forum rules prevent me from posting links, please replace „dot“ by a .
www (dot) flickr.com/photos/41420640@N07/49381147657/in/album-72157712640884851/
Under the second link you will find a PDF-file with Texts alternatively and additionally aggregated, with direct weblinks to the corresponding scans.
www (dot) rennrad-news.de/forum/threads/der-rebour-thread.147478/post-4633286
It would be nice, if the first member who answers on this thread would put the „real“ links in his post.
Thank you
https://www.rennrad-news.de/forum/thr...8/post-4633286 (PDF of text)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/414206...57709366920322 (Rebour Drawings)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/414206...57703148748612 (Herse advertisements)
Last edited by Kuromori; 01-22-20 at 10:01 PM.
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Excellent! Thank you. And Jan.
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This is stunning. The hours of browsing ahead will be joyful.
I can hardly image how much work went into this. The meticulous scanning alone would be cause for cheering, but the text transcription and translation, plus all the historical research that went into the PDF doc, makes this effort truly "next level".
Thanks a million!
Mark B in Seattle
I can hardly image how much work went into this. The meticulous scanning alone would be cause for cheering, but the text transcription and translation, plus all the historical research that went into the PDF doc, makes this effort truly "next level".
Thanks a million!
Mark B in Seattle
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The emphasis on rigidity, down to round track-like fork blades, and use of 700c on earlier randonneuses is interesting because it goes against several modern platitudes about randonneuses.
For anyone curious about the extra-stiff oversize tubing camping bikes, I'm not sure what Dupieux was ordering for France, but the standard Anglosphere tandem tubing in the 40's would have been a 28.6mm 0.81/0.56/0.81 top tube, a super heavy 31.8mm 1.2/0.81/1.2 downtube, standard 28.6mm 0.81/0.56 seat tube, heavy 1.2mm wall chainstays, oversize 17mm seatstays at 0.81mm wall thickness, and fork blades made from 1.4/0.91 wall thickness (extra thick) 22.2mm (undersize compared to modern) blanks.
I also note that Herse, in French, refers to the Cyclo shifter as double cable, despite some forum members' protestations that I am supposedly a xenophobe and 100% wrong for insisting that the rather boring and unpretentious double/twin/dual cable terminology seems to be the historically accurate and historically used term.
The 1971 Paris-Brest example, which seems to be a weight-weenie build by substituting plastic Blumel fenders and a plastic UNICA saddle for the traditional aluminum fenders and leather saddle, notably uses 5/10 531, which is apparently noteworthy, implying that many a Herse might have been built with heavier tubes. Rebour claims that 3/10(0.38mm, equivalent to 0.4mm customers demand on their custom modern planing rando bikes) tubing was available at the time, so the implication is either it was excessively difficult or expensive to obtain, and used only extremely rarely, or it was considered too light for real world use, and relegated to disposable event bikes and publicity stunts.
On the other hand, the 1971 Chanteloup says it uses Reynolds serie speciale, the term often used by Dupieux and Rebour for 3/10 tubing, but Herse had been building race winning and record setting tandems for decades at that point. The 1960 versions mentions that it set 4 records, and you can find advertisements in L'Auto (of TdF fame) dating back to the 40s where even companies that supplied Herse were celebrating his tandem victories in advertisements. On the other other hand, a tandem built with 0.4mm single bike tubes seems dangerously flexible. Jack Taylor said that tandem tubesets were getting scarce by the 70's, as he had to special order a minimum of 1000 sets from Reynolds, so quality tandem tube sets were already special in their own way in the 70's.
The Mont-Faron was a hill climb time trial, and the namesake bike is clearly a racing one. It notably uses 5/10 tubing, either 3/10 wasn't stiff or strong enough for hard use to justify the weight savings, or it was just really rarely used. 5/10 seems to be the standard leger upgrade option, apparently it's noteworthy enough to mention over just regular Reynolds tubes.
The Milan-San-Remo however uses 7/10, perhaps a nod to sprinters. The extremely optimistic will see this and think 5/10 and 7/10 were both heavier than Herse's standard 531, although that would make 5/10 a curious choice on the aforementioned lightweights. It could also be interpreted that 7/10 might have been less expensive, but not considered lesser to a constructeur who built single bikes with tandem tubing on occasion. The take away with tubes might just be that a Reynolds tubed bike without wall thickness mentioned meant your choice of 7/10 or upgraded 5/10, or you could leave it up to Herse to choose. The 5/10 and 7/10 are given for very specific examples.
The stem shifter on one of the bikes is a nice touch. I've seen stem shifters on pictures of a Herse before, but it's good to see one officially documented as the way it came. I haven't seen a braze-on single pivot mount before either.
There's also a typo on the 10 speed competition which has the description copied from the 5 speed version. 1971 René Herse Catalogue Sheet 10 Side A also appears to be showing the wrong page for me.
For anyone curious about the extra-stiff oversize tubing camping bikes, I'm not sure what Dupieux was ordering for France, but the standard Anglosphere tandem tubing in the 40's would have been a 28.6mm 0.81/0.56/0.81 top tube, a super heavy 31.8mm 1.2/0.81/1.2 downtube, standard 28.6mm 0.81/0.56 seat tube, heavy 1.2mm wall chainstays, oversize 17mm seatstays at 0.81mm wall thickness, and fork blades made from 1.4/0.91 wall thickness (extra thick) 22.2mm (undersize compared to modern) blanks.
I also note that Herse, in French, refers to the Cyclo shifter as double cable, despite some forum members' protestations that I am supposedly a xenophobe and 100% wrong for insisting that the rather boring and unpretentious double/twin/dual cable terminology seems to be the historically accurate and historically used term.
The 1971 Paris-Brest example, which seems to be a weight-weenie build by substituting plastic Blumel fenders and a plastic UNICA saddle for the traditional aluminum fenders and leather saddle, notably uses 5/10 531, which is apparently noteworthy, implying that many a Herse might have been built with heavier tubes. Rebour claims that 3/10(0.38mm, equivalent to 0.4mm customers demand on their custom modern planing rando bikes) tubing was available at the time, so the implication is either it was excessively difficult or expensive to obtain, and used only extremely rarely, or it was considered too light for real world use, and relegated to disposable event bikes and publicity stunts.
On the other hand, the 1971 Chanteloup says it uses Reynolds serie speciale, the term often used by Dupieux and Rebour for 3/10 tubing, but Herse had been building race winning and record setting tandems for decades at that point. The 1960 versions mentions that it set 4 records, and you can find advertisements in L'Auto (of TdF fame) dating back to the 40s where even companies that supplied Herse were celebrating his tandem victories in advertisements. On the other other hand, a tandem built with 0.4mm single bike tubes seems dangerously flexible. Jack Taylor said that tandem tubesets were getting scarce by the 70's, as he had to special order a minimum of 1000 sets from Reynolds, so quality tandem tube sets were already special in their own way in the 70's.
The Mont-Faron was a hill climb time trial, and the namesake bike is clearly a racing one. It notably uses 5/10 tubing, either 3/10 wasn't stiff or strong enough for hard use to justify the weight savings, or it was just really rarely used. 5/10 seems to be the standard leger upgrade option, apparently it's noteworthy enough to mention over just regular Reynolds tubes.
The Milan-San-Remo however uses 7/10, perhaps a nod to sprinters. The extremely optimistic will see this and think 5/10 and 7/10 were both heavier than Herse's standard 531, although that would make 5/10 a curious choice on the aforementioned lightweights. It could also be interpreted that 7/10 might have been less expensive, but not considered lesser to a constructeur who built single bikes with tandem tubing on occasion. The take away with tubes might just be that a Reynolds tubed bike without wall thickness mentioned meant your choice of 7/10 or upgraded 5/10, or you could leave it up to Herse to choose. The 5/10 and 7/10 are given for very specific examples.
The stem shifter on one of the bikes is a nice touch. I've seen stem shifters on pictures of a Herse before, but it's good to see one officially documented as the way it came. I haven't seen a braze-on single pivot mount before either.
There's also a typo on the 10 speed competition which has the description copied from the 5 speed version. 1971 René Herse Catalogue Sheet 10 Side A also appears to be showing the wrong page for me.
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Invaluable. This type of information should be preserved for the coming generations. Thank you.
I've noticed this misconception as well. Although some constructeurs used the 650B wheel size on bikes designed to be fast randonneuses, there seemed to be a preference for 700C for any type of "fast" bike through the decades, even during the "Golden Age". The demi-balloon 650B tire was mostly utilized on city bikes, utility bikes, and camping bikes when it came to production bicycles.
I've noticed this misconception as well. Although some constructeurs used the 650B wheel size on bikes designed to be fast randonneuses, there seemed to be a preference for 700C for any type of "fast" bike through the decades, even during the "Golden Age". The demi-balloon 650B tire was mostly utilized on city bikes, utility bikes, and camping bikes when it came to production bicycles.
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Thanks for these. Outstanding stuff!
__________________
1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport
1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport
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Most interesting is that, back to back, the photographs express the item(s) much less clearly than the drawings. I noticed the same with the modern (non-cycling) Duluth Trading catalogs. It's especially obvious in the Herse catalogs as Mr. Rebour was a truly exceptional talent.
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Thanks for the kind words.
Thanks for the advice!
Both corrected on Flickr (and another two figure typos, 1960 2b Juyrecord-50 i.o. 60, 04 Dating second catalogue, e) first line 1951 i.o. 1952)
PDF file replaced, all links are the same, second download not required
Daniel Rebours thought on this are as follows (from "Le Cycle" Jan. 13th, 1951):
"Le fourreau de fourche sera-t-il ovale ou cylindrique?
Ce dernier est plus souple et travaille sur une longueur supérieure; il est donc plus confortable. Il fléchit moins latéralement et tient mieux
dans l'effort dit Ť en danseuse ť.
Mais il donne de moins bons résultats avec des freins ŕ tasseaux soudés, car lors du freinage, la partie du fourreau comprise entre la tęte de fourche et le tasseau tend ŕ fléchir et donner une trčs désagréable et dangereuse vibration dans la direction.
Espérons seulement voir nos fabricants de tubes imiter les Italiens, dont les fourreaux de fourche présentent une section ovale, en haut, de 29 mm sur 20 mm. Avec ce diamčtre, on est certain de fabriquer une fourche rigide dans les deux sens ŕ la partie supérieure."
translated:
"Will the fork blade be oval or round?
The latter is more flexible and operates over a longer length, making it more comfortable. It flexes less laterally and holds better in the exercise called "as a dancer" [i.e. out of the saddle].
But it gives less good results with brakes brazed on studs, because when braking, the part of the forkblade between the fork head and the stud tends to flex and gives a very unpleasant and dangerous vibration in the steering.
Let's just hope to see our tube manufacturers imitate the Italians, whose fork blades have an oval cross-section at the top of 29 mm x 20 mm. With this diameter, it is certain to produce a rigid fork in both directions at the top."
Both corrected on Flickr (and another two figure typos, 1960 2b Juyrecord-50 i.o. 60, 04 Dating second catalogue, e) first line 1951 i.o. 1952)
PDF file replaced, all links are the same, second download not required
"Le fourreau de fourche sera-t-il ovale ou cylindrique?
Ce dernier est plus souple et travaille sur une longueur supérieure; il est donc plus confortable. Il fléchit moins latéralement et tient mieux
dans l'effort dit Ť en danseuse ť.
Mais il donne de moins bons résultats avec des freins ŕ tasseaux soudés, car lors du freinage, la partie du fourreau comprise entre la tęte de fourche et le tasseau tend ŕ fléchir et donner une trčs désagréable et dangereuse vibration dans la direction.
Espérons seulement voir nos fabricants de tubes imiter les Italiens, dont les fourreaux de fourche présentent une section ovale, en haut, de 29 mm sur 20 mm. Avec ce diamčtre, on est certain de fabriquer une fourche rigide dans les deux sens ŕ la partie supérieure."
translated:
"Will the fork blade be oval or round?
The latter is more flexible and operates over a longer length, making it more comfortable. It flexes less laterally and holds better in the exercise called "as a dancer" [i.e. out of the saddle].
But it gives less good results with brakes brazed on studs, because when braking, the part of the forkblade between the fork head and the stud tends to flex and gives a very unpleasant and dangerous vibration in the steering.
Let's just hope to see our tube manufacturers imitate the Italians, whose fork blades have an oval cross-section at the top of 29 mm x 20 mm. With this diameter, it is certain to produce a rigid fork in both directions at the top."
Last edited by HeikoS69; 02-16-20 at 12:49 PM.
#12
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Invaluable. This type of information should be preserved for the coming generations. Thank you.
I've noticed this misconception as well. Although some constructeurs used the 650B wheel size on bikes designed to be fast randonneuses, there seemed to be a preference for 700C for any type of "fast" bike through the decades, even during the "Golden Age". The demi-balloon 650B tire was mostly utilized on city bikes, utility bikes, and camping bikes when it came to production bicycles.
I've noticed this misconception as well. Although some constructeurs used the 650B wheel size on bikes designed to be fast randonneuses, there seemed to be a preference for 700C for any type of "fast" bike through the decades, even during the "Golden Age". The demi-balloon 650B tire was mostly utilized on city bikes, utility bikes, and camping bikes when it came to production bicycles.
Regarding the comments above, there is a misconception that today's randonneur bikes are just trying to recreate what existed before. It is true that most 1960s-onward randonneur bikes in France used 700C wheels and moderately stiff tubing. The ideas that narrower tires were faster and that stiffer frames were better already were deeply ingrained into cycling culture at that point.
What we've been doing in recent years is take the best from the past as a starting point for further development. 'Planing' and the benefits of tuning frame flex to the rider's pedal stroke isn't something you'll find in the French literature... and the idea that wide 650B tires can be as fast as narrow 700C racing rubber also had been lost for many decades. (In the recent Bicycle Quarterly feature, Shin-ichi Konno of Cherubim, the Japanese framebuilder, explained how frame stiffness needs to be tuned to the rider, and that most Keirin sprinters find OS tubing too stiff for their liking. A fascinating case of two parallel cycling worlds coming to the same conclusions.)
Herse also seems to have been a bit coy about what he really built for his customers. When D. Rebour reported that no bike ever should have less than 45 mm trail, Herse didn't object, even though Rebour's own Herse which Rebour praised as a paradigm of great handling had somewhere between 30 and 35 mm trail. The simple truth is that everybody was copying Herse, and keeping people in the dark about how he built his bikes helped maintain some of his competitive advantage. Herse's catalogues may have mentioned 7/10 tubing because that is what customers expected, but of the Herses that I've ridden especially the earlier ones very few felt like bikes made from 7/10 tubing. 5/10 seems to have been most common, even for tall frames, while 3/10 (available only in France at the time) was reserved for very special bikes.
So the catalog texts need to be taken with a grain of salt. They were Herse's first introduction to his customers, and he already had a reputation as the best of the best. There was no need to be an iconoclast much better confirm whatever the customers already believed. After that, Herse was famous for never explaining his customers the details of their bikes. He asked them about the features they wanted (rack, tire size, etc.) and the color. Then he made the bike. Even the frame sizing was as he saw fit and all customers still report that their Herses were the best bikes they ever had. So customers like Rebour may have thought that they were happily riding a 7/10 bike with 45 mm trail, when in fact, they were on 5/10 with 30 mm trail.
Regarding the tandems, we've measured the thickness of some tandem tubes (both Vitus and Reynolds made special OS tandem tubes for the French market), and the walls are much thicker than on the single bikes, in addition to the tubes being oversized. I've never seen a camping bike made from all-OS tubing only a single war-time porteur bike but there are quite a few Herse bikes with an OS down tube what we now call the Mule spec (except back then made with thicker walls). I've ridden one of these, and it was pleasant, albeit stiffer than the bikes I prefer.
Our goal is to use the insights of the past to make better bikes for the future, not to recreate what existed before. We benchmark our own bikes against today's best carbon bikes, because we like going fast. Lyli Herse never saw her father's bikes as classics, but as the most modern and best-performing bikes of their time. That is the tradition we're trying to continue.
Jan Heine
Rene Herse Cycles
Reborn in the Cascade Mountains
www.renehersecycles.com
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Regarding the comments above, there is a misconception that today's randonneur bikes are just trying to recreate what existed before. It is true that most 1960s-onward randonneur bikes in France used 700C wheels and moderately stiff tubing. The ideas that narrower tires were faster and that stiffer frames were better already were deeply ingrained into cycling culture at that point.
What we've been doing in recent years is take the best from the past as a starting point for further development. 'Planing' and the benefits of tuning frame flex to the rider's pedal stroke isn't something you'll find in the French literature... and the idea that wide 650B tires can be as fast as narrow 700C racing rubber also had been lost for many decades. (In the recent Bicycle Quarterly feature, Shin-ichi Konno of Cherubim, the Japanese framebuilder, explained how frame stiffness needs to be tuned to the rider, and that most Keirin sprinters find OS tubing too stiff for their liking. A fascinating case of two parallel cycling worlds coming to the same conclusions.)
What we've been doing in recent years is take the best from the past as a starting point for further development. 'Planing' and the benefits of tuning frame flex to the rider's pedal stroke isn't something you'll find in the French literature... and the idea that wide 650B tires can be as fast as narrow 700C racing rubber also had been lost for many decades. (In the recent Bicycle Quarterly feature, Shin-ichi Konno of Cherubim, the Japanese framebuilder, explained how frame stiffness needs to be tuned to the rider, and that most Keirin sprinters find OS tubing too stiff for their liking. A fascinating case of two parallel cycling worlds coming to the same conclusions.)
Funny that you mention Cherubim. I have two bikes from Shin-ichi's father, Hitoshi, from the 70s. One a 650A "randonneuse" and one a 700C sportif. The Cherubim catalogues from this time period offered the customer a choice between various grades and gauges of Japanese tubing.
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translated:
"Will the fork blade be oval or round?
The latter is more flexible and operates over a longer length, making it more comfortable. It flexes less laterally and holds better in the exercise called "as a dancer" [i.e. out of the saddle].
But it gives less good results with brakes brazed on studs, because when braking, the part of the forkblade between the fork head and the stud tends to flex and gives a very unpleasant and dangerous vibration in the steering.
Let's just hope to see our tube manufacturers imitate the Italians, whose fork blades have an oval cross-section at the top of 29 mm x 20 mm. With this diameter, it is certain to produce a rigid fork in both directions at the top."
"Will the fork blade be oval or round?
The latter is more flexible and operates over a longer length, making it more comfortable. It flexes less laterally and holds better in the exercise called "as a dancer" [i.e. out of the saddle].
But it gives less good results with brakes brazed on studs, because when braking, the part of the forkblade between the fork head and the stud tends to flex and gives a very unpleasant and dangerous vibration in the steering.
Let's just hope to see our tube manufacturers imitate the Italians, whose fork blades have an oval cross-section at the top of 29 mm x 20 mm. With this diameter, it is certain to produce a rigid fork in both directions at the top."
Canti forks need sufficient lateral stiffness so they don't splay the fork blades out (if you've ever looked at canti/v-brakes on seat stays, you can see them flex under high braking force), but also sufficient longitudinal stiffness so the effective cable length doesn't change as the forks bend. As the fork bends from braking, it tends to make the effective cable length longer, reducing braking force, then the forks bend less since they're no longer braking as hard, making effective cable length shorter, increasing breaking force, starting the cycle over. This is actually also a function of steerer flex. On modern bikes this is solved either with a fork crown cable hanger, or V-brakes which have no cable hanger. This is less important on brazed on centerpull brakes, and a non-issue with sidepull brakes.
It's also worth noting that carbon forks can be more flexible than steel forks, but also have superior damping to deal with the increased amplitude of vibrations. Perhaps the wood plug found in some steel forks offered some degree of improved damping.
Do you have a source for digitalized "Le Cyclo" or are you searing in hard copies and transcribing everything? If you are interested in finding more Herse references and maybe some advertisements, Gallica Digital Library has a searchable archive of Desgrange's "L'Auto" newspaper as well as some other cycling periodicals like "La Pedale," "Audax Club Parisien" and a few more. I have run across Herse's name several times when looking through L'Auto at least.
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1/7/1 531 seems to be a later development. It also seems to be a later development in the Anglosphere, perhaps tied to Reynolds A tubing being phased out. It doesn't show up as a standard line item in the 40's or 50's catalog, but pops up in the early 70's catalog. I also acknowledged the mention of 7/10 could just be an indicator it was used for bikes that needed to be stiffer, like a sprinter's bike or a non oversized camper.
I'm not entirely sure if 5/10 was "standard" or not in the years 7/10 was an option even if it was typical, the Federal models and several 3 tubes examples seem to indicate cost cutting could take place, even on a Herse, but it's also very possible that most people who could afford a Herse could pay for the more premium lighter tubing.
There's also some murkiness behind the meanings of 5/10 because Reynolds preferred to reference top tube gauges, which they often drew thinner in Imperial dimensions, but that wasn't true to continental tubing, and Dupieux seems to have been ordering whatever he felt would sell well in France.
On the subject of 753, as of 1970 Rebour states speciale is 7/3/7 (0.71mm/0.38mm/0.71mm, conveniently close to modern 7/4/7 tubing). O’Donovan as SBDU moves away from titanium because of non-standard tubing diameters, but picks metric sizes to develop 753 in, with the top tube size conveniently matching those given by Rebour in 1970. Heat treated 531 existed since at least the 40's. It's not unthinkable that 753 may have been a very direct evolution or remarketing of speciale.
I'm not saying modern randonneur bikes at the same as the ones from yesteryear, but if you hear it from many framebuilders and customers, many are under the impression that these modern developments are traditional, rather than actually novel and modern, because of retrogrouchiness. The scaling of the weight of riders and stiffness of frame size raises the issue that if a 25.4mm 7/4/7 tube is ideal for a M/L frame, do undersize tubes need to be given serious consideration for smaller frames which tend to have lighter riders and inherently stiffer frames? That would lead to 22.2mm/23.8mm top tubes being the obvious next step in stiffness tuning. Tubing manufacturers already have the dies for these diameters, it's just a matter of getting mandrels made. Given that I ride smaller frames, it's certainly be something I'd be curious to try building a bike with.
Last edited by Kuromori; 01-23-20 at 11:56 PM.
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I made Rodriguez tandems from '79 to '84, and we had access to Reynolds Tandem tubes. We put the oversized "Jack Taylor" blades on all our tandems, and the 28 mm OS steerer, and 531 headtube to match, on request. Angél Rodriguez designed a very strong and nice-looking cast crown for the JT blades, that could be bored for either steerer size. About half of our customers chose 1" steerers for compatibility, but the 28 mm 531 steerer was clearly a better choice for most people in my opinion. Remember this was before the introduction of 1-1/8" (28.6 mm) steerers and headsets, but 28.0 mm steerers go back many decades.
The downtubes we got from Reynolds were 30 mm and double-butted. It was my understanding at the time that the Taylors also used that DT, though I don't remember if I measured the DT on a Taylor -- anyone here know? I thought I heard that Singer, Herse et al. used 30 mm DTs also, but I don't remember where I heard that, so don't believe it unless we get corroboration.
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No doubt, the 40's Imperial tandem set is really really stout. Unfortunately, I can't find a single technical source for French Reynolds tubing that isn't 2nd or 3rd hand or just an advertisement, so I haven't a clue about the French tandem set, or what tandem set Jack Taylor was using, but his bikes do seem French inspired at times. Tandems are really on the periphery. Dupieux could have specified something closer to what Vitus or Durifort were making for tandems at the time to fit French lugs but in even lighter gauges. It's interesting to note that 1 1/8 steerers do appear in the Reynolds 40's catalog, so they were made at one time.
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Still, I wonder if Reynolds was talking about 28 mm, and just "rounding up" for their English-speaking audience?
My all-time favorite tandem steerers were the tapered ones that were 28 mm at the bottom but regular 25 mm at the top. I think those are rare but I've seen them on Herse, Singer and Bushnell tandems. I saved for myself a 531 steerer in 28 mm, and my hope is to someday use it on a bike after tapering it, and making a suitably flared head tube to match, like on this Singer:
Those 28 mm steerers are unbutted, same very thick wall all the way up, so they still take a 22 mm stem. Tapering them to 25 mm (or 1 inch) sheds some unneeded weight.
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1 1/8 headsets were found on a few trade and delivery bikes I've seen, my 51 CCM Delivery bike being one of them. Perhaps they were a stock product in the frame parts market and then migrated into other bike designs.
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Since I've always specialized in lightweights, that's kinda gross to think about, but I bet it gets the job done! As long as the job doesn't involve hills...
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UK catalog with no mention of metric tubing anywhere, except a little conversion table at the back. 3.7/1.6 or 3.3/1.6 wall, so not the same tube. Looks like the standard option at the time was for a head clip headset and stem. It could just be that the French market was floating a fairly niche market or the tandem niche started settling on French influenced standards.
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Herse's name appears much more frequently if you omit "Rene" and only search for "Herse" in L'Auto. It's actually quite interesting to see how frequently Herse is mentioned by other companies. Sometimes you can find things like mentions of Rene Andre riding for Herse before he set up his own shop, or mentions of Herse himself when he rode for Narcisse.
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Wow! Heiko, a sincere thank you for all your hard work, it is wonderful to have these available!