Domestique
#51
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There is a pretty clear line between mechanical and electronics.
I was an electro-mechanical engineer - and well, folks didn't get that.
There is a cultural sports philosophy here. Precision, exactness, getting it right - vs the unknown, human error and randomness.
The NFL CAN be the former because of the money and the camera and technology. Cycling cannot be. There is a lot of randomness from flat tires, to crashes to ... . For the most part pro races are 4 boring hours influenced by the use of electronics with some racing in the final hour which is the exciting stuff - having less electronic use. Without electronics, riders can escape and hide (most races don't have the choppers). Riders have to guess if they can attack and maintain. They have to learn to shift well. Sometime they will find they can do better than their training-with-power plan, and sometimes worse. They have to communicate with their team in non obvious ways and learn to better read the other riders - teammates and opponents. It just makes it all less predictable.
I was an electro-mechanical engineer - and well, folks didn't get that.
There is a cultural sports philosophy here. Precision, exactness, getting it right - vs the unknown, human error and randomness.
The NFL CAN be the former because of the money and the camera and technology. Cycling cannot be. There is a lot of randomness from flat tires, to crashes to ... . For the most part pro races are 4 boring hours influenced by the use of electronics with some racing in the final hour which is the exciting stuff - having less electronic use. Without electronics, riders can escape and hide (most races don't have the choppers). Riders have to guess if they can attack and maintain. They have to learn to shift well. Sometime they will find they can do better than their training-with-power plan, and sometimes worse. They have to communicate with their team in non obvious ways and learn to better read the other riders - teammates and opponents. It just makes it all less predictable.
#52
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Without electronics, riders can escape and hide (most races don't have the choppers). Riders have to guess if they can attack and maintain. They have to learn to shift well. Sometime they will find they can do better than their training-with-power plan, and sometimes worse. They have to communicate with their team in non obvious ways and learn to better read the other riders - teammates and opponents. It just makes it all less predictable.
For that matter, pay more attention to the one day classics and races other than the TdF. It's very fashionable to complain that Sky dominates, but look at the churn in smaller races. Look at Geraint Thomas's 2018 win. Consider Froome's incredible solo win in the 2018 Giro. Look at the Quickstep leadout train.
Racing is still very much a race. There may be a formula for winning the TdF, but that doesn't mean 200 racers are going to stick to the plan.
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Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton
Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton
#53
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Nothing stops the best riders from doing that now, and they do. Electronics are an aid, not a substitute for experience, instinct, intellect, and strategy. All the technology in the world doesn't stop a brilliant rider from winning. Consider Peter Sagan - he's instinct on parade, regardless of technology. The teams that dominate the sport are dominating through hiring solid riders, training them, and using winning strategies.
For that matter, pay more attention to the one day classics and races other than the TdF. It's very fashionable to complain that Sky dominates, but look at the churn in smaller races. Look at Geraint Thomas's 2018 win. Consider Froome's incredible solo win in the 2018 Giro. Look at the Quickstep leadout train.
Racing is still very much a race. There may be a formula for winning the TdF, but that doesn't mean 200 racers are going to stick to the plan.
For that matter, pay more attention to the one day classics and races other than the TdF. It's very fashionable to complain that Sky dominates, but look at the churn in smaller races. Look at Geraint Thomas's 2018 win. Consider Froome's incredible solo win in the 2018 Giro. Look at the Quickstep leadout train.
Racing is still very much a race. There may be a formula for winning the TdF, but that doesn't mean 200 racers are going to stick to the plan.
It might also be the fewer PEDs used has settled things down a bit.
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As an analogy, I enjoy riding my bike and I enjoy training. Nothing says any given ride can't accomplish training goals and still be a fun morning on the bike.
That is entirely possible. The world is a different place than it was 10 or 20 or 30 years ago.
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Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton
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#55
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In a sport somebody - fans, officials, committees decide where the lines are.
-how far,many days, how steep, what mass and the parts, geometry
Deciding to disallow ABS or AWD in some race cars, as well as computer links is part of the "parts" part. It put winning more on the driver and less on the engineers and crew, although still important.
I see the, presumably, only legally drugged top athletes as amazingly close in ability. Add the electronics and the variability is even less.
I'm not up there with the Hunger Games in introducing purposeful hazards (but they understood the issue in the movie), but completely eliminating human aids would increase that variability and make the sport a bit more fun [for me] to watch. I would also enjoy races that are about speed and power and skill over endurance. I understand that is incredible work, planning and talent, to race that long - and win, but find 60 mile races more interesting than 120 mile races. When TV has an hour to fill to cover a race, they know the parts to focus on. those are the parts that are using electronics the least.
#56
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No radios needed. Other teams have not been willing to attack the Giant Elephant Sky Team.
#57
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Hotel Domestique | Experience the pinnacle of fine living.
make a life out of finishing second
boggles my mind
make a life out of finishing second
boggles my mind
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Yuppers
For some reason I hate the “Team Racing” concept of bicycle racing and the idea of the “Domestique”.
For me I would prefer that every rider rides for himself. If you are a great rider than show me how good you are. I think riding in the slipstream of teammates for 97% of the race and then having a few good days in the mountains or time trials is not proving much.
I do understand the financial hardships this could cause the lesser known riders who aren’t bringing in enough money for the costs associated with riding in the TDF.. Team concept makes sense for the financial side of the business. Maybe they could have one year out of every five years that teams are banned from the TDF.
Am I crazy for thinking this?
For me I would prefer that every rider rides for himself. If you are a great rider than show me how good you are. I think riding in the slipstream of teammates for 97% of the race and then having a few good days in the mountains or time trials is not proving much.
I do understand the financial hardships this could cause the lesser known riders who aren’t bringing in enough money for the costs associated with riding in the TDF.. Team concept makes sense for the financial side of the business. Maybe they could have one year out of every five years that teams are banned from the TDF.
Am I crazy for thinking this?
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The domestique arrangement came about for one simple reason: professional bike racing is the hardest sport ever created, far harder than any other professional sports. Therefore, the most successful pro bike race teams are the teams where the domestiques ride most selflessly in support of the star rider. If you prefer other arrangements, you have plenty of other sports to follow.
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The domestique arrangement came about for one simple reason: professional bike racing is the hardest sport ever created, far harder than any other professional sports. Therefore, the most successful pro bike race teams are the teams where the domestiques ride most selflessly in support of the star rider. If you prefer other arrangements, you have plenty of other sports to follow.
#62
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The fact that he can be the strongest, fastest, most protected rider on the best team with the best domestiques and still not win because somebody called his bluff or outsmarted him with smart use of his own domestiques... that's why I watch. Well, that and the scenery.
Last edited by DiabloScott; 04-22-19 at 11:46 AM.
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If only there was a discipline where it was one man against the clock in a test of just how fast he could ride a given course.,,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCI_Ro...27s_time_trial
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCI_Ro...27s_time_trial
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Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton
Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton
#65
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As as far as the glory, the first guy across the line gets to wear the jersey; but the Team structure traditionally says the winner splits the $$ with his lieutenants.
Short version: they help him win because they get paid to. They get paid more if he does win.
They’re professional bike racers. They’re doing for the money, not the ‘purity of the sport’
If you help your guy win a lot, some other team might offer you more money to help their guy win.
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I’m starting to fear that my whole professional career will be a meaningless waste since I’m not aiming to become CEO... 😉
Last edited by ThermionicScott; 04-25-19 at 02:46 PM.
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Out of curiosity, do you race? FWIW, there are two kinds of races that are especially satisfying. The most obvious is one that ends with you standing on the podium. What you're apparently missing is that it is also very satisfying to make a strategy come together and put one of your teammates on the podium. That counts as winning, too. It requires a lot more than just being fast on the bike.
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Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton
Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton
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I think OP's confusion (and I'm trying to be generous) stems from the fact that bike racing is a team sport that appears on the surface to be an individual sport.
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New to the concept of team sports?
Out of curiosity, do you race? FWIW, there are two kinds of races that are especially satisfying. The most obvious is one that ends with you standing on the podium. What you're apparently missing is that it is also very satisfying to make a strategy come together and put one of your teammates on the podium. That counts as winning, too. It requires a lot more than just being fast on the bike.
Out of curiosity, do you race? FWIW, there are two kinds of races that are especially satisfying. The most obvious is one that ends with you standing on the podium. What you're apparently missing is that it is also very satisfying to make a strategy come together and put one of your teammates on the podium. That counts as winning, too. It requires a lot more than just being fast on the bike.
Give up. There's something about this that Rajflyboy can't or doesn't want to understand and no amount of explanation is going to change that. He has a fantasy of how road racing should be that is not anchored in reality. It's harmless to let him fantasize and pointless to try to burst his make-believe bubble.
#72
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#73
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(Not just to you, bbbean , but to all the well meaning explainers on this thread)
Give up. There's something about this that Rajflyboy can't or doesn't want to understand and no amount of explanation is going to change that. He has a fantasy of how road racing should be that is not anchored in reality. It's harmless to let him fantasize and pointless to try to burst his make-believe bubble.
Give up. There's something about this that Rajflyboy can't or doesn't want to understand and no amount of explanation is going to change that. He has a fantasy of how road racing should be that is not anchored in reality. It's harmless to let him fantasize and pointless to try to burst his make-believe bubble.
#74
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this guy didn’t need or get any help and he won
my kind of rider on a small team without much help or funding and he destroyed the field in the sprint
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Thanks for sharing your insightful observations. I look forward to reading more of your in depth race analyses.
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Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton
Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton