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Illusion of "aero" bike frames

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Illusion of "aero" bike frames

Old 09-30-19, 09:02 AM
  #26  
MoAlpha
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Originally Posted by tagaproject6
Wait until you see the Illusion of Drop Bars
Indeed, I may even have contributed some pearls to that swill trough! Now we must stop, lest we get busted for meta-posting.
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Old 09-30-19, 09:03 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Yeah, to > 7 pages.
Oooh, I gotta get in on the ground fl- uh, first page on this one.

Edited to add: Damn! I missed!
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Old 09-30-19, 09:15 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by seypat
It's no myth. At least that's my excuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4Te-wrCQsM
I thought we skinny guys were more aero! I guess this explains why some of the fat boys clean my clock on the flats and downs. Got to put on some avoirdupois this winter.
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Old 09-30-19, 09:20 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by mcours2006
Surprising that they haven't gone to using dimples on the frame like they do with golf balls...or maybe they have.🤷
...
https://bikerumor.com/2016/10/19/her...ake-aero-road/
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Old 09-30-19, 09:29 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope
Well, winter is right around the corner.
Yay! ⛷️
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Old 09-30-19, 10:22 AM
  #31  
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Because drag increases with the square of velocity increase, marginal differences in the aerodynamics of the bike will have more benefit for fast riders than slow. Obviously, going from a hybrid frame to a TT frame is more than a marginal difference, but if your cruising speed is, say, 15 mph, you probably aren't going to see a whole lot of difference going to aero wheels, etc.

Obviously, the rider is the least aerodynamic element on the bike, which is why enclosing the rider in cowling is so much more effective at reducing drag than anything allowed by UCI or, for that matter, anything practical on the road.

Cowling a recumbent rider: https://qz.com/818769/the-worlds-fas...-go-at-89-mph/
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Old 09-30-19, 10:30 AM
  #32  
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Even if it's 1 second per hour faster, lots of aero road bikes look amazing.

Also, there's zero arguing if TT/tri bikes enter the argument. Hobbyist TT riders go fast enough, and triathletes go far enough.......that the marginal gain makes a difference. For an Ironman we're talking minutes. Which could mean a podium or AG slot to Kona for people.........or going home.

Even slow TT'ers will go downhill at some point at more than 30mph.

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Old 09-30-19, 10:30 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by fuji_owner
No matter how aero a frame is built, the rider's leg movements generate such a huge turbulence, that all the aero effects are gone.
If only it were somehow possible to measure differences in drag between two bikes while a rider's legs are moving.
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Old 09-30-19, 11:15 AM
  #34  
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Refuse to believe people think aero bikes look good, regardless of them working or not. Smh. Any time I see one of those UCI-illegal tri-bikes, I'm thankful that for all the bad the UCI has done, they at least spared us from those monstrosities.

What's next, Softrides and Y-frame Treks having cult followings? Nah, that'd never happen.
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Old 09-30-19, 11:23 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by sheddle
Refuse to believe people think aero bikes look good, regardless of them working or not. Smh. Any time I see one of those UCI-illegal tri-bikes, I'm thankful that for all the bad the UCI has done, they at least spared us from those monstrosities.

What's next, Softrides and Y-frame Treks having cult followings? Nah, that'd never happen.
Aesthetics are a very personal thing. I love the look of an aero bike on deep wheels. I also like a lean race bike with dropped seat stays. Don't care for the look of "classic" bikes. To each his own.
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Old 09-30-19, 11:38 AM
  #36  
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I actually kind of like the dropped-stay Tarmac look, and BMC's similar stuff- they're like the bike equivalent of a tiny-but-rapid sports car, or a hot hatch. It's stuff like the Madone with the eeeenormously obnoxious "TREK" decal on the wide aerotubes extending to the side of the headtube which is my current bete noir.

That, and the Dogma, which I think is one of the most ugly racing bikes I've ever seen.
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Old 09-30-19, 12:24 PM
  #37  
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Obviously, the rider is the least aerodynamic element on the bike, which is why enclosing the rider in cowling is so much more effective at reducing drag than anything allowed by UCI or, for that matter, anything practical on the road.
Cowling, I like that word! That's what I'm going to call my gut from now on.

Wife: Honey, that shed you are building over your tool is getting a little large."
Me: "Heck, this ain't a tool shed, it's an aero cowling. It helps me ride faster." (wink, wink)
Wife: "In your dreams. I'm not feeling the benefit myself. But go on thinking that if you wish."
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Old 09-30-19, 12:32 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by sheddle
I actually kind of like the dropped-stay Tarmac look, and BMC's similar stuff- they're like the bike equivalent of a tiny-but-rapid sports car, or a hot hatch. It's stuff like the Madone with the eeeenormously obnoxious "TREK" decal on the wide aerotubes extending to the side of the headtube which is my current bete noir.

That, and the Dogma, which I think is one of the most ugly racing bikes I've ever seen.
Everyone swoons over Pinarello, I think all of their stuff is pretty ugly. But obviously plenty of people like them. It's nice to have choices!

While we're on the topic of aesthetics, I'm actually kind of weirdly glad that I ride a 56, because most bikes in bigger/smaller sizes just look odd. I get that we have no control over what size bike we need, but I'm still glad. lol
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Old 09-30-19, 01:15 PM
  #39  
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Most of the gains are from positioning the Rider in a lower position. Replicate the position and you are most of the way there. Combine with a aero front wheel, a helmet, shoe covers and a suit, and you picked most of the available/possible gains.
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Old 09-30-19, 02:29 PM
  #40  
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Troll.
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Old 09-30-19, 02:54 PM
  #41  
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Totally hot! Ssss!
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Old 09-30-19, 05:28 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by mcours2006
Totally hot! Ssss!
Well, I like dimples ... in certain contexts ... in certain places ...

On a bike? Irrelevant to me, as a total slow Fred, but whatever! Consider the link a public service; a contribution to this very, very serious thread.
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Old 09-30-19, 05:38 PM
  #43  
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As a recreational rider, if you think spending $5-10K on a CF Aero bike will make you 2% faster on a given ride.....go for it.
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Old 09-30-19, 07:05 PM
  #44  
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..

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Old 09-30-19, 07:16 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by RChung
If only it were somehow possible to measure differences in drag between two bikes while a rider's legs are moving.
Isn't that exactly what Giant had done back in 2012 during the development of the Propel. They used an articulating manikin on competing manufacturer's aero frames(bikes) in a Formula 1 testing company's wind tunnel???

OOPS, just found ---- https://www.velonews.com/2017/08/new...o-bikes_446744

"....The frameset

Since this is an aero bike, aero came first. Giant designed the bike at Aero Concept Engineering’s (ACE) wind tunnel at the Magny-Cours formula 1 racetrack in Nevers, France. The tunnel was originally designed for low-speed testing and operates on a closed loop circuit — both important to acquiring reliable data on a bicycle.

Giant’s relationship with ACE dates back to the first edition rim-brake Propel. With a mannequin mounted to the bike, Giant has what it believes is the best model for optimizing the design of the frame for real world conditions. Giant tested against the Trek Madone, Specialized Venge, and other top frames, and claims the Propel is fastest using its testing methods. Giant also claimed that its new Propel is faster than the old Propel. As of press time, Giant had not yet provided the actual data to back up these claims, though it says it’s coming....."

Not sure if actual data has been released yet but method was employed for comparison.

Last edited by OldTryGuy; 09-30-19 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 09-30-19, 07:20 PM
  #46  
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The illusion of time

People think an aero bike will help them shave time off a 40k, but scientists don't even know what time is!
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Old 09-30-19, 08:20 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by mcours2006
Surprising that they haven't gone to using dimples on the frame like they do with golf balls...or maybe they have.🤷
Didnt Zipp have dimpled carbon rims? I saw a video where some guy 'proved' the dimples were in the wrong location to be useful.
I have no idea if he is correct or a moron, hence the 'proved'.
Didnt seem to take off
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Old 09-30-19, 08:20 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by OldTryGuy
Isn't that exactly what Giant had done back in 2012 ...
Have you ever even ridden on a track?
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Old 09-30-19, 08:21 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by fuji_owner
Why do so many people get bought in on the "aero" frame scam?

No matter how aero a frame is built, the rider's leg movements generate such a huge turbulence, that all the aero effects are gone. For any real aero effects, air flow all around the bike frame needs to be laminar, not turbulent.

And no matter how low you get on the bike, you're still the biggest non-aero component of the bike+human system. You just being on the bike makes it fundamentally non-aero anyways.

You can more likely gain the touted effects of aero frames more by making the drive train and chain stays stiffer for more power transfer, and choosing tires with lower rolling resistance.
So once a frame has a stiffer BB, stiffer chainstays, and low resistance tires- then what?
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Old 09-30-19, 08:35 PM
  #50  
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Cumulative gains....If you get to the coffee shop 5 seconds sooner, you may get there before the school bus, and avoid being stuck behind 15 middle-schoolers ordering pumpkin spice caramel macchiatos.

Thus saving 20 minutes!
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