Kestrel 200SCI threaded headset issue
05-08-18, 10:01 AM
#1
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Kestrel 200SCI threaded headset issue
Hi all, I'm pretty good with shifting, brakes, bb's, etc, but headsets are a puzzle to me. I love it that they let me turn the front wheel and change direction, everything else is voodoo. 
Seriously, I've never installed or dealt with one, so this has me a bit puzzled. I'll go over it below, and maybe it's something simple-
Riding along last year, when I hit the front brake, I hear the headset going "clunk, clunk" oh, something is loose, so I get her home, turn the big ol nut on the top of the headset, it moves a bit, and then seems to get pretty tight, viola, problem solved! Well for a few weeks, then it was back. At the same time, the threaded stem has a quill in it, and it seems to turn slightly to the left as this happens as well. So, tightened it down again, adjusted, same thing. So I'm back to square one again, with the same thing, I know I can just keep tightening it down, but any suggestions for how to stop it from working loose, or is this a common issue with threaded headsets? (It's a Cane Creek I believe, and it's silky smooth when I tighten it down, so I don't think there is anything wrong other than it working loose).
Joe
Seriously, I've never installed or dealt with one, so this has me a bit puzzled. I'll go over it below, and maybe it's something simple-Riding along last year, when I hit the front brake, I hear the headset going "clunk, clunk" oh, something is loose, so I get her home, turn the big ol nut on the top of the headset, it moves a bit, and then seems to get pretty tight, viola, problem solved! Well for a few weeks, then it was back. At the same time, the threaded stem has a quill in it, and it seems to turn slightly to the left as this happens as well. So, tightened it down again, adjusted, same thing. So I'm back to square one again, with the same thing, I know I can just keep tightening it down, but any suggestions for how to stop it from working loose, or is this a common issue with threaded headsets? (It's a Cane Creek I believe, and it's silky smooth when I tighten it down, so I don't think there is anything wrong other than it working loose).
Joe
05-08-18, 11:04 AM
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For safety's sake I would suggest a take apart of the headset/fork/stem assembly. I would want to look at the fork's threads for any damage including rounded off threads and possible cracks at the thread roots. I would look at the steerer's condition WRT where the stem's wedge sits for any evidence of bulging or other reasons that a stem's being tight for years becomes loose with no outside changes. I would look at the stem's wedge and draw bolt for their possibly having thread damage as well as the stem's interface with the wedge for any damage there. I would look at the headset's top nut and the threaded upper race (cup or cone type) for their thread conditions.
While a loosening headset can be ridden for a long time if there's any underlying condition that could lead to sudden loss of steering control or your ability to support your weight then the bike is unsafe. it's up to the rider to find this out. Whether that's done by a pro or at home it needs to be done. I seriously doubt any helmet you use has a full face coverage and doubt you wear other body armor. Andy
I'll add that relying on a single headset wrench to insure that the threaded race and the top/lock nut are properly/fully tightened against each other is assuming that any washer's anti rotation tab (this is the washer that is between the threaded parts) is able to resist the top nut's tightening with out transferring that rotation through to the threaded race. I've seen many tabbed washers where the tab was forced out of the steerer's groove. This results in an insufficiently tightened top nut and threaded race and more deviously create the damage to the steerer that can cause a crack in time.
While a loosening headset can be ridden for a long time if there's any underlying condition that could lead to sudden loss of steering control or your ability to support your weight then the bike is unsafe. it's up to the rider to find this out. Whether that's done by a pro or at home it needs to be done. I seriously doubt any helmet you use has a full face coverage and doubt you wear other body armor. Andy
I'll add that relying on a single headset wrench to insure that the threaded race and the top/lock nut are properly/fully tightened against each other is assuming that any washer's anti rotation tab (this is the washer that is between the threaded parts) is able to resist the top nut's tightening with out transferring that rotation through to the threaded race. I've seen many tabbed washers where the tab was forced out of the steerer's groove. This results in an insufficiently tightened top nut and threaded race and more deviously create the damage to the steerer that can cause a crack in time.
Last edited by Andrew R Stewart; 05-08-18 at 11:09 AM.
05-08-18, 11:31 AM
#3
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Thread Starter
For safety's sake I would suggest a take apart of the headset/fork/stem assembly. I would want to look at the fork's threads for any damage including rounded off threads and possible cracks at the thread roots. I would look at the steerer's condition WRT where the stem's wedge sits for any evidence of bulging or other reasons that a stem's being tight for years becomes loose with no outside changes. I would look at the stem's wedge and draw bolt for their possibly having thread damage as well as the stem's interface with the wedge for any damage there. I would look at the headset's top nut and the threaded upper race (cup or cone type) for their thread conditions.
While a loosening headset can be ridden for a long time if there's any underlying condition that could lead to sudden loss of steering control or your ability to support your weight then the bike is unsafe. it's up to the rider to find this out. Whether that's done by a pro or at home it needs to be done. I seriously doubt any helmet you use has a full face coverage and doubt you wear other body armor. Andy
I'll add that relying on a single headset wrench to insure that the threaded race and the top/lock nut are properly/fully tightened against each other is assuming that any washer's anti rotation tab (this is the washer that is between the threaded parts) is able to resist the top nut's tightening with out transferring that rotation through to the threaded race. I've seen many tabbed washers where the tab was forced out of the steerer's groove. This results in an insufficiently tightened top nut and threaded race and more deviously create the damage to the steerer that can cause a crack in time.
While a loosening headset can be ridden for a long time if there's any underlying condition that could lead to sudden loss of steering control or your ability to support your weight then the bike is unsafe. it's up to the rider to find this out. Whether that's done by a pro or at home it needs to be done. I seriously doubt any helmet you use has a full face coverage and doubt you wear other body armor. Andy
I'll add that relying on a single headset wrench to insure that the threaded race and the top/lock nut are properly/fully tightened against each other is assuming that any washer's anti rotation tab (this is the washer that is between the threaded parts) is able to resist the top nut's tightening with out transferring that rotation through to the threaded race. I've seen many tabbed washers where the tab was forced out of the steerer's groove. This results in an insufficiently tightened top nut and threaded race and more deviously create the damage to the steerer that can cause a crack in time.
Great advice, to be clear, the stem and wedge are new, they remain solid untill I adjust them, but the steering part keeps working lose. The handlebars and wheel are always snug and tight, I can always hold the wheel between my knees (standing in front of the bike) and turn the handlebars with a fair amount of force with no movement of the handlebars. The clunking is def the actual top nut working lose, as when I tighten it down it fixes it. I haven't ever had one of these apart, and this is my main bike, so I hate to take it apart not knowing if I will know what I'm looking at when I get it apart
I'll do a little more research on dis-assembly and re-assembly and get back to you.Joe
05-08-18, 11:39 AM
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Joe- You're the one who can touch and assess your bike. Long distance we can't. But when we reply and advise we have an obligation to try to give the broadest set of possibilities until more data is known. (and many here don't follow this obligation, or just don't really know the full range of possibilities and only give advice that's within their experience. If we were doctors that could be called negligence). Please do the work and report back. Andy
05-08-18, 11:46 AM
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Joe- You're the one who can touch and assess your bike. Long distance we can't. But when we reply and advise we have an obligation to try to give the broadest set of possibilities until more data is known. (and many here don't follow this obligation, or just don't really know the full range of possibilities and only give advice that's within their experience. If we were doctors that could be called negligence). Please do the work and report back. Andy
Looking at a quick video it seems I just might not be tightening the lock nut on top down far enough and that's allowing the headset to work loose, I'll disassemble this weekend time permitting and re tighten everything.
05-08-18, 11:55 AM
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Joe- And use two headset wrenches when doing the final tightening. Hold the wrench that's on the threaded race stationary and only rotate the top nut's wrench. Also start the final adjustment process with the bike assembled and on the floor with the initial headset a tad loose. Rock the bike back and forth when locking only the ft brake, the front tire's contact with the floor will be a pivot point that the loose in heat tube fork will rock within. The bit by bit reset the adjustment, tighten the top nut fully and retest for any rock. When the rock has JUST vanished, the threaded parts are fully countered tightened and the fork swings freely when the bike is slightly tipped to one side your adjustment is correct. If you can't get to this free swing under only the handle bar's weight or the rock can't be eliminated the headset is likely worn (out). Andy
05-08-18, 05:17 PM
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Yes, as @Andrew R Stewart mentions, you need to check the threads on the steer tube for damage.
When you ride with a loose headset, the threaded cup rocks back and forth a little on the threads, eventually eroding them away until there's not enough left to hold the cup in adjustment. If that is what happened to your fork, you have essentially two options: 1) replace the fork, or 2) melt brass into the damaged area and cut new threads into the brass. Brass threads aren't as strong as steel threads, but as long as you're careful to keep it properly adjusted you should be able to get many more years of service.
When you ride with a loose headset, the threaded cup rocks back and forth a little on the threads, eventually eroding them away until there's not enough left to hold the cup in adjustment. If that is what happened to your fork, you have essentially two options: 1) replace the fork, or 2) melt brass into the damaged area and cut new threads into the brass. Brass threads aren't as strong as steel threads, but as long as you're careful to keep it properly adjusted you should be able to get many more years of service.
05-09-18, 07:51 AM
#8
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Thread Starter
Yes, as @Andrew R Stewart mentions, you need to check the threads on the steer tube for damage.
When you ride with a loose headset, the threaded cup rocks back and forth a little on the threads, eventually eroding them away until there's not enough left to hold the cup in adjustment. If that is what happened to your fork, you have essentially two options: 1) replace the fork, or 2) melt brass into the damaged area and cut new threads into the brass. Brass threads aren't as strong as steel threads, but as long as you're careful to keep it properly adjusted you should be able to get many more years of service.
When you ride with a loose headset, the threaded cup rocks back and forth a little on the threads, eventually eroding them away until there's not enough left to hold the cup in adjustment. If that is what happened to your fork, you have essentially two options: 1) replace the fork, or 2) melt brass into the damaged area and cut new threads into the brass. Brass threads aren't as strong as steel threads, but as long as you're careful to keep it properly adjusted you should be able to get many more years of service.
Joe
