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520 w/panniers or Domane with Trailer?

Old 11-29-19, 07:24 PM
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520 w/panniers or Domane with Trailer?

Okay,

Got a question for you seasoned tourers. Weighed my gear and bikes for a choice between a heavier touring bike w/ panniers and a lighter endurance bike with a trailer. Heard all the stories about going up hill with a trailer, so I wanted to see what the difference was (without my gear, but just the bike and the set up for touring). When it all was measured, the bike with the trailer was a lighter set up than the Trek 520. Granted, the tires on the 520 are 38c's and the Domane is sporting 25c tires - both 700. Both set of tires are puncture resistant tires.

I still cannot help but think - if you are going up hill, weight is weight, no matter if it is directly underneath you or spread out. And, if most of the weight for touring is low to the ground, behind you and a little more aerodynamic, makes since that the peddling would be easier. Not to mention, reducing the risk of broken spokes.

Gearing on the 520 has a triple crank and a low 16 gear inches on the granny, whereas the Domane has a 29 GI low on a double crank. Any opinions?
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Old 11-29-19, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Fullcount
Okay,

Got a question for you seasoned tourers. Weighed my gear and bikes for a choice between a heavier touring bike w/ panniers and a lighter endurance bike with a trailer. Heard all the stories about going up hill with a trailer, so I wanted to see what the difference was (without my gear, but just the bike and the set up for touring). When it all was measured, the bike with the trailer was a lighter set up than the Trek 520. Granted, the tires on the 520 are 38c's and the Domane is sporting 25c tires - both 700. Both set of tires are puncture resistant tires.

I still cannot help but think - if you are going up hill, weight is weight, no matter if it is directly underneath you or spread out. And, if most of the weight for touring is low to the ground, behind you and a little more aerodynamic, makes since that the peddling would be easier. Not to mention, reducing the risk of broken spokes.

Gearing on the 520 has a triple crank and a low 16 gear inches on the granny, whereas the Domane has a 29 GI low on a double crank. Any opinions?
Three things you aren’t considering. One is that a trailer has another wheel with the rolling resistance that comes with another tire. Granted it may not be much but it is still there. You also have another tire and wheel to deal with. A trailer wheel is just as prone to flats as any other tire. The other issue, which is probably the most important, is that the trailer makes the bike handle differently. It pushes and lifts the bike on downhills and corners. It can become disconcerting at high speed or tight corners. That’s not a place where you want handling to be compromised.
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Old 11-29-19, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Fullcount
....choice between a heavier touring bike w/ panniers and a lighter endurance bike with a trailer. ...

...520 has a triple crank and a low 16 gear inches on the granny, whereas the Domane has a 29 GI low on a double crank. Any opinions?....

you are comparing apples to something other than a fruit.

seems you are planning on taking approximately the same load - unspecified but
assume a relatively heavy load considering needing a trailer rather than using
bikepacking gear with the sport bike.

and you want to climb hills.

with a 29-inch low gear?



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Old 11-29-19, 09:11 PM
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Depending on the location, I've toured equally happy with bike with panniers, bike with trailer and bike with panniers and trailer.

I've slimmed down to now owning only a single wheel trailer (Extrawheel trailer) but it was due to moving countries and an inability to take everything I owned that saw me part with my Carryfreedom Y-frame which I miss.

I wouldn't consider any touring with 29 gear inches due to my preference for 15.

Good brakes are a necessity for trailering.

One of the negatives with trailering is the propensity for taking too much.
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Old 11-29-19, 10:15 PM
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I coincidentally own a Domane and 520. I have done a lot of touring on the 520. None on the Domane. So, take my comment for what it is worth.

I understand your question but in comparing the two bikes for a tour, I would include your position in the saddle and its impact on comfort. I have never ridden my Domane on a tour nor even loaded with packs or a trailer. And, I have not ridden it day after day for the length of a tour. So, I can't make a real comparison except by extrapolation. But my sense is the 520 would make for a better vacation.

You will be in the saddle for a long time, day after day. I would suggest you add the 'comfort' analysis to the criteria for your final decision.
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Old 11-30-19, 06:32 AM
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Yeah. 29 gi? No way if there are hills. Double no way if there are mountains.

I’ve encountered several long stretches of road work where 25c would have forced me to stick out my thumb. And off-road options where more tire is necessary are often nice breaks from paved roads with traffic.

The long term comfort issue is also important.

Traveling with a trailer can also add issues.

In the end, what is the % weight difference including your body weight?

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Old 11-30-19, 07:41 AM
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as duly noted, riding comfort (position) and more importantly, 29 gear inches is the real kicker here.

this is a common mistake for riders who havent ridden with X lbs of load on a bike, the lower gearing required to not overload your knees with X load on a Y hill (gradient, length, how much climbing in a day) is simply a whole different kettle of fish compared to riding unloaded or lightly loaded.

unfortunately, the only way to really know what its like is to experience it yourself. A lot of people just don't get it, or accept it, or admit it, and ride with over geared bikes. The odd person is built with beefy legs and knees and can handle lower cadences, but as a rule, having properly low gears appropriate to the situation (bike+load weight+terrain+rider strength) means that you can successfully ride in all kinds of situations without over straining your knees, and keeping ones knees etc in good condition is the real secret to participating in this bike touring thing throughout your lifetime.
(and this touches on bike positioning also of course, for neck, hands etc--again, rather personal)
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Old 11-30-19, 07:41 AM
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How are you getting to the start and end points for your tour? Would a trailer make logistics more complicated?

Uphill with a load with a low gear of 29 inches? I would not want to do that. My touring bikes (all use panniers, no trailer) range from 16.2 to 20.7 gear inches. My road bike lowest gear is 30.6 gear inches and my rando bike is 25.1 gear inches. I would not even want to carry a camping load of gear on my rando bike which has better low gears than your road bike.

I prefer to tour with fenders, looks like that is not on your priority list for either bike. But if you change your mind, the 520 probably is a better choice.

If you need a repair, I suspect any bike shop would have what you need for parts for the 520, maybe not for the high end carbon wonder bike.

The point made by Debade on riding position is quite real, do you want to be on your race bike in race posture all day long every day? If you are a former racer, maybe that works for you but not for me. I have a high angle stem on my road bike so it gives me a posture similar to touring bikes.

The 520 is older, how well maintained is it? Would that be more likely to have a breakdown?

I am guessing that the probability of a rack failure is similar to probability of a trailer failure, both are quite low but you should inspect both to see what you think.

Finally, which bike would handle better on a long day when you are tired and daydreaming and not watching the road carefully? Touring bikes are better at holding a straight line if you take your eyes off the road for a few seconds than road bikes.

So far you are focusing on weight, but there are a lot of other factors than weight on a bike for touring.

Last edited by Tourist in MSN; 11-30-19 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 11-30-19, 09:56 AM
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I agree that 1) it all depends on how much you're going to carry, and 2) a trailer will likely increase the amount you carry.

If you're going to be touring urban areas, a trailer could present parking problems. Some businesses and lodges will let you bring a bike inside (always ask first), but that gets way more difficult with a trailer. Ditto if you ever encounter obstacles like stiles in trails, or fords, or even hotel stairs, where carrying the bike is required.

I toured over 2000 miles one summer on a road bike, and it kind of beat me up. And I was young then. The heavier touring bike I replaced it with was more comfortable.

Over the last decade, I greatly reduced my pack weight (under 20 lbs) and found I no longer needed a triple crankset. My new bike has a low ratio of 29 g.i. and I like it.
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Old 11-30-19, 10:03 AM
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Hampton is pretty flat. If you were heading north, say, up the eastern shore, or south to nags head, 29 gi might be plenty. The biggest issue out there are headwinds. If you are heading towards charlottesville, shenendoah valley, etc. game over, you want 16 GI. I live on Afton mtn. / Blue ridge parkway/ Skyline- 16 GI.

Another "totally overanalyzing" thing to consider if there are climbs, are the rotational masses of the wheels.

Let's say you have approximately a 1600 gm wheelset and 500 gms in tires on your light bike. Your third wheel now counts as well- so add whatever that weighs to your overall wheelset (+1.5 lbs? 680 grams?.. at least? I don't know). Now your 1600 gm wheelset is more like a 2300gm wheelset. That's something you can feel on an unloaded bike. Perhaps not in the context of a loaded bike, but the loss is still there. That rotational mass (at least in my unscientific experience) makes a more significant difference than static mass, and is felt more in acceleration/ climbing.

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Old 11-30-19, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by debade
I coincidentally own a Domane and 520. I have done a lot of touring on the 520. None on the Domane. So, take my comment for what it is worth.

I understand your question but in comparing the two bikes for a tour, I would include your position in the saddle and its impact on comfort. I have never ridden my Domane on a tour nor even loaded with packs or a trailer. And, I have not ridden it day after day for the length of a tour. So, I can't make a real comparison except by extrapolation. But my sense is the 520 would make for a better vacation.

You will be in the saddle for a long time, day after day. I would suggest you add the 'comfort' analysis to the criteria for your final decision.
just for clarification, I will be taking the same gear on either bike. I hike also and have my base weight down to 12 lbs without food and water (including my pack).

The Domane has a SA leather saddle and the 520 a Brooks saddle. I ride th Domane on any long ride such as a Rando ride or metric century. The Domane is my favorite daily ride. Took the Domane out for a 40 mile ride with the trailer loaded with a couple of small climbs (we don’t have a lot of hills here in Eastern Va). Even going up, I did not have to drop down into the lowest gear.
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Old 11-30-19, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by dualresponse
Hampton is pretty flat. If you were heading north, say, up the eastern shore, or south to nags head, 29 gi might be plenty. The biggest issue out there are headwinds. If you are heading towards charlottesville, shenendoah valley, etc. game over, you want 16 GI. I live on Afton mtn. / Blue ridge parkway/ Skyline- 16 GI.

Another "totally overanalyzing" thing to consider if there are climbs, are the rotational masses of the wheels.

Let's say you have approximately a 1600 gm wheelset and 500 gms in tires on your light bike. Your third wheel now counts as well- so add whatever that weighs to your overall wheelset (+1.5 lbs? 680 grams?.. at least? I don't know). Now your 1600 gm wheelset is more like a 2300gm wheelset. That's something you can feel on an unloaded bike. Perhaps not in the context of a loaded bike, but the loss is still there. That rotational mass (at least in my unscientific experience) makes a more significant difference than static mass, and is felt more in acceleration/ climbing.
i have to so more homework on this rotational mass factor. Never thought of this, but makes some sense. Like I said early on, the 520 has 700 x 38c tires and the Domane has 700 x 25c tires. Question, should I be pulling the wheels and weighing them on each bike set up - rim, tire and all and then make this comparison with the addition of the trailer wheel? Need help in quantifying what you are saying.
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Old 11-30-19, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Fullcount
just for clarification, I will be taking the same gear on either bike. I hike also and have my base weight down to 12 lbs without food and water (including my pack).

The Domane has a SA leather saddle and the 520 a Brooks saddle. I ride th Domane on any long ride such as a Rando ride or metric century. The Domane is my favorite daily ride. Took the Domane out for a 40 mile ride with the trailer loaded with a couple of small climbs (we don’t have a lot of hills here in Eastern Va). Even going up, I did not have to drop down into the lowest gear.
heck, if your base weight from hiking is that low, why even consider the trailer? You surely must be able to bikepack bag all that stuff on the road bike. I also didnt read properly that you already have both bikes and trailer, but if the Domane is comfortable for you and it works as is, fit wise and gearing wise, go with what works for you--there certainly isn't a right or wrong answer.
Given how low your packing weight is, and that you have experience hiking, a large seat bag, the ones that stick out and upwards, with a handlebar bag, and you probably fit all your stuff in these and maybe a gas tank type thing and or frame bag.

have fun no matter, but to this spectator, the trailer seems like overkill (and more weight)
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Old 11-30-19, 07:47 PM
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The 520 is a great touring bike. Save the domane for day trip in peletons
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Old 11-30-19, 08:50 PM
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I see in your Bikes area that you have one of those 2104 Trek Domanes. Future bike!

Don't know that bike but I did an interrupted tour on a Bridgestone RB-T using four panniers during the first part and a B.O.B. trailer during the second and the differences were slight. It mostly comes down to preference so I'd recommend you ride the bike you find most comfortable for such a trip and pack accordingly.

You can always ride the 520 with the trailer.

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Old 11-30-19, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by djb
heck, if your base weight from hiking is that low, why even consider the trailer)
IKR. IIRC, a B.O.B. weighs in at 13 lbs. without the bag.
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Old 12-01-19, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
IKR. IIRC, a B.O.B. weighs in at 13 lbs. without the bag.
with only 12 pounds of gear, no reason to add 13 pounds of trailer....plus dry bag, plus spare tube.
no point in adding the weight of racks and panniers, either. as others suggested, small bikepacking
bags will do.

then it comes down to terrain. the 520 gearing will get you through long days of mountain passes
with ease, and the bigger tires will greatly increase the options for rough roads and off pavement
riding.

which bike is more comfortable for long days? remember, you can always put thinner tires on
the 520 if you're staying on pavement.
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Old 12-01-19, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Fullcount
i have to so more homework on this rotational mass factor. Never thought of this, but makes some sense. Like I said early on, the 520 has 700 x 38c tires and the Domane has 700 x 25c tires. Question, should I be pulling the wheels and weighing them on each bike set up - rim, tire and all and then make this comparison with the addition of the trailer wheel? Need help in quantifying what you are saying.
You are way over thinking this. Go on a weekend tour with each setup. Go with what you like. Be sure to include some steep hills as the 29 inches is on the high side. Way back 40 years ago, it was on the lower side but not now. Realistically, a week or so into the tour, you will not be thinking about rotational mass and/or skewer weight. More like, should I get the strawberry or huckleberry ice cream.

Tailwinds, John
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Old 12-01-19, 09:33 AM
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Hiking base weight and biking base weight are different things. You have to pack some essentials for the bike--tools and spares. Packs are heavier duty, more hardware. And clothing can be different.

When I made the change from long distance hiking (triple crown from '04 to '08) to bike touring, my base weight changed from about eight pounds to fifteen pounds, nearly doubled. Still, the OP's hiking weight of 12 pounds means an easy load to carry with two panniers or a bikepacking set-up, depending on how much you want to spend on packs.
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Old 12-01-19, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by djb
heck, if your base weight from hiking is that low, why even consider the trailer? You surely must be able to bikepack bag all that stuff on the road bike. I also didnt read properly that you already have both bikes and trailer, but if the Domane is comfortable for you and it works as is, fit wise and gearing wise, go with what works for you--there certainly isn't a right or wrong answer.
Given how low your packing weight is, and that you have experience hiking, a large seat bag, the ones that stick out and upwards, with a handlebar bag, and you probably fit all your stuff in these and maybe a gas tank type thing and or frame bag.

have fun no matter, but to this spectator, the trailer seems like overkill (and more weight)
The base weight is for hiking and does not include the stuff that will be needed that is bike specific (tools, spare tubes, riding cloths, street cloths, etc.). When you are hiking, you may only have one set of cloths extra and what you are wearing. And there is the bulk factor that may not work as well with bike packing bags,. but not to say impossible. I will do some research in this area. Thanks for the input.

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Old 12-01-19, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TulsaJohn
You are way over thinking this. Go on a weekend tour with each setup. Go with what you like. Be sure to include some steep hills as the 29 inches is on the high side. Way back 40 years ago, it was on the lower side but not now. Realistically, a week or so into the tour, you will not be thinking about rotational mass and/or skewer weight. More like, should I get the strawberry or huckleberry ice cream.


Tailwinds, John

^This. Try both setups and see what you like.

Also- the correct answer is "huckleberry"!


My post about wheel weights wasn't to encourage more analysis, it was talking about how we as cyclists tend to overanalyze everything, and if one was going to be gram counting on base weights to this degree, to remember, it's not just a 25c set of tires vs a 38c set of tires, it's a (25c set plus a 16 or 20 inch 1.75? rear tire) vs. (a set of 38c's.)

If you really are interested in which bike is better, experiment with both unloaded, to see if you can even spot a difference/ have a preference, and then experiment with them loaded, to see how they do. A variable other than weight might very well tip the decision one way/another (see below). Then make the decision.

Edit- while re-reading this thread, I really liked the post about the "practicality" of the touring bike/ vs the bob in the real world- for example, as mentioned, bringing the bike into a hotel or something at night. I have quietly brought (and yes- in some cases snuck) my bike into hotels and put it into elevators on more than one occasion. The bob would complicate that for me.

Just get out and ride!

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Old 12-01-19, 09:01 PM
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And when this topic comes up, along with bikepacking stufff comes the suggestion of lightweight panniers like Ariel dry lites. About a pound, 25 litres, waterproof, you could use any light rear rack. I have a pair, would be great for a light setup.

lots of options here. And non bike clothes can be very light and compact.
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Old 12-02-19, 11:15 AM
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I think your saddles are a good choice but you know best since you have experienced them. I use the B-17 on my touring bike.

My point however is the position of your body. I think others have commented about this. And, I note in your picture you do not have fenders. Not required but they are preferable.

Having said all this, when I started touring it was credit card with a handlebar bag on my Trek 2120. The tour was typically 7 days not more than 10. I would go around 80 miles, sometimes more or less. My position on the 2120 bike is a little more straight up than my Domane. So, depending on the length of the tour, daily miles and time of year, I expect the Domane could work. And as others have said, take a few day test tour or even one long one. You'll succeed either way and perhaps sacrifice some comfort. But, you will have answered your question.
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Old 12-03-19, 12:51 PM
  #24  
oldgeezerjeff
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12 pounds?! Between extra clothes, lunch, thermos of coffee and my laptop, I carry more than that on my daily commute into work!
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Old 12-03-19, 02:06 PM
  #25  
djb
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Originally Posted by oldgeezerjeff
12 pounds?! Between extra clothes, lunch, thermos of coffee and my laptop, I carry more than that on my daily commute into work!
you know, every time I read of the folks here who pack very lightly, I always chuckle and actually think the same thing. My lightest commute is one rear Ortlieb, a hefty U lock, an additional long coil lock, my usual netbag of crap-wallet, this, that, that and this, and then a lunch, regular toolkit of stuff, a spare tube, a pump, and then some extra clothes, sometimes more than other times----so yup, like you, easily the same or more.

but hey, hats off to you folks who pack really light!
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