Spoke tension meter: Park TM-1 or SuperB TB-ST12?
06-19-17, 10:39 AM
#26
don't try this at home.
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Interesting. I wonder what's causing the difference between mine and yours? (I'm not making it up either, I've done the same test with 3 or 4 different types of spokes, I just make sure to always release the handle in the same manner to get consistent readings.) Those readings seem super low though, are those spokes very thin in the "short" direction? A reading of 7 is below the scale for most of the spokes on the conversion table sheet that comes with the tool.
https://www.parktool.com/assets/doc/p...conv-table.pdf
I've only ever used steel round spokes (sometimes butted) so my readings are more often up ~20 on the scale.(For fronts or DS) Then again, I'm a beginner wheel builder so I may be tensioning the hell out of my spokes, but when I tried lower tension I just lost the wheel true after a week or so of riding and the spokes started to loosen.
https://www.parktool.com/assets/doc/p...conv-table.pdf
I've only ever used steel round spokes (sometimes butted) so my readings are more often up ~20 on the scale.(For fronts or DS) Then again, I'm a beginner wheel builder so I may be tensioning the hell out of my spokes, but when I tried lower tension I just lost the wheel true after a week or so of riding and the spokes started to loosen.
The on-line chart you linked has many more columns that the plastic coated chart that came with my tool (many years ago.)
The CX Ray spokes are just 2.1mm x 1.0 mm. From the Park Tool chart, page 2, column 4:
a reading of 15 is 119 kgf.
a reading of 07 is 57 kgf.
The front wheel is mostly between 11 and 12: that's 81 to 89 kgf.
This is the factory tension from HED. I did some very minor fine tuning to slightly improve the side-to-side truing in the first year.
These are with the tire inflated. That compresses the rim enough to reduce the tension!
These HED Ardennes+ rims must be fairly stiff, since the inflated tire readings went down about .25 = about 3 kgf on the drive side, and down .5 = 2 to 3 kgf on the non-drive side. (At 90 psi with 26mm wide tires.) My older rims changed quite a bit more than that when the tire was inflated -- enough to make me think the nipples might be unwinding when I checked it on the bike later. (So I removed the tire, put the wheel back on the stand, and checked again -- back to the original readings, d'oh.)
Ovalized spokes will bend more compared to round spokes for the same tension, measuring on the flat side, so the tool readings are lower.
It's interesting to look at the chart, and see how the different spokes are way offset on the tool numbers -- some spokes are very stiff.
Last edited by rm -rf; 06-19-17 at 11:06 AM.
06-19-17, 10:41 AM
#27
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Taiwan does not import Chinese goods. The majority of the Taiwanese economy and, believe it or not, their foreign policy and national defense philosophy is based on cycling components, goods and tools. They honestly believe that the Western world love their Taiwanese cycling goods to the point that they will defend them from Mainland China in that messy situation. It's actually their official articulated position. Taiwan makes most of the high end components and frames in the world. A lot more than people realize. Very few things are "branded"!though like SuperB tools or Giant bikes or Microshift components. Mostly they make tools and bikes and bits for other labels.
A lot of quality SuperB and IceTools (Lifu) are outright better tools than Park makes, and significantly better value.
SuperB has been making tools for years for other labels. Think of them as Giant right after they stopped building for Specialized.
I like many of my SuperB tools better than my Park tools. I have the Park tensiometer. I would never recommend it. If you can't afford a good DT analog or digital tensiometer, I'd recommend a used Wheelsmith tensiometer. Pay the $20 to WheelFanatyk to get a custom calibration sheet. You'll end up with a more accurate and consistent reading than with the Park/SuperB design.
If you want to get the Park design, pass on the Park tool, get the SuperB instead. I would.
There are some bike tools I would never trade/sell because they are rare, interesting, quality tools, or well made and functional. I'd trade my Park tensiometer for a needed bike tool at a swap without thinking twice. I'd either go cheaper with the SuperB, go vintage and more accurate with the Wheelsmith, of give into the lust for a DT tensiometer.
SuperB makes the best Mavic hub pin tool in the business. Metal with a yellow rubber sheath. Makes the actual black plastic Mavic pin tool look like a toy.
A lot of quality SuperB and IceTools (Lifu) are outright better tools than Park makes, and significantly better value.
SuperB has been making tools for years for other labels. Think of them as Giant right after they stopped building for Specialized.
I like many of my SuperB tools better than my Park tools. I have the Park tensiometer. I would never recommend it. If you can't afford a good DT analog or digital tensiometer, I'd recommend a used Wheelsmith tensiometer. Pay the $20 to WheelFanatyk to get a custom calibration sheet. You'll end up with a more accurate and consistent reading than with the Park/SuperB design.
If you want to get the Park design, pass on the Park tool, get the SuperB instead. I would.
There are some bike tools I would never trade/sell because they are rare, interesting, quality tools, or well made and functional. I'd trade my Park tensiometer for a needed bike tool at a swap without thinking twice. I'd either go cheaper with the SuperB, go vintage and more accurate with the Wheelsmith, of give into the lust for a DT tensiometer.
SuperB makes the best Mavic hub pin tool in the business. Metal with a yellow rubber sheath. Makes the actual black plastic Mavic pin tool look like a toy.
article:https://www.forbes.com/global/2001/0402/024.html
06-19-17, 11:11 AM
#28
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Add me to the column of Park Tools spoke tension gauge users. I've built a couple simple wheels without it, but wanted to be more quantitative when I build a dished rear wheel for my Airborne. I was able to determine the average (mean) tension and compare each spoke's tension to that. I got them all within 10% of the mean. This may not be strictly necessary, but I have more confidence that my spoke tensions are in an acceptable range for the type of spokes used. I got the tool on sale for about $50 and it's a nicely-made thing. It does not read directly in units of tension; the scale readings must be compared to a chart according to the type of spoke.
Steve
Steve
06-19-17, 01:47 PM
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No response yet on my email to the maker of mine.
06-19-17, 05:03 PM
#30
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...I don't usually correct people here, and certainly not you.
, but I'm relatively sure the original design credit for this sort of spoke tensiometer goes to the late Jobst Brandt. And yeah, there's a Taiwan made one floating around that sells for a price mere mortals can afford and it seems to work well once you get the calibration down.
06-19-17, 10:37 PM
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Perhaps someone who has the Fanatyk unit can answer this, but the "no-name" unit I bought, the "plunger" rides on linear bearings to minimize friction; is the Fanatyk the same, or is it just riding in a slot? Like I said, the fellow who made mine was a real master machinist with access to CNC equipment. It's a beautiful tool.
No response yet on my email to the maker of mine.
No response yet on my email to the maker of mine.
Guess I could e-mail the Fanatyks.
06-20-17, 03:46 AM
#34
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06-20-17, 01:47 PM
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That's cool.
We emailed back and forth (in English) a number of times before he made mine....no problem with that. There were a number of options in terms of the brand and type of dial indicator. And one thing to make you aware of, (which I did not really care about,)was the tensioners he listed on eBay were plain alloy like mine and he also had one listed that was anodized in bright orange. So if you want a color, (or black) be sure to ask about that. Let me know how you make out.
06-20-17, 09:23 PM
#37
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Any meter that measures by deflection is just a guess at tension,like a torque wrench.....Just an educated guess.
Actual tension is read by stretch of the fastener.
None of them do that,so it doesn't really matter which one you get.
If it can repeat a reading,that's good enough.
I made mine from plywood ,a radial spring,couple pieces of nylon and a scale.....does what it's suppose to do,makes spokes on 1 side even.
Actual tension is read by stretch of the fastener.
None of them do that,so it doesn't really matter which one you get.
If it can repeat a reading,that's good enough.
I made mine from plywood ,a radial spring,couple pieces of nylon and a scale.....does what it's suppose to do,makes spokes on 1 side even.
Last edited by Booger1; 06-20-17 at 09:29 PM.
06-20-17, 10:30 PM
#38
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Any meter that measures by deflection is just a guess at tension,like a torque wrench.....Just an educated guess.
Actual tension is read by stretch of the fastener.
None of them do that,so it doesn't really matter which one you get.
If it can repeat a reading,that's good enough.
I made mine from plywood ,a radial spring,couple pieces of nylon and a scale.....does what it's suppose to do,makes spokes on 1 side even.
Actual tension is read by stretch of the fastener.
None of them do that,so it doesn't really matter which one you get.
If it can repeat a reading,that's good enough.
I made mine from plywood ,a radial spring,couple pieces of nylon and a scale.....does what it's suppose to do,makes spokes on 1 side even.
As long as friction is eliminated and a decent length of spoke used, so there's not too much bending (so thickness of the spoke messes up with measurement), it's pretty accurate.
06-20-17, 10:54 PM
#39
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have a 40 year old pair of wheels straight as an arrow, built by counting turns and plucking spokes..
06-21-17, 04:57 AM
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06-21-17, 05:30 AM
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However, building a wheel without another with a similar rim and spokes for comparison, it is hard to find the optimal tension. Only with trial and error. Tension meter speeds the process up. IMO it is also more accurate than the plucking method.
You can build a perfectly fine wheel without a truing stand and dish meter - it's just a lot quicker and easier with the proper tools.
06-21-17, 10:57 PM
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Perhaps someone who has the Fanatyk unit can answer this, but the "no-name" unit I bought, the "plunger" rides on linear bearings to minimize friction; is the Fanatyk the same, or is it just riding in a slot? Like I said, the fellow who made mine was a real master machinist with access to CNC equipment. It's a beautiful tool.
No response yet on my email to the maker of mine.
No response yet on my email to the maker of mine.
"After many years of study and use, we are satisfied with a system that is closer to floating in its movement. No bearings. As the parts are barely touching, friction can be close to zero.
Bearings to fit this mechanism are prone to increase friction although they can also handle heavier loads. But there are no heavy loads. In such a mechanism, the movement can become over constrained, meaning that parts depend on each other too much and very small tolerance errors can make big problems."
So no sliding bearings, just rolling ones for the spoke pivots (at both ends).
06-21-17, 11:12 PM
#43
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I use the Park meter to check the overall tension, mostly to make sure the RR isn't too tight or the LR too loose. Before that I used similar wheels and just plucked spokes. But if I am going to a new pattern, wheel size or spoke gauge, I don't have a good reference for that first one.
For all the rest of the truing, I pluck spokes. Fast, reliable, easy. A wheel with even spoke sounds, tensions within limits right and left, spokes not wound up, stresses relieved and reasonably true is a wheel that will roll well for a long time. (People judge by the true, but that is probably the least important of these five things.)
Ben
For all the rest of the truing, I pluck spokes. Fast, reliable, easy. A wheel with even spoke sounds, tensions within limits right and left, spokes not wound up, stresses relieved and reasonably true is a wheel that will roll well for a long time. (People judge by the true, but that is probably the least important of these five things.)
Ben
06-22-17, 08:03 AM
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Got a response from Fanatyk. The response:
"After many years of study and use, we are satisfied with a system that is closer to floating in its movement. No bearings. As the parts are barely touching, friction can be close to zero.
Bearings to fit this mechanism are prone to increase friction although they can also handle heavier loads. But there are no heavy loads. In such a mechanism, the movement can become over constrained, meaning that parts depend on each other too much and very small tolerance errors can make big problems."
So no sliding bearings, just rolling ones for the spoke pivots (at both ends).
"After many years of study and use, we are satisfied with a system that is closer to floating in its movement. No bearings. As the parts are barely touching, friction can be close to zero.
Bearings to fit this mechanism are prone to increase friction although they can also handle heavier loads. But there are no heavy loads. In such a mechanism, the movement can become over constrained, meaning that parts depend on each other too much and very small tolerance errors can make big problems."
So no sliding bearings, just rolling ones for the spoke pivots (at both ends).
Inquire with Filip for him to explain his approach. Perhaps in your native Serbian you will get a better understanding than what I tried to explain.
06-22-17, 08:05 AM
#45
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He also makes a model without the bearing. Since the bearing itself is very expensive (about 200 euro is the regular price).
The most important thing for me is I'm not paying for taxes this way, while shipping costs will be down to a few euros.
06-22-17, 10:30 AM
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Yup, from what I understood, he uses a high quality sliding bearing that works perfectly.
He also makes a model without the bearing. Since the bearing itself is very expensive (about 200 euro is the regular price).
The most important thing for me is I'm not paying for taxes this way, while shipping costs will be down to a few euros.
He also makes a model without the bearing. Since the bearing itself is very expensive (about 200 euro is the regular price).
The most important thing for me is I'm not paying for taxes this way, while shipping costs will be down to a few euros.
All I can say is that there are some great tools in this world, and then there are tools that do the job, and are a thing of absolute beauty of mechanical engineering and workmanship. Campy tools of the 70's were kind of like that. While Filip's workmanship is a very different style than Campy's, (a bit less "soft" edged,) it's certainly brilliant.
06-22-17, 11:37 AM
#47
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All I can say is that there are some great tools in this world, and then there are tools that do the job, and are a thing of absolute beauty of mechanical engineering and workmanship. Campy tools of the 70's were kind of like that. While Filip's workmanship is a very different style than Campy's, (a bit less "soft" edged,) it's certainly brilliant.
Just deciding whether to go with the slider bearing or not.
If the simpler version works well and is durable, I'm more for it.
06-25-17, 07:37 PM
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All I can say is that there are some great tools in this world, and then there are tools that do the job, and are a thing of absolute beauty of mechanical engineering and workmanship. Campy tools of the 70's were kind of like that. While Filip's workmanship is a very different style than Campy's, (a bit less "soft" edged,) it's certainly brilliant.
06-26-17, 09:01 AM
#50
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I've never seen Cobra tools for sale. Do they make any decent tools today? Can you provide a link?
Also, just because someone made good tools at one time, does not mean they are doing so today. All you need to do is look at a new Chicom made Craftsman combination wrench. Not that Craftsman tools were ever the pinnacle of quality, but they were decent at a competitive price. They are useless garbage now. The design and specification for the company hiring the job out can determine the end result. The Chicoms are certainly capable of producing some decent tools, the best of which seem to come from Hong Kong. But unfortunately, most tools outsourced to China are inferior to the American or European tools they replaced because they are produced to very strict price points. It's a sad trend that is across the entire tool industry.